Starter problem Buick super 1949

[Selim]

I have a problem with this part (plastic pad) in it that keeps melting or getting busted every now and then. Can’t find the correct part to repair it. Photos attached. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Selim (see edit history)

[gdmn852]

Hello the starter on my 49 was changed to a high torque when they changed it to 12 volt. Don’t know if that would be a option for you.The starter I mentioned is available from CARS Buick parts from New Jersey or Bobs from California.Good luck. Gary 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 minute ago, gdmn852 said:

Hello the starter on my 49 was changed to a high torque when they changed it to 12 volt. Don’t know if that would be a option for you.The starter I mentioned is available from CARS Buick parts from New Jersey or Bobs from California.Good luck. Gary 

 

 I have one of those. Great modification.

 

  Ben

[Selim]

Thanks

my car is also converted to 12 v. 

can anyone provide the link of this item in order for me to purchase it 

thanks

Edited November 4, 2019 by Selim (see edit history)

[Selim]

R those 2 items attached in photos correct for my car? Ignition switch and starter ..

correct for Buick super 1949?

 

[gdmn852]

If your car is a Super model 50 you will want the S390 starter. I did have to replace the key switch also but can’t remember if it was from CARS or Bobs.it had the correct chrome plate where the key goes in but you will have to use the lettered plate that goes behind it .enclosed a photo of the dashboard don’t have one of the switch 

[Selim]

4 hours ago, gdmn852 said:

If your car is a Super model 50 you will want the S390 starter. I did have to replace the key switch also but can’t remember if it was from CARS or Bobs.it had the correct chrome plate where the key goes in but you will have to use the lettered plate that goes behind it .enclosed a photo of the dashboard don’t have one of the switch 

Thanks gdmn 

indeed I need the S 390 for the super model as my car is super convertible 1949.

should I order the starter from this site? Sorry but I have no experience, and the advice I need is for someone to send me links for the correct required 2 items (ignition switch and starter) and I will order them cos I am afraid to order wrong items and ship them

for instance is this the starter I need? 
https://bobsautomobilia.com/starters-and-parts/1936-53-starter-w-soleniod-for-248-and-263-motor.-.-st-12s/

or should I stick to the S 390? Which is better?

and also is this the right ignition switch ? 
https://bobsautomobilia.com/dash-and-steering-control-items/1941-53-ignition-switch-cylinder-and-key-.-il-413/

thanks

Edited November 7, 2019 by Selim (see edit history)

[certjeff1]

If the piece that is melting is the one circled in your third picture it is not plastic it is copper. Melting copper can be caused by poor system voltage. There is something wrong with your car causing this. Simply changing to a different starter will not fix your melting movable contact disc it will continue to happen. Since your car has been changed to 12v you can get a 12v solenoid for a 1953 Buick along with a the plunger assembly and install it on your existing starter. And then you need to run some voltage drop tests, amperage draw tests.

[gdmn852]

CARS (908)369 3666 www.oldbuickparts.com.                       BobsAutomobia (805)434 2963.     bobsautomoblia.com                           If your car has been converted to 12 volt,you maybe better to go with the high torque starter.Either one of the 2 websites should be able to tell you the correct one to use if you give them year and model of your car,1949 Super series or model 50.

[gdmn852]

Bobs shows it as ST 125 1936-53 starter for 248-263 motor $320.00

[Matt Harwood]

That's not a part that's failing, there's an issue elsewhere that's causing that problem. Melted parts suggest either too much resistance or too much current trying to pass through a circuit, which is typically caused by a short to ground somewhere. Replacing parts will cure it temporarily, but until you find what's generating all that heat, it will keep happening. There may be internal issues with the starter which make it harder to turn, which draws excessive current. There may be an internal short. There may be an incorrect ground. It's hard to say with electrical systems and the only solution is a lot of tedious testing and diagnostics. Now that it's converted to 12 volts, the factory service manual won't be much help--did you do the conversion or did you buy it with a 12 volt electrical system already in it? If you didn't do the work, you're going to have to trace every wire that other guy installed and see what it's doing and where it's going and whether it's big enough for its job. I just repaired a car that was using a 14-gauge wire from the ignition switch to power the starter-sized hydraulic window/seat/top motor under the hood. It almost instantly liquefied that wire's insulation and then started on the copper wire inside. Copper has a high melting point--seeing it turn to liquid was extraordinary. The ignition key got hot enough to burn my son's fingers pretty badly.

 

If there's one place hacks love to do their thing, it's in the wiring department and an amateur 12-volt conversion is like a supercharger for bad ideas and bad science in an electrical system.

 

You're just looking at the symptom. You need to find the cause.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[certjeff1]

Matt is absolutely right you have to go looking for the cause. Most 6v cars get converted do to complaints of poor or slow cranking speeds. Not all of these problems are the starters fault nor are they the fault of 6v electrical systems. A great many are do to other issues in the system, like cables as an example. The slow cranking speed gets fixed while the cause gets masked by the 12v conversion. It isn't until months or even years or ownership change that the real cause gets fixed. Whatever you decide to do with the starter is up to you. But you need to figure out what is causing your problem.

Edited November 7, 2019 by certjeff1 (see edit history)

[gdmn852]

Hello yes I agree with you on the “problem “of 6 volt systems,too small of cables.when I bought my 49 it was already changed to 12 volt ,something I wouldn’t do my self .I also have an earlier post on mine with the high torque starter not shutting off due to bad relay. I also agree that with all the modifications makes the shop manuals less useful. I wish I have looked closer when I bought mine took awhile to sort out a number of issues.The high torque starter maybe a good option due to being 12 volt, and also checking current draw ,etc.you never know what you are going to find.

[Selim]

Thank u guys for the insights.

actually the copper part never melts. It’s the plastic thing (don’t know exact name of it) that is in top and below the copper part. (Attached is a photo shown on it the exact part that get busted all the time). That is the part that melt or get busted. Actually it’s not a correct plastic part as we try to get it from similar starters. 

[Matt Harwood]

There shouldn't be enough resistance or current to melt plastic, either. That's a warning sign that something else is going on. I can crank my 1941 Buick Limited for a minute straight and still put my fingers on the cables and starter connections. They shouldn't get seriously hot.

[Bloo]

36 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

There shouldn't be enough resistance or current to melt plastic, either. That's a warning sign that something else is going on.

 

THIS! ^^

 

I have not heard of this problem on 12v conversions, although it could be the explanation if the starter is still 6 volt. Your copper looks nice and clean, so there shouldn't be excessive resistance there. Heat comes from resistance, resistance causes a voltage drop that can be measured with a multimeter.

 

One thing I would check for sure is the continuity of the solenoid windings. There are two, one that gets shorted by the disc when it hits and one that doesn't.

 

With the solenoid all apart like that, test. Both windings will START at a point where they get kicked by that little relay. One will end at the copper bolt that connects to the starter motor, and the other will end at ground where you cant see it. Check continuity of both. If the one from the little relay to ground is open, the copper disc will just bounce, the starter will run slow and sound like it is grinding, and everything will get really hot. 12v could certainly burn that coil out. It probably would sooner or later.

 

Check that the linkage that pulls the gear out is adjusted correctly too. The measurement is in the shop manual.

 

P.S. One more thought: are you sure that thing is assembled correctly? The solenoid will push the pin as far as it pushes it no matter what. The copper hits, and when it does, ANOTHER spring has some give to let the disc push back a little. This is so there will still be tension as the copper wears. If the disc did not have that "give" for some reason, something would have to break.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Selim]

This car has been converted to 12v long before I got it.

I explained as much as I could to a friend here what u guys r telling me. He told me that the electricity of this car in simple terms comes from battery of the car through a cable to the starter then the starter plays as distributor via relays around 6 that come out of it to supply electricity to other parts of car like lights, distributor , .... he suggests that if we make an external station that distribute electricity to other parts of the car may reduce load on starter and therefore solve the issue of over load on distributor . And that a cable from battery to starter will stop there. And have another station , other than starter to distribute electricity to other parts of the car. Does that make any sense to u?

[gdmn852]

Do you have a ground cable on the engine? I would check the starter has a good ground I have one on starter mount to bell house connected to frame ground.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

45 minutes ago, Selim said:

This car has been converted to 12v long before I got it.

I explained as much as I could to a friend here what u guys r telling me. He told me that the electricity of this car in simple terms comes from battery of the car through a cable to the starter then the starter plays as distributor via relays around 6 that come out of it to supply electricity to other parts of car like lights, distributor , .... he suggests that if we make an external station that distribute electricity to other parts of the car may reduce load on starter and therefore solve the issue of over load on distributor . And that a cable from battery to starter will stop there. And have another station , other than starter to distribute electricity to other parts of the car. Does that make any sense to u?

 

 Should not be necessary. Will not hurt.  Many cars have an "external station" as he is talking about.

  I think some of the connections near the plastic are not clean/tight enough , causing too much resistance and too much heat.

 

  Ben

[certjeff1]

Ok so the part that melts is the plastic insulator for the movable contact. Since the car has been converted to 12v I would leave the original solenoid alone. Get a solenoid for a 1953-1956 Buick along with the plunger and linkage. This will be a 12v setup and they are more readily available then the solenoid you are currently using. Once you get that then you can run tests to see what is causing the problem.

[Selim]

3 hours ago, certjeff1 said:

Ok so the part that melts is the plastic insulator for the movable contact. Since the car has been converted to 12v I would leave the original solenoid alone. Get a solenoid for a 1953-1956 Buick along with the plunger and linkage. This will be a 12v setup and they are more readily available then the solenoid you are currently using. Once you get that then you can run tests to see what is causing the problem.

I can’t find solenoid 1953-1956 12v in bobs or anywhere else

can anyone send me the link for the item? As well as the plunger and linkage? I d really appreciate the help. Thanks

 

this is the only thing that I found

https://bobsautomobilia.com/starters-and-parts/1942-50-rebuilt-starter-soleniod-.-su-rexb/

not sure its for 12v ? Correct or not? 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Selim (see edit history)

[Selim]

https://bobsautomobilia.com/starters-and-parts/1942-50-rebuilt-starter-soleniod-.-su-rexb/

 

this is the only solenoid available , is it 12v? Is it good for my car, or should I get another one?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

That is six [6] volt. Will work.  Better, since yours is 12v, is the Hi-torque on the same page. I have one of those, bought from Tom Telesco, on my 1950. I am very happy .

 

  Ben

[Selim]

6 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

That is six [6] volt. Will work.  Better, since yours is 12v, is the Hi-torque on the same page. I have one of those, bought from Tom Telesco, on my 1950. I am very happy .

 

  Ben

http://www.oldbuickparts.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Solenoid&search_in_description=1&x=15&y=8

 

which solenoid exactly 12v that would fit my car 1949 super converted to 12v?

[Selim]

7 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

That is six [6] volt. Will work.  Better, since yours is 12v, is the Hi-torque on the same page. I have one of those, bought from Tom Telesco, on my 1950. I am very happy .

 

  Ben

Ben

thanks, but I Checked on same page but couldn’t find it!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

12 hours ago, Selim said:

https://bobsautomobilia.com/starters-and-parts/1942-50-rebuilt-starter-soleniod-.-su-rexb/

 

this is the only solenoid available , is it 12v? Is it good for my car, or should I get another one?

 

 Click on this link.  Just beneath the heading,"Bobs Automobilia"  is a line that contains "starters and parts", click that and the starter is on the top right.

 

  Ben

[gdmn852]

It would be a 6 volt. I think Buick changed to 12 volt in 1953, on my 49 that was converted to 12 volt,I had to use a 1953 voltage regulator with a 12 volt generator.

[gdmn852]

1954 Buick changed to 12 volt,as Ben mentioned ,the 12 volt high torque starter may be a good alternative. I also have one on my 49 that was converted, I did have an issue with it,the relay stuck closed and continued cranking. I have earlier post on it. If that happens,Just change the relay with a new one.Instruction come with the new one showing how to mount and wire it in .

[gdmn852]

1954 Buick changed to 12 volt,as Ben mentioned ,the 12 volt high torque starter may be a good alternative. I also have one on my 49 that was converted, I did have an issue with it,the relay stuck closed and continued cranking. I have earlier post on it.

[gdmn852]

Also there is a link to it earlier in this post 12 volt high torque starter part number ST 12s

[gdmn852]

I think the 7th post has the link 

[Selim]

I need to buy a solenoid for a 1953-1956 Buick along with the plunger and linkage. This will be a 12v setup and I should b ok.

problem is I can’t find them on Bob’s and CARS

i need the links please for the solenoid, plunger and linkage. As u keep telling me to buy them but it’s driving me crazy not finding them on the sites. 
please, I need links of items where I could just buy them.

send me links of the solenoid please

thanks

[certjeff1]

Delco-Remy part numbers. Solenoid #'s 1118187 or 1119965. Plunger with linkage #1912055. I can dig thru my stuff if you cant find them elsewhere. You can PM me.

[Frank DuVal]

OK, Buick history lesson:

 

All straight eight Buicks came with 6 volt electrics. Even the 1953 Special.

 

All V-8 Buicks have 12 volt systems, even the 1953 Super, Roadmaster and Skylark.

 

Just in case there is a pre 1930 or foreign production exception to this, I shall say the above is from 1930 to present for United States vehicles. 😉

 

[RivNut]

Buick switched to 12 volts in 1953 for their V8 cars (Roadmaster and Super) but stayed with 6 volts for the Special which maintained the straight 8.  Everything  was 12 volts in 1954.

[gdmn852]

Thanks riv nut, I thought the last straight eights were still 6 volt,1953 Specials.

[Selim]

Here is the order from Bobs

hope I got correct items for my car

i intend to proceed with order in a couple of days after adding more items. If u guys have any remark please do. Thanks

[gdmn852]

Are your shock absorbers in good condition?Now would be the time to change them if you are putting in new springs, also the upper outer pins on front may need replaced.The ignition switch is a two part assembly, the outer part the key goes in and the actual electrical switch that is mounted into the dash, that is wired into the harness. I had my shocks rebuilt by Apple ,but the are others that can rebuild them.

[Selim]

7 hours ago, gdmn852 said:

Are your shock absorbers in good condition?Now would be the time to change them if you are putting in new springs, also the upper outer pins on front may need replaced.The ignition switch is a two part assembly, the outer part the key goes in and the actual electrical switch that is mounted into the dash, that is wired into the harness. I had my shocks rebuilt by Apple ,but the are others that can rebuild them.

Shock absorbers r not in good condition. I rebuilt rear ones sometime ago here but not sure about quality. R they available new? How much? Is there a rebuilt kit to do them here ? I guess it d b cheaper.

thanks 

[BuickBob49]

Kanter Auto Products has them. We installed some on my 1949 Super several years ago, front and rear. Those and radial tires really improved the ride and handling. Not cheap, but well worth the expense!

Edited November 19, 2019 by BuickBob49 (see edit history)