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How bad is the collector market getting


Joe in Canada
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1 hour ago, jeff_a said:

Is it not true that the reduction of their prices is a good thing, allowing for easier acquisition? 

 

Buying an old car, in some cases  can be affordable. Even in the future,  if prices continue to drop. The old cars become easier to acquire, sure. Initial purchase prices may go down. However the cost of ownership still goes up. 

 

From my perspective, the repairs, maintenance, upkeep, parts prices, freight, costs etc are going to have a huge effect on the vintage car market. Those costs are already today, taking a toll. I cannot imagine paying hourly labor rates for a mechanic to keep my old cars going. Around here if you can’t do it yourself, you’re in for a very thin wallet, and lots of lessons in the art of patience. I’m not sure there is a working, licensed mechanic within 500 miles,  that knows how to troubleshoot and repair the fluid torque drive semi-auto tranny system in my old Chrysler. Why would they? There’s too few of these cars on the road with owners willing to shell out big bucks for labor costs. 

 

Cars for me are a great hobby. I am not looking to make a profit. I know people who spend $4k/yr on golf. What do they get when they cash out? Zipp-ola!

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4 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

I totally get the reason for posting this crazy story, but way too much energy is spent on this general topic here and elsewhere. I will indulge in one last somewhat serious observation.

 

Fact is, change is the one constant.  Whoever said rock and roll is here to stay is also learning otherwise, this is the consensus of many popular artists a lot of us probably enjoy.  Well, I guess any other rock music fans may want to start listening to pop-hip hop, or whatever the new genre is, if the logic of "others aren't into what I like" is really getting to you that bad.

 

I actually think some people in the future will have an interest in old cars, and rock music for that matter.  But here and now matters more, and I would't pick any other interest.  Plus, I anxiously await the next thing Bernie is going to hit us with everytime I log on... 😁

 

 

A lot of the new rap music that my 19 year old son listens to is so non musical that I can't listen to it. I have never played in a band however I have been playing the guitar on and off for 45 years. Not great but not bad ,mostly harder rock although I listen to a very wide range of music. A good friend has been a part time working musician for 40 years. Several touring bands in his youth until

his day job { engineering technologist } crowded out touring. He has two daughters just a bit younger than my son. He says the exact same thing. Essentially as a musician the rap music is so un musical that it is actually upsetting to listen to. He had to declare his car a rap free zone so he could concentrate on driving. It's just that bad ! Frightening that youth are embracing it whole hog, and we are not talking 

rock and roll in the early 1950's. It's the whole inner city , ghetto, anger and malice toward the world.

 I also agree that a 1970 Charger would have to have some very serious problems indeed not to sell in the $5000.00 range. Stolen ? Regardless of engine / options they are a very desirable starting point . And kids like them thanks to the Fast and Furious movies. Way more popular with young people than either " Dukes" or Gone in 60 Seconds.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

 

I have six collectible cars, I was in automotive engineering for 34 plus years, a mechanic before that. I love cars. When I was a kid I wanted to work on and run steam locos like my grandfather did. Virtually all of that went away in the L.A. area and most of the country in 1956 when electric and diesel electric loco's appeared. My dream vanished, however my grandfather had warned me it was coming. Being in the industry as it unfolds gives one a preview of things to come. Now my love of cars as we all know them is also coming to a close. Do yo have grandchildren? listen to them. I've got 4 and 4 great grandkids and the oldest is 13. Listen to them.   

Agitator is a rather harsh word to give to someone expressing a opinion. 

Sorry to hear that your grandchildren do not share your views but you can’t take their view and generalize it across everyone.  I am 48 and never was into old cars.   About three years ago that bit flipped when on an impulse by I purchased a Ford Model A roadster.  My 20 year old daughter at the time dragged my wife and I to a car place so she could look at a VW bus.  While looking at the bus we saw that Model A and fell in love.  My daughter bought the bus and we bought the Model A.    I didn’t t know one thing about it, though I learned and fell in love.  I now own six collector cars with five of them being pre 1931.  My 19 year old son has the bug even more than me.  He owns a car from 1923 and his friends even love it.  My 23 year old daughter drives that 1978 VW bus as her daily driver and she knows others her age who are similar.   Do my son son and daughter belong to any clubs? Would they participate on a forum like this?  No so they don’t show up on the radar and the perception is young people don’t like old cars.  My son is also an instructor at a model t driving school at a large museum and the amount of younger people signing up for that and loving it is quite surprising.  I know many other guys in their 40s that own pre war cars and enjoy the heck out of them but do not belong to any of the typical clubs either.  Why is that?  The biggest reason is that we all work and the local clubs like the Model A club loves to have their bi weekly breakfasts and lunches on weekdays.  Things change and times are different but I know a lot of younger interest in old cars, you just have to know where to find it.  My case is opposite of yours as my younger generation children got me into the hobby because of their interest.

Edited by kfle (see edit history)
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Thanks kfle, I think you’re exactly right about why the doom-and-gloomers are wrong.  Plenty of young folks have time for cars, but not for older social traditions.  And if I can add one more point...

 

Electric cars will not kill the hobby, they’ll only change parts of it.  Just because some folks can’t understand EVs’ appeal doesn’t prove anything about those that do understand it.  Some of us take some pride in helping minimize our waste and take responsibility for cleaning up our own messes.  And while some of the coming changes may be scary, the re-emergence of electric transportation doesn’t by default require a matching decline in oil-burning transportation.

 

For example, I would never be here if I hadn’t spent 10 years working on electric trolley cars (the first wave of electric transport dominating over gas).  I went from that to saving money to buy and resto-mod a vintage electric bus.  Then I saw an antique gas-powered bus whose history meant too much for me to pass up, and spent my trackless trolley fund to buy it.  I couldn’t be happier with that choice, and now here I am, learning all I can about pistons, carburetors, and so on.  Just because I may look like a scary Millennial oil-hater to some hasn’t stopped me from joining, and enjoying, your hobby.

 

Just please, do my generation a favor and lose some of the generalizations about us?  Thanks!

 

 

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We have just come full circle from Gregorian Chants to Rap. Most I can ignore but Rapabilly is just too bad for words. Now have over 500 albums on my phone and the Bluetooth hands-free in all of my cars also does A2DP.

 

As to electric cars am still wondering how Duke power which already has issues on hot afternoons is going to handle a gaggle of electric cars. Bring back nuclear power ?

 

Can say my trivia team always does better with a couple of Millenians on it

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This is why I do a little market research and set a firm price before I ever list a car for sale. I tell them right off the bat "X" amount is what I'm willing to take and that doesn't change even if you're hot girlfriend shows up and does "X" to me. I also do a good bit of "pre-screening" of the prospective buyer and ask them certain targeted questions before they even show up. I've had too many threatening 3 A.M. phone calls in the past to not take careful measures today. I also strongly encourage my friends/family/coworkers to not buy a project car unless they're willing to make it a lifetime commitment. This guy probably spent thousands on his 70 Charger just to make it run & stop, and it's still a project car. Save your money and buy a finished car or a well-maintained original. Projects are for guys that have the knowledge, skills, time, tools, and garage to finish it. Or for people that are willing to pay a reputable shop to finish the job. You will rarely ever recoup the restoration cost of a basket case project car unless it's some kind of highly desirable, rare collectible. 

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That guy should have called Mike and Frank over.  Mike would have said, "Is this something you would consider selling?"  

Seller, "Well, this is a very special car for me."

Mike, "What's your crazy, I don't want to sell this car price?"

Seller, "it would have to be around 30K!".

Mike and Frank, "Would you take 25K for it?"

Seller, "Well let me think about it.  Meet me in the middle at $27,500, and I'll do it".

Mike, "how about 27K?"

Seller, "Ok, sold!"

Problem solved.

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21 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

This has nothing to do with "the market." It's a guy being frustrated with the crap that routinely goes on in the hobby, most of which is related to the participants thinking it should also be profitable for everyone involved. I totally get it.

 

I don't see ''crap'' going on in the market... It is a really interesting hobby BUT it is a complicated one as you need A LOT of space, money and knowledge. All things that people have less and less of... There is also other factors that come into play for buyers; will I have parts support, will I get help from other club members, will the club even survive? Those questions were not asked 10-20 years ago because the answer was obviously ''yes''... but today, who knows if the Nash club will be around in 10-15 years. Am I willing to buy a 1929 Nash for 20 000$ knowing I might possibly be on my own in 10 years with 'nearly impossible to find parts' for repair? You don't ask yourself those questions if you are an 80yo owner... but if you are 30 or 40 and looking to buy and have a minimum of common sense, you will.

The hobby is not going away, but it will shrink... how much it shrinks (I think) depends partially on the current owners/club members behavior. And to witness such idiotic and infentile reaction because he did not get what he wanted for his car, does not look very good...for people peeking into the antique car world, people who might develop an interest for the hobby...

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15 hours ago, Car-Nicopia said:

the only thing that has changed in the last twenty years of their preaching is there are more people walking past them on the way to the speedway.

 

I only went to the 500 one year but I was in Jonathan Byrd's bus with a police escort and dropped off at the gate.

 

Seems like the world has changed since the police and I have been on better terms.

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17 hours ago, Licespray said:

 

 

No offence, but you were too quick to be defensive to take the time to understand what he meant.

 

He’s not talking 5, 10 years etc. If you haven’t noticed there’s a push to eventually phase out petrol/ICB. It’ll be a bit hard to enjoy driving something if it has no fuel to run on, hard to sell something that can’t be used. Try and sell a gun in a cartridge you can’t buy, you’ll get way less people interested than an off the shelf availability one. Sure there’ll be some, but less than there was.

 

I believe this is the point.

Ive found in my short time on this earth that if something offends me or gets me defensive it’s usuallt best to reread it, take a bit of time, read it again, and then reply. Yes it’s difficult to think outside of your own head, but it’s doable. Not having a go at anyone either, just passing on something I’ve realised over the years. I don’t think I’ve been angry in years and it’s fantastic :)

 

 

I actually said 40 years from now about 90 % of our cars will have gone on the scrap heap. I still have contacts in the industry and I can tell you electric cars and the technology for them is coming very fast. If you talk to guys in product planning and even marketing strategies IC engines are a thing of the past. It really isn't what we (  people like myself that love the wonders of a piston engine ) want them to build, it's more like they are going to build it with governments around the world helping. Then, listen to your kids and grandkids. I'm not talking to the rare kids that have exposure to our hobby, I'm talking about the majority of kids today who have been taught IC engine is a menace to society.

 I told you I have 6 collector cars. Two of them I've had since the 12th grade, and two I special ordered from new day one. I don't like this anymore than I liked the demise of steam locos but reality is reality. I'll hold onto what I've got as long as I can. 

Also, long before that 40 years happens I'll be gone myself.

 

  Get yourself a subscription to Automotive News and see how fast things are coming. This publication isn't about cars per say, It's more about the industry and the cars they produce or will produce in the future. It reports on the industry and where it's headed and who's doing what. When I was in the industry it was required reading.

I'm just the messenger folks and don't condemn me for speaking my mind. It's still a free country for the time being. 

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14 hours ago, kfle said:

Sorry to hear that your grandchildren do not share your views but you can’t take their view and generalize it across everyone.  I am 48 and never was into old cars.   About three years ago that bit flipped when on an impulse by I purchased a Ford Model A roadster.  My 20 year old daughter at the time dragged my wife and I to a car place so she could look at a VW bus.  While looking at the bus we saw that Model A and fell in love.  My daughter bought the bus and we bought the Model A.    I didn’t t know one thing about it, though I learned and fell in love.  I now own six collector cars with five of them being pre 1931.  My 19 year old son has the bug even more than me.  He owns a car from 1923 and his friends even love it.  My 23 year old daughter drives that 1978 VW bus as her daily driver and she knows others her age who are similar.   Do my son son and daughter belong to any clubs? Would they participate on a forum like this?  No so they don’t show up on the radar and the perception is young people don’t like old cars.  My son is also an instructor at a model t driving school at a large museum and the amount of younger people signing up for that and loving it is quite surprising.  I know many other guys in their 40s that own pre war cars and enjoy the heck out of them but do not belong to any of the typical clubs either.  Why is that?  The biggest reason is that we all work and the local clubs like the Model A club loves to have their bi weekly breakfasts and lunches on weekdays.  Things change and times are different but I know a lot of younger interest in old cars, you just have to know where to find it.  My case is opposite of yours as my younger generation children got me into the hobby because of their interest.

 

 The grandchildren except for two are in their early 30's,  It's the great grandchildren especially the 13 and 10 year old that I'm listening in on. I  listen to what they are telling me of their world, what is taught in school, what the teachers are saying, what other kids are saying. They act more of the weathervane so it's not that they don't share my views.

 My case is not opposite, I would love this hobby to continue. I wouldn't want my 6 collector cars to be crushed anymore that you would yours. Don't shoot the messenger. 

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13 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

 

 The grandchildren except for two are in their early 30's,  It's the great grandchildren especially the 13 and 10 year old that I'm listening in on. I  listen to what they are telling me of their world, what is taught in school, what the teachers are saying, what other kids are saying. They act more of the weathervane so it's not that they don't share my views.

 My case is not opposite, I would love this hobby to continue. I wouldn't want my 6 collector cars to be crushed anymore that you would yours. Don't shoot the messenger. 

Who is shooting the messenger?  I just don’t understand how you can take the views of your great grand children and apply that everywhere?  My youngest son is 16 so about in the same ballpark as your great grand children and I hear differently.   I live in the Detroit area so am very intune to the automotive trends and market.  I have also been in the high tech industry that haS ushered in this change for over twenty five years.  Myself and others that I know like me look at the old cars as a get away from the fast paced high tech life that we live almost 24 hours a day.   It is very therapeutic to drive and work on a car from the 1910s.  The hobby to me is about having fun and enjoying the cars and less about having the cars judged, hanging out in clubs, and hyper focusing on value.  
 

I would posit that in the future the old cars will have owners, drivers, and enthusiasts, however the old clubs and current old car social structure will fade away.  

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5 minutes ago, kfle said:

Who is shooting the messenger?  I just don’t understand how you can take the views of your great grand children and apply that everywhere?  My youngest son is 16 so about in the same ballpark as your great grand children and I hear differently.   I live in the Detroit area so am very intune to the automotive trends and market.  I have also been in the high tech industry that haS ushered in this change for over twenty five years.  Myself and others that I know like me look at the old cars as a get away from the fast paced high tech life that we live almost 24 hours a day.   It is very therapeutic to drive and work on a car from the 1910s.  The hobby to me is about having fun and enjoying the cars and less about having the cars judged, hanging out in clubs, and hyper focusing on value.  
 

I would posit that in the future the old cars will have owners, drivers, and enthusiasts, however the old clubs and current old car social structure will fade away.  

I'm not applying at all. I'm just listening to what the young kids think and what they're being taught. I look at what is going down in my industry and what is being planned. I look at attitudes in government and how some states and other countries.

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Pfeil, your comments more closely resemble news shows who profit off of making older Americans afraid of everything.  The real world is a lot less uniform, and doesn’t run on one big conspiracy.

 

And the world is full of both younger folks who avoid using oil for solid scientific reasons, and young enthusiasts preserving cars, trucks, trains, planes, and so on.  Some of us fit both descriptions!

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I've wondered with the EV's Hurricane knocks out power to hundreds of thousands,  Ice storm, Wild fire.  No way to charge anything to get to safety if it wasn't fully charged first.  Heaven forbid if all the EMS and firetrucks went EV.  You would then need huge diesel generators to run 24/7 to charge them. How much power does a firetruck need to run it's pumps?  In CA they cut power so you are really in a bind if you have a dead EV that needs a charge. Electric planes and Copters to carry the massive dumps of fire fighting agent and water.  Go after  Mother Nature.  Her carbon foot print after smoking several acres of land and cars/ houses, etc.  is more than we save in all our efforts.  You would probably be better to figure out how to prevent all these from happening if you want to really lower the US Carbon footprint.  Management would be alot easier and create alot  less carbon than trying to fight the beast once it's left unchecked. 

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2 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I've wondered with the EV's Hurricane knocks out power to hundreds of thousands,  Ice storm, Wild fire.  No way to charge anything to get to safety if it wasn't fully charged first.

 

The centralized power distribution of electricity (at least the way it is now) is both an advantage and a disadvantage.  With Diesel/Gas you have quantities of energy stored in a distributed fashion which is an advantage in an unstable environment.

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3 hours ago, Brill_C-37M_Bus said:

Pfeil, your comments more closely resemble news shows who profit off of making older Americans afraid of everything.  The real world is a lot less uniform, and doesn’t run on one big conspiracy.

 

And the world is full of both younger folks who avoid using oil for solid scientific reasons, and young enthusiasts preserving cars, trucks, trains, planes, and so on.  Some of us fit both descriptions!

What news shows are you referring to, obviously I don't watch them.

Edited by Pfeil (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

 

 

I actually said 40 years from now about 90 % of our cars will have gone on the scrap heap. I still have contacts in the industry and I can tell you electric cars and the technology for them is coming very fast. If you talk to guys in product planning and even marketing strategies IC engines are a thing of the past. It really isn't what we (  people like myself that love the wonders of a piston engine ) want them to build, it's more like they are going to build it with governments around the world helping. Then, listen to your kids and grandkids. I'm not talking to the rare kids that have exposure to our hobby, I'm talking about the majority of kids today who have been taught IC engine is a menace to society.

 I told you I have 6 collector cars. Two of them I've had since the 12th grade, and two I special ordered from new day one. I don't like this anymore than I liked the demise of steam locos but reality is reality. I'll hold onto what I've got as long as I can. 

Also, long before that 40 years happens I'll be gone myself.

 

  Get yourself a subscription to Automotive News and see how fast things are coming. This publication isn't about cars per say, It's more about the industry and the cars they produce or will produce in the future. It reports on the industry and where it's headed and who's doing what. When I was in the industry it was required reading.

I'm just the messenger folks and don't condemn me for speaking my mind. It's still a free country for the time being. 

And this is why the custom end of cars is not slowing down. People will take the modern electric motors, and fit them into the older cars. There are all ready shops doing it. And any new car that is purchased, a owner will want to put their personal touch on it. Just like people did in the 40's,50's and 60's. As long as there is an individual mode of transportation. People will put a custom/personal touch on it. You can see it even on the restoration side. Color choice, black wall/white wall tires. Old car are not going anywhere. The salvage/wrecking yards I drive by every day, are not full of classic/vintage cars. They are full of cars/trucks from 1990-2019. I will keep working on my old cars. A Hudson would look good with an electric motor.

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1 minute ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

And this is why the custom end of cars is not slowing down. People will take the modern electric motors, and fit them into the older cars. There are all ready shops doing it. And any new car that is purchased, a owner will want to put their personal touch on it. Just like people did in the 40's,50's and 60's. As long as there is an individual mode of transportation. People will put a custom/personal touch on it. You can see it even on the restoration side. Color choice, black wall/white wall tires. Old car are not going anywhere. The salvage/wrecking yards I drive by every day, are not full of classic/vintage cars. They are full of cars/trucks from 1990-2019. I will keep working on my old cars. A Hudson would look good with an electric motor.

Would look funny to see a Hornet plugged in next to a Tesla.  People would notice the Hudson but probably wouldn't give a second glance to the Tesla. 

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1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

And this is why the custom end of cars is not slowing down. People will take the modern electric motors, and fit them into the older cars. There are all ready shops doing it. And any new car that is purchased, a owner will want to put their personal touch on it. Just like people did in the 40's,50's and 60's. As long as there is an individual mode of transportation. People will put a custom/personal touch on it. You can see it even on the restoration side. Color choice, black wall/white wall tires. Old car are not going anywhere. The salvage/wrecking yards I drive by every day, are not full of classic/vintage cars. They are full of cars/trucks from 1990-2019. I will keep working on my old cars. A Hudson would look good with an electric motor.

 

AAAC would never allow that. STOCK IS STOCK!

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So on the news last night I see an investigation about the Teslas batteries catching on fire indiscriminately.

WHILE PARKED !!!

I am afraid I will have to stick will the dinosaurs for only as long as I have left.

Around my neighbor hood there is some interest in golf cars. Not the community thing but the necessity thing. I quiet country road with most having some acreage and everybody is old.

I've been snapping up a few gas carts and fixing them up and selling around the hood.

No electrics golf carts for me. They are indeed cheap to buy, but they all need a couple of thousand dollars worth of batteries. (its already happening)

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2 minutes ago, Robert G. Smits said:

None of my 35-45 y/o kids have any interest in antique cars yet my 11 y/o triplet grandsons are always in my garage sitting in antique cars trying to decide which one they want grandpa to give them at 16 and when will they get to drive one,

 

Love those grand kids, and they are returnable.

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On 11/1/2019 at 1:43 PM, alsancle said:

 

The centralized power distribution of electricity (at least the way it is now) is both an advantage and a disadvantage.  With Diesel/Gas you have quantities of energy stored in a distributed fashion which is an advantage in an unstable environment.

I see a lot of homes here(and we are not a high rent district by any means) installing the Tesla(?) solar panels. Maybe the future is decentralization?

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