1922 Starter-Gen & water pump shaft question

[Mark Kikta 673]

I am finally about ready to install my Starter-Gen and the water pump shaft and coupling.  I just have one question so far.  The coupling disc shown below looks essentially the same on both side except for the "S" stamped in one of the grooves.  I didn't notice this when I took it apart so I am assuming that would be the side to face the Starter.  Anyone know if it matters or if that correct?

[DonMicheletti 677]

It doesnt matter which way it goes in as long as the slot width is identical...which I expect it is

[Mark Kikta 673]

Thanks Don

[dibarlaw 1,897]

Mark:

 I may have mentioned it to you but since you have a new water pump shaft it is important. When I made my new shaft

 I tried to locate the taper pin holes exactly as they were on my original shaft. Set up V blocks and indicator on my drill press to get that hole perfectly on the center of the shaft. When I assembled all the coupler ended being tight up to the Oldham. The starter would not motor. When installed the Oldham coupler needs to have about .050 clearance. I believe that when these engines were being built the water pump and coupler were drilled in assembly. Install the Oldham coupler, move the shaft coupler against it and back off .050. Then drill. I have 3 water pump shafts and one can tell these were drilled at random. Checking with the taper pins. Different hole locations from the end of the shaft. Several shafts had the holes drilled at a decided angle. On one shaft the hole was off center by 1/8"!

    

I ended up surface grinding .020 the Oldham plate.

All works fine now!

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta 673]

Larry,

 

Thanks for that information.  I copied this from one of your posts a while ago and saved it so I don't make the same mistake.  I have some sheet metal around 40-50 thousands thick that I plan to make a shim from and tape it in place when I start this process.  That will keep me from getting it too tight hopefully.  Drilling the pin hole square in the shaft is my next concern.  Also I think I want to use a bolt of some sort instead of a tapered pin, so I can remove and replace easily as I try to get this timing and all figured out.  I have a drill press and that will help the process some. 

[Larry Schramm 3,129]

Mark,

 

If you remember, we did not drill the hole for that coupling on purpose when the new shaft was made.  The reason is so you could install the water pump, etc and then locate the coupling with the proper clearance and drill the hole for the coupling so if fits properly.   At the very least, install everything and mark where to drill the hole.

 

Not drilling until installation is something we learned from making other shafts.  We try to be reasonably quick learners.

 

 

[Mark Kikta 673]

Larry,

 

Roger that, I remember our discussion on that subject.  I am test fitting the shaft today hopefully so I can shim the coupling and as you say at least mark the shaft fit all assembled and then remove so I can drill it properly.

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

When I had my S/G rebuilt a few years back I worked on removing that drive pin for a whole day.  It would not budge.  Finally had to drill it out.  In one of my greatest garage feats of all time, I drilled dead center down the length of that pin with a slightly undersized drill and a electric hand drill while bent over 90 degrees at the waist. Tapped it out with a drift.  Zero chance of ever doing that again. 
 

McMaster Carr makes precision diameter shoulder bolts in lots of diameters and lengths. I installed this and a locking nut so it could be serviced easier in the future. 
 

For those just servicing the S/G I think you can leave this pin and collar in place and move the S/G slightly rearward and out.  All 65#s of it. 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

I’m not a fan of stainless for the W/P shaft as many of you know. 
 

Tough (terrible) to machine and drilling this hole will not be fun due to hardness and SS’s tendencies to spall.  Please let us know how it goes and the drill used. 
 

Remember, the original cold rolled shaft lasted 100 years and was still working and with poor anti corrosion coolants (if any) for the first 50. 

[DonMicheletti 677]

Dont under estimate that tapered pin. That was used to prevent vibration causing relative movement between the shaft and coupling. That can happen using a bolt with and a clearance hole. If there is movement, it could bugger up your shaft and coupling.

Also a bit of grease on the coupling is a good idea. No matter what, there will be a slight mis alignment between the coupling and S/G - that is why the oldham coupling.

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

4 hours ago, DonMicheletti said:

Dont under estimate that tapered pin. That was used to prevent vibration causing relative movement between the shaft and coupling. That can happen using a bolt with and a clearance hole. If there is movement, it could bugger up your shaft and coupling.

Also a bit of grease on the coupling is a good idea. No matter what, there will be a slight mis alignment between the coupling and S/G - that is why the oldham coupling.

Agree

 

That’s why I went with the tight tolerance ground shoulder bolt. Fit tight. Had to tap it in.  
 

Thought of using a roll pin but this is secure and easier to remove. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25 1,629]

I used a 1/4" roll pin on the gear side (The driven end).  I stayed with the taper pin on the starter generator end only for the look of it.  The roll pin is nice because you still have to tap it in or out so you know it is a tight fit, but you can do it from either side. 

Hugh 

[Mark Kikta 673]

So today I test fit my new water pump shaft and it fit perfectly.  The gear end fit exactly like the old one.  So I cut a piece of sheetmetal to get a good 4O-50 thousands clearance at the oldham coupling.  After I cut the center out of the sheetmetal, I taped the two pieces onto the coupling to keep them in place.

[Mark Kikta 673]

So after fitting the shaft and the coupling with shims in place, I marked and center punched the spot to be drilled.  So guess I need to decide what I need to drill for.  I’m leaning towards the shoulder bolt or roll pin.

[Terry Wiegand 1,866]

Mark,

Things are really looking good with your engine.  With regard to pinning the coupling to the shaft - are you going to remove everything and set the shaft in a set of V-blocks on the Bridgeport table to drill the hole?  I believe the proper taper pin size is a #4.  These can be had in different lengths.  As Don said, the idea behind the Oldham coupling is to allow for a bit of mis-alignment and still function properly.  I have literally gone to sleep many a night going through this procedure in setting things back together with my engine.  Take your time and be very careful and you will end up with a great result.  Personally, I would stay away from a roll pin and just use the tapered pin.  The roll pin approach involves too much pounding to set it in place, plus, if you ever have to remove it for any reason it will be a mess to get out.  Buick used those tapered pins for a very good reason.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

Drilling that shaft freehand and having the shaft hole come out on the other side where the hole in the collar is, is the trick. 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

Also your sheet metal S/G shaft end cover is on backwards compared to my 1923 in the pic above. 
 

Always thought this was a good place to capture a large felt seal like the inner wheel bearing type. 

[Mark Kikta 673]

Thanks Brian.  I just put it on there like I took it off.  I wasn't sure how it fit either so I reference the pictures I took during dis-assembly.  Looking closer at it, I thought the groove with a hole at the bottom must have been made to catch the oil off the slinger on the coupling so I thought I had it right?

 

Also I ordered both a shoulder bolt and split pin so I can see what fits better for me.  I'm actually hoping I can make the shoulder  bolt work for ease of removal/replacement.

 

Drilling that hole freehand seems like a losing proposition for me?  I am going to try and drill this on my drill press in a drill press vise with the sharpest new drill bits I have.

[Mark Shaw 1,676]

I am not a tapered pin fan either.  I am currently fighting the tapered pin that backed out of the S/G coupler and jammed against the S/G body in my 15 Speedster.   The tapered pin & hole have evidently worn over the last 100 years and caused it to back out while running.  So far, I have been unable to reverse rotate the motor to release it.  My next plan is to  just cut off the jammed part of the pin and maybe make a tapered shoulder bolt or a tapered split pin to solve this problem.  

Edited November 2, 2019 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

Here is a pic of the S/G end plate from my 1923 Manual. 
 

Sticks out. 
 

Put the drain hole at bottom. 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

For those who may not be familiar with what a ground shoulder bolt looks like

 

Available in many diameters and lengths

 

I selected one with the shoulder just past the collar diameter.  Put a couple hardened washers on either end so the nut would not bottom out on the shoulder 

 

Used a self locking nut.  Has yet to move

 

I was lucky to be using old holes already drilled by Buick that lined up.  
 

Used a drill backwards as a plug gauge to determine the diameter of the hole to order the correct bolt shoulder diameter.  

[DonMicheletti 677]

In realioty, as much as these cars are typically used, you could probably get away with a bent nail in that coupling.

I,too had a tapered pin fall out on a trip. I got home using a piece of copper tube stuck through the hole after I got the engine timed. No big deal.

That tapered pin can be a real PITA - but I like them.

[Mark Kikta 673]

I just drilled a pilot hole in my shaft using my drill press vise and it came out perfectly centered on both sides of the coupling.  Now I’ll wait till I get the parts I ordered and do some fitting checks on some scrap metal before drilling the final hole.

 

By the way,  what type of grease did you guys use on the gears that mesh the starter to the flywheel?  Chassis type lube or heavier wheel bearing type?

 

Brian,  so the drain hole for that end cap is on the outside of the case?

[Mark Kikta 673]

Brian,

 

Our distributors are sure different being only one year apart.   You have a grease fitting which I do not.  I only have an oiler up near the cap. 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

You will want to pack that worm gear drive for the distributor with good stuff.  Pick your poison. 

 

The large dist. drive gear on my car was worn to the point that the gear ends were like knife blades due to lack of lube when I bought my car. 
 

In yours you should be able to pull that stamped cover and pack grease occasionally from the end.  I bought a needle nose grease nozzle years ago for similar tasks. 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

And good job on drilling that hole!

 

We are batting 1000!

 

Pucker factor of 10. 

[DonMicheletti 677]

Nice job on that hole!

 

I just used general purpose grease in that starter gear - not lubriplate.

[Hubert_25-25 1,629]

Mark, 

I went with the roll pin because it was a smaller hole than for a bolt, and I could always do a bolt later if I wanted to.  These felt snug enough going in that they did not feel like they would come out easily and yet were not too tight that I would regret installing them.  Also be sure it is a roll pin and not a split pin.  There is a difference.

McMaster Carr calls them slotted spring pins (do not use) and Coiled spring pins. 

I do not know if these types of pins were available in the 20's.  Today these are a precision part from a heat treating perspective.   

Hugh

Edited November 2, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta 673]

Thanks Brian and Don.  I was sweating the load quite a bit getting ready to start drilling.  I didn’t want to screw up this nice water pump shaft Larry S made for me.  I think I’m off on the right track at least.  I will just brush some general purpose grease on these gears before I button it up.

 

Hugh,

Thanks for the info.  I ordered the wrong pin I guess.  So if I can’t make this screw work, I’ll order the right pin.   

[Mark Kikta 673]

Brian,

 

I tried to locate this line drawing for the 1922 and this is all I have.  It's not as clear but it looks different than the one you have for your 23.

This looks to me like it shows the flat side of the end plate outwards on both views.   Not trying to beat this to death but wondered what you think?

 

 

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

Agree with you 

 

Just check clearance to the slinger lip on the collar that rotates. 

[Terry Wiegand 1,866]

Mark and all,

I made a new S/G shaft coupling and had it heat treated.  My thinking was I didn't want to end up with a new shaft and have an old coupling with the old holes and try to line the drilled shaft up with the existing holes.  I drilled and tapped a set screw hole to hold the coupling while the taper pin hole is being drilled.  This will all be done with the shaft in V-blocks and secured in place.  The extra set screw will not hurt a thing.  As I have mentioned before, I have literally gone to sleep thinking about how this project is going to go together.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

On 11/2/2019 at 5:24 PM, Mark Kikta said:

Thanks Brian and Don.  I was sweating the load quite a bit getting ready to start drilling.  I didn’t want to screw up this nice water pump shaft Larry S made for me.  I think I’m off on the right track at least.  I will just brush some general purpose grease on these gears before I button it up.

 

Hugh,

Thanks for the info.  I ordered the wrong pin I guess.  So if I can’t make this screw work, I’ll order the right pin.   

Mark

 

There is an overriding clutch in here too that needs to be cleaned and packed. 

[Mark Kikta 673]

Terry,

 

I understand that.  I had a sleepless night worrying about drilling that hole properly as well.

 

Brian,

 

I need to take a much closer look then because all I saw in there was a set of gears that slid on a shaft to engage the flywheel and starter gears.  Thanks

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

Don’t feel bad

 

i didn’t know there was a second clutch in there for years

 

It’s internal to the big gear much like the one on the distributor drive gear. 

[Mark Kikta 673]

Brian,

 

so I got up early to investigate this before going off to work.  You are correct,  it looks like there is something behind that gear.  Now I get to remove that lite-weight starter again!

 

What is that clutch for?

[Brian_Heil 1,529]

When the engine fires and the pinion is still momentarily engaged, this clutch lets the pinion gear over speed and spin freely in only that direction. 
 

Same thing on the other end. It isolates the torque of the starter yet allows it to be driven to make electricity. 

[Terry Wiegand 1,866]

So, from the moment that the lever on the switch in the dash panel is turned on and a person removes their foot from the starter pedal after the engine catches and begins running, there is a whole lot of things going on under the hood all at the same time within a few seconds.  Amazing.  Absolutely Amazing what was going on over 100 years ago.  Brian, thanks for your explanation about this particular feature in the Delco Starting System.  I must admit that I was not totally aware of just how this part of the starting process worked.  Never too old to learn.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[DonMicheletti 677]

Here is a photo of the guts of that clutch (often called a "sprag"). First, before cleaning, second, disassembled.

[Mark Kikta 673]

Brian abd Don,

 

Thank you both for that information. I will get that apart and cleaned so that it works.  Light oil or grease to lube it?  looks like it could get gummed up easily.