Graeme1938

1928 1929 1930 Chrysler 72 75 and 77 Alloy Cylinder Heads not Red Head

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19 hours ago, Graeme C - Silverwings said:

  The oil pump can also be swapped for one with Ford V8 gears. 

Do you have more info on that conversion? I am struggling with disappointing oil pressure when hot engine on all my flathead Chryslers.

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23 hours ago, Graeme C - Silverwings said:

Hi Graeme

It's good to know that Ray's cylinder head patterns have survived. I have used two of Ray's aluminium sandwich heads over the years including one which was a prototype casting which he sent over to me to see whether I could use it. 

I first met Ray when he came to Western Australia in 1992 to compete with his 1929 Chrysler 75. He won that event and when I had my own Chrysler to restore three years later, I went to Ray to ask his advice.  He'd put a four speed 'box and a Ford diff into his 75 (which he later removed).

I race a 1927 (1928 model) Chrysler 72 Sports Roadster with a Chrysler 77 motor built as a basic replica of a car called Silverwings.  I most recently raced it at the Red Dust Revival 2019 at Lake Perkolilli in Western Australia (www.motoringpast.com.au).  The car was completed in 1997 and in about 2005 I put my first Ray Jones head on it.  The greatest challenge was not having to regularly replace head gaskets.  When Ray went to Mille Miglia and the Le Mans Classic he always took spare heads and gaskets.  For reliability, I'm now back to a standard, shaved head but another hotter engine I am building will have one of Ray's heads on it.

I guess this is a bit of background to indicate that I've spent a lot of time over the years trying to make my Chrysler go faster.  At the moment I am running a set of tuned extractors Ray gave me to see whether I could get some power improvements with them. He had them made for a set of SU carbs he put on his car. The pipes had to come out and up and over the SUs.  They look weird but it's all just about having fun anyway.  Extractors like this definitely provide more power over the standard manifold. On a right hand drive car like mine, the steering column and the fact that the intakes are under the exhaust ports makes it very tight to get that hot exhaust gas efficiently out of the engine bay.

Yes, Ray's found that at over about 8 or 8.5:1 compression there wasn't any point in lifting the compression any higher.  Also, he experimented, and so have we with what to do with the two intakes which limit the "air pump".  He tried all sorts of carb combos. I am running with a couple if English Zenith updrafts which were sold in Australia as a replacement carb for Buicks.  They've always been good but it gets down to how much air can you get into the engine and not have it migrate between the cylinders.  Our latest engine has baffles inside the block to see whether this, along with the overlap, can work better. That then led to the obvious solution which is supercharging.  I have Ray's bitsnpieces in my shed from his work on using Wade superchargers from a Commer "Knocker" engine.  I've never got around to finishing off this side of things but it seems like obvious way of getting more horsepower from the Chrysler engine which is too constricted on the intake side.

There are other ways to make the engines a bet more spirited.  The counterbalanced crank is heavy and some weight can be taken off the flywheel.  The oil pump can also be swapped for one with Ford V8 gears.  On the engine we've been building for many years, it has a new oil pump made by Ray to give more volume and reliable pressure.

Ray really was the master of making the 1920s chrysler engines reach their full potential.  He once gave me his 75 to drive through Sydney while he had something to do in his garage.  The cars was sensational. I couldn't  believe how free-revving it was compared to my car.

Ray's passing was a great loss.  He had experimented with just abut everything to do with a vintage Chrysler engine. 

Congratulations on making Ray's heads available again. 

All the best

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

 

I’ve read a number of the articles on your Chrysler Silverwings and racing at Lake Perkolilli - Another great large sports Chrysler. Plenty of WA history. 

There’s lots of photos of Chrysler’s racing on Gerringong Beach over here. Generally the races were won by one of the Bugatti’s if they stayed together but the Chrysler’s were always on the podium. 

Yes Rays car was very well sorted. 

Out of interest have you compared your early Vintage Racing Chrysler Head with the later manufactured one. The pattern we have is the modified/ ultimate one. I’ve got some of the development pieces from earlier ones. 

I’m going to visit an owner who has completed in excess of 40,000 trouble free miles in a very rapid car with one of these ultimate heads cast from the pattern we have. 

I’ll start a different thread in the next couple of weeks regarding his efforts to get them to breath. I have the cast port divider patterns but I’m not sure we’re ready to go there yet. 

You’re right a supercharged big engine would really produce some power however at the moment we are going the naturally aspirated route. Be a great power plant in a Group J special though and hard to catch. 

If you’re willing I’d be very interested to talk to you to learn from your experiences. No sense in not using all the available resources and knowledge. 

Regards,

Graeme Louk

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4 hours ago, Narve N said:

Do you have more info on that conversion? I am struggling with disappointing oil pressure when hot engine on all my flathead Chryslers.

Hi Narve,

These are the ultimate patterns for the High Volume Oil Pump. It’s designed to take the gears from a high volume Small Block Chev Oil Pump. 

When we start manufacturing these I’ll start another thread because it’ll get lost in the Head Thread. 

Regards,

Graeme Louk

PS My wife doesn’t think they belong on the table cloth. I love her but women don’t get it sometimes. 

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14 hours ago, Graeme C - Silverwings said:

What oil pressure are you running?

 

I am hoping for half way up the scale on idle (= 30 lbs for my 1929 and 40 lbs for my 1940 with 323 cui), which they will do when cold. But as soon as the engine comes up to running temperature pressure drops to maybe 10 for the 1929 and 20 for the 1940, which is unnerving. I swapped the straight 40 oil for 20W-50 which did improve pressure but may be did not improve lubrication. Now I am entertaining all tips for better pressure, and intend to redo one oil pump this winter with close attention to clearances.

 

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Picture is celebrating my first 1000 km with the blue Series 65 Roadster and displays less than 20 lbs while underway (40 km/h = 1000 RPM?). Observers can note that the stupid gas gauge, although with a replica sending unit and a NOS instrument, denies to function as most of them do. I also need to clean up my cable toggles, decide what to do with the fascia finish, and get a ON/OFF plate for the ignition switch.

 

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The idle pressure is not so important. 10 psi is OK - there is no load. But of course this also means that if you drive off in high gear at low revs, you are compromising the bearings as there is not much pressure.

 

I don't think many manuals give an idle pressure, just a running pressure. I find a 5W-40 semi-synthetic CI-4 oil is good; the cold pressure is not really high and the running pressure is about what they say. Idle is 5 to 10 depending on running time - lower with longer running and higher temperature.

 

My gas gauge earthed through the fuel line. When I put a filter in the line with rubber hose connections, I had to add an earth wire to the tank (under a sender screw).

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Hi Graeme

I am, of course, happy to share information. I've been running my Chrysler in regularity events since 1997, including take it to Lake Perkolilli five times.  There is a great difference between regular "high speed" driving and racing as I am sure you appreciate.  I haven't compared the heads I have.  Our machine shop has both of them at the moment so I will take a look when I get a minute to go over there.

The old rule is that 10psi is required for every 1000rpm but it is more about volume than pressure.  I don't think people with old Chrysler engines have anything to worry about with low oil pressure as it only becomes an issue when you get to about 4,000rpm with the stock oil pump.  Rarely would most cars driven on the road get near that.

It's good to see Ray's casting patterns have survived and they are going to be re-used.

We have baffled the current engine we are building but, to be frank, I think once you get high comp head, twin carbs, lightened flywheel and good extractors, the gains are minimal for the amount of work required.  The size of the valves then becomes a limiting factor for the breathing.  There is no space for significantly larger valves.  I have a Rajo powered Ford Model T with a BB head and it has massive valves.  Maybe someone should find how to graft an overhead valve head to a Chrysler 77 engine. That would transform the engine!  Shame Rajo or Fronty never made one!  The Chrysler has a very well designed bottom end so it could cope with the extra power.

Graeme

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3 hours ago, Graeme C - Silverwings said:

Hi Graeme

I am, of course, happy to share information. I've been running my Chrysler in regularity events since 1997, including take it to Lake Perkolilli five times.  There is a great difference between regular "high speed" driving and racing as I am sure you appreciate.  I haven't compared the heads I have.  Our machine shop has both of them at the moment so I will take a look when I get a minute to go over there.

The old rule is that 10psi is required for every 1000rpm but it is more about volume than pressure.  I don't think people with old Chrysler engines have anything to worry about with low oil pressure as it only becomes an issue when you get to about 4,000rpm with the stock oil pump.  Rarely would most cars driven on the road get near that.

It's good to see Ray's casting patterns have survived and they are going to be re-used.

We have baffled the current engine we are building but, to be frank, I think once you get high comp head, twin carbs, lightened flywheel and good extractors, the gains are minimal for the amount of work required.  The size of the valves then becomes a limiting factor for the breathing.  There is no space for significantly larger valves.  I have a Rajo powered Ford Model T with a BB head and it has massive valves.  Maybe someone should find how to graft an overhead valve head to a Chrysler 77 engine. That would transform the engine!  Shame Rajo or Fronty never made one!  The Chrysler has a very well designed bottom end so it could cope with the extra power.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

i know he never reached his magic number goal of 200 hp although he got close.

I saw the last engine Ray had anything to do with. It had large valves in it. 

I have most of the patterns for the inlet port modification that he was planning. I just have to locate a scrap block I can cut up to work out what he was going to do. That’s a way down the track though. 

For the moment it’s getting the heads out there. 

Regards,

Graeme 

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I am also very interested in an Alloy head for a 1929 Chrysler 75

I have a red head that has a crack or 2  so a replacement is required.

I am making a twin down draft inlet manifold but unsure what diameter choke size would be best.

The car is to be used for endurance rallies and hopefully Peking Paris in 2022

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Graeme - Are you able to update on the production of the "Ray Jones" heads?   My father was a long term friend of Ray's - he purchased one of Ray's earlier sandwich heads and was in the process of reconditioning the engine when he died some time back.  We have not been able to find the engine nor the head.  I am just in the process of deciding to finish the restoration of the car or not (with another engine) - and having one of Ray's heads would probably be the clincher for me. 

 

I visited Ray a bit when I was living in Sydney and I was fortunate to experience his 75 first hand with a terrific drive through the suburbs with him - I was also lucky enough to drive the "Castaing 70 Chrysler" before it left the shores too.

 

Thanks  David

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