CARBURETION

[trini]

This question is for my idol Jon The Carb King. I have a Dodge Brothers Senior 6 and I am using a Carter B B 1, which I was told came off a 32 Chevrolet truck. The vacuum tank is  mounted at least 16 inches above the carburetor. Every time I start the engine after sitting for a few days there is a puddle of gas on the floor. I am using the new type of needle assembly, that stubby type. THE BIG QUESTION IS THE GRAVITY FLOW STRONG ENOUGH TO COMPLETELY SHUT OFF THE GAS  AT THE NEEDLE VALVE  ? The air idle screw has no effect and I have to idle the engine using the adjuster at the bowl.

[carbking]

WOW - thanks for the words of encouragement!

 

Number 1 - Chevrolet did not use a BB-1 in 1932 on a truck! Chevrolet first used the BB-1 on a truck in 1939, but only the C.O.E. versions, not other trucks.

 

In seemingly a different lifetime ( I was about 14) Dad was a sharecropper, and I helped him farm. The tractor had an updraft carburetor. Dad told me "Never turn off the engine using an updraft carburetor with the key. Turn off the gas first, and allow the engine to die, then turn off the key". One day, was in a hurry, turned off the key, and went into the house. Something came up, and got back to the tractor about an hour later to find an empty gas tank and 22 gallons of gas under the tractor! Wise Dad! He said absolutely nothing! He knew I had learned my lesson, and to this day ALWAYS turn off the gas first with an updraft carburetor.

 

If the idle screw has no effect on idling the engine, something is wrong.

 

As to the fuel valve, I have been told that the Daytona valve is a reincarnation of the old Parker Brothers valve. I do not know that this is true, however, if it is true:

 

Fuel valve types

 

We used the Parker Brothers valve on downdraft, updraft, and sidedraft carburetors; many of the updraft and sidedraft with gravity feed without issue.

 

Jon.

 

 

 

[trini]

Thank you Jon, for that reason I installed a shutoff cock just below the vacuum tank. I turn it off every time I turn the engine off. I am beginning to think I do not yet know how to use the choke cable properly. The reason for flooding and the puddle. I enjoy reading your threads.

Cheers

Harry

[stakeside]

Believe those later BB1 carters had a fuel pump feed.

My carter is the later version and has a gravity feed from my vacuum tank. I also have the DAYTONA valve and the fuel inlet at the float is smaller diameter then the non-fuel pump feeds. I will check diameter later.

Checking on options of fuel inlet valve diameters available. What diameter would be best for a gravity flow fuel system? Would it require a larger diameter.

Edited November 1, 2019 by stakeside
E (see edit history)

[Real Steel]

I usually use a 2-ball Grose-Jet type float valve.  They don't leak, even with low head pressure.  I'm using one now on a 1930 Ford pickup (uses a gravity feed fuel tank), and I recently used the same type of valve on a 1924 and 1925 Dodge Brothers cars (uses a vacuum tank feed).

 

I've used these types of valves since the 1970's.  I surely miss Mr Grose and his D&G Valve Manufacturing Company, but there are other manufacturers out there today that make the same type of steel and brass 2- ball float valves.

 

[stakeside]

I found this in my Carter Carb files and it gives information on difference between fuel inlet valves. This carb has two options for the valve. Best gauge to verify is the drill size as No. 31 for gravity feed and No. 38 for fuel pump feed.

I am having trouble finding a fuel inlet valve for the gravity feed. Will the orffice size be critical for performance of engine?

Edited November 2, 2019 by stakeside
E (see edit history)

[carbking]

Using the large orifice with a pressure pump can cause flooding.

 

Using the small orifice with gravity feed can cause fuel starvation.

 

Jon.

[stakeside]

I am trying to locate my problem with my carb. I get good idle with choke open and the engine stubbles when I acelerate. Seems like it is starving for gas.

Anybody have experience in using the Daytona valve for a gravity feed fuel system in the Carter BB1 CARB? The carb rebuild kit representative states “Our Daytona float valve for the Carter updraft BB1 is #25-48.  The orifice is nominally .096 and is fine for the BB1 with gravity feed. The design of the valve. Allows a 12 - 15 %  increase in fuel flow.

[edinmass]

On 11/2/2019 at 1:16 AM, Real Steel said:

I usually use a 2-ball Grose-Jet type float valve.  They don't leak, even with low head pressure.  I'm using one now on a 1930 Ford pickup (uses a gravity feed fuel tank), and I recently used the same type of valve on a 1924 and 1925 Dodge Brothers cars (uses a vacuum tank feed).

 

I've used these types of valves since the 1970's.  I surely miss Mr Grose and his D&G Valve Manufacturing Company, but there are other manufacturers out there today that make the same type of steel and brass 2- ball float valves.

 

Who is making them? Do you have a name/website?

 

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Come on Ed, ever hear of Google?  I saw at least two purveyors of these listed and stopped there.  If you are challenged with your computer today I guess i can do it for you but....    Sorry, I just could not resist yanking your chain a bit. 

[Real Steel]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Who is making them? Do you have a name/website?

 

 

 

- I've sourced them from eBay as NOS.

- I also made 'adapters' to make other Grose-Jet valves fit my application.

- Some specialty suppliers carry new ones, ie: for Ford Model A Zenith carbs. 

 

The original Grose-Jet valves are getting scarce.  Many vintage owners don't even know these valves were available at one time, or know that repops are available for some cars.  Due to this awareness issue, there aren't many being made anymore, and because there aren't many out there, there are few people spreading the word.  Its a vicious circle.

 

If I had the capital, I would create a company to serve the vintage car market...its all about proper advertising and social media (like this forum).  After the word got out, the valves speak for themselves.  I've never worn one out or had it leak.

 

Here is an application chart from the original Grose-Jet company:

http://www.97330.com/GroseJet_id_sheets/D&G_valve_mfg_co_inc.html

 

Good luck finding a valve for your application! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carbking]

On 11/2/2019 at 12:16 AM, Real Steel said:

I usually use a 2-ball Grose-Jet type float valve.  They don't leak, even with low head pressure.  I'm using one now on a 1930 Ford pickup (uses a gravity feed fuel tank), and I recently used the same type of valve on a 1924 and 1925 Dodge Brothers cars (uses a vacuum tank feed).

 

I've used these types of valves since the 1970's.  I surely miss Mr Grose and his D&G Valve Manufacturing Company, but there are other manufacturers out there today that make the same type of steel and brass 2- ball float valves.

 

 

Sorry to hear that, I thought they were gone forever!

 

That means more questions from folks that run out of fuel running down the highway!

 

A few years ago, we bought a carburetor shop that used these, and went out of business (don't know why). There were about 700 new gross-jets that we recycled in scrap brass. Pretty good pile of brass!

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

I love them on early Cadillac carburetors................I run them in all of our 1928-1931 cars.............I don't find any advantage to them on other cars.

[Real Steel]

3 minutes ago, carbking said:

 

Sorry to hear that, I thought they were gone forever!

 

That means more questions from folks that run out of fuel running down the highway!

 

A few years ago, we bought a carburetor shop that used these, and went out of business (don't know why). There were about 700 new gross-jets that we recycled in scrap brass. Pretty good pile of brass!

 

Jon.

 

Its important to pick the correct orifice size when purchasing the valves.  Most folks cant do that correctly, then they end up blaming the parts supplier.  This is a very familiar tune to all the suppliers of parts out there.  Like I said, its an awareness problem.

 

 

[Real Steel]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I love them on early Cadillac carburetors................I run them in all of our 1928-1931 cars.............I don't find any advantage to them on other cars.

Have you run them on other cars? 

Which cars, and were did you get them? 

I think there are folks out there that want to find them too.

[Real Steel]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I love them on early Cadillac carburetors................I run them in all of our 1928-1931 cars.............I don't find any advantage to them on other cars.

 

Yeah, I liked it on my 1940 Cadillac too, and my 1936 Chevy, and my 1953 Ford, and my 1929 Hudson, and my 1925 Dodge Brothers, and my 1930 Ford, and there were some more.  A couple of those I had to make adapters though, because I couldn't find the valves anywhere...too many people just tossing them out I guess(?).

[carbking]

They were really a great selling point for us, as we wouldn't use them. But we had dozens of customers who did, unsuccessfully, that subsequently bought a kit from us, with a real fuel valve, and were very happy.

 

If you like the valve, I am happy for you; but if I am asked, I will strongly recommend AGAINST even thinking about considering their use.

 

Jon

[Graham Man]

How about one of these?  After driving a Model A for a day, and making a dozen or so trips to wash my hands, I would get one.  The only reason I can see for a updraft being more of a problem than a downdraft is because of the proximity (lower or higher) to the fuel tank?

 

https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-fuel-shut-off-valve-modern-style-6-volt.html

 

[edinmass]

Jon, I run them with my own home made brass floats, and a modern style hinge set up. I have them in two 1930 V-16 right now.........and they run perfect. I understand lots of people had problems with them, for multiple reasons. I will gladly buy any for early Cadillac cars. 

[John Byrd]

Trini, I hope you don't mind, but since Jon the carb king is already on here, I have a question too.   Jon, I have a pal over here in Hawaii that is trying to find a carb for his Essex.  I believe it is a 38 model, but not 100 % sure.  He is at the SEMA thingy right now, but would you have info to help him ?  I will tell him about you when he gets back.  Oh, he says his carb is cracked....????  I'll check back in later, thank you sir...you too, trini !

[carbking]

John - the Essex is more likely to be a 1929 or 1930. These used the Marvels with the early pot metal that cracked completely into dust!

 

I have not found a solution for these cars, other than recasting the intake manifold/heat riser for a different carburetor. If anyone has come up with a different solution, I would like to know; then I could pass the solution on to others.

 

Jon.

[carbking]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Jon, I run them with my own home made brass floats, and a modern style hinge set up. I have them in two 1930 V-16 right now.........and they run perfect. I understand lots of people had problems with them, for multiple reasons. I will gladly buy any for early Cadillac cars. 

 

Ed - I have none left, all of the ones I ever got went into scrap brass.

 

We had the following issues reported to us:

 

(1) sticking valves. The two balls would stick! The valves which were placed in the bottom of the fuel bowl would stick closed, allowing zero fuel to enter the bowl. The valves which were placed in the air horn (such as a Pontiac GTO tripower) would stick open, allowing all three carburetors to leak gasoline all over the intake manifold!!!

 

(2) insufficient capacity. Had a number of customers that had placed them in Cadillacs and Packards that were happy with their performance in parades (until they stuck), but were unable to acquire cruise speed, as the valve would not flow sufficient fuel.

 

Both of the above are "hearsay" to me (I would never get in a car that had one), but we sold LOTS of kits to the folks calling us reporting these issues. Many called back after installing a different fuel valve simply delighted that their vehicle now ran as it should.

 

My personal experience with them had to do with the restoration of carburetors. Yes, before our rebuilding kit business ballooned, we restored a lot of carburetors. Some of the customers experiencing issues with the ball/ball valves sent the carb to us for restoration. To save money, the valves for carburetors with unusual original valves (such as Packard Detroit Lubricator) were two piece; the valve itself, and an adapter to make it fit the carburetor. The valve had a hex head, but the ADAPTERS WERE MACHINED FROM ROUND BRASS! Do I need to go on? One would place a socket on the hex, and the valve would unscrew from the adapter, leaving the adapter in the carburetor casting with no easy method of removal. First I tried using a screw with the same threads as the valve and a lock nut to lock it to the adapter. This worked for awhile. Then one came in with insufficient clearance to use this method. Finally put a drop of red Loctite on the thread of the screw, screwed it into the adapter, and let it set up overnight. The following day, I could unscrew the adapter.

 

To be quite honest, Ed, you and the gentleman posting as Real Steel are the ONLY ones I have ever known who actually LIKED these valves.

 

Hopefully, neither of you will ever experience any of the above issues.

 

Jon.

[padgett]

Interesting. Sounds like they worked as long as the gasoline was fresh but any hint of varnish could make them stick. Since collector cars are rarely daily drivers...

[edinmass]

The advantage of driving you car thousands of miles every year is you never have bad gas in it. For many the Grose-jet was a solution looking for a problem. It’s interesting how talented mechanics prefer different types of ignition suppliers, engine oil, tire brands, ect. What works well for one often has caused nightmares for others. I think I dhal take the V-16 out to dinner tonight to check thr Grose-jets are still ok...........😎

[carbking]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 For many the Grose-jet was a solution looking for a problem. ...........😎

 

Ed, actually, there WAS a problem. Unfortunately, the the Grose-Jet wasn't the solution.

 

Before we started machining new kits with new fuel valves in the 1970's, there was a small demand for carburetor parts for lots of different carburetors. The new old stock had pretty well dried up, and the demand was too small for the commercial kit manufacturers to become involved.

 

D & G did address this problem (the valves with all the different adapters), and I would assume  more than just you and Real Steel had success; but lots of folks didn't.

 

And to be fair; one thing about being in the repair business, one is going to hear about the failures, not the successes.

 

Jon.

[John Byrd]

Jon, thanks so much for the info about the old crumbly Marvel carb for my friends Essex.  He is a mechanic (and a good one), so he should have no trouble adapting something.

[Real Steel]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

The advantage of driving you car thousands of miles every year is you never have bad gas in it. For many the Grose-jet was a solution looking for a problem. It’s interesting how talented mechanics prefer different types of ignition suppliers, engine oil, tire brands, ect. What works well for one often has caused nightmares for others. I think I dhal take the V-16 out to dinner tonight to check thr Grose-jets are still ok...........😎

 

Obviously your area does not have fuel containing ethanol and a bunch of anti-pollution ingredients.  Its this same junk in the fuel that causes the rubber tips on the needle valves to deteriorate.  Even Viton tips degrade over time, albeit they last a bit longer than rubber.

 

I've rebuilt carbs for some people here in California.  I do it mostly as a favor, I don't sell parts.   When I take them apart those carbs tend to show issues with the needle tips, and they also have an odd yellow-like powered substance on all the fuel-contacting components (after the fuel is removed and the carb has dried out).  These are carbs that were running on California fuel for only about a year.  Naturally , not all carbs show the exact same symptoms, but I do see a trend.

 

When possible, I rebuild using a 2- ball type float valve, and I emphasize the use of Marvel Oil in the gas.  Its a method that has worked for me for many years.   

 

 

 

[edinmass]

I run E10 in all my cars.........and Massachuetts has more junk in their gas than you can shake a stick at. I have run cork floats with both factory and Viton needle and seats. Depending on the carburetor and fuel system I make my choices accordingly. Often what is sold today is Chinese crap........and things don't go together correctly or work as intended. With a Pierce V-12 the under hood temperatures boil the carbs dry in a few minutes............as when you put the car away if its at full operating temperature, the carbs will be dry for the next start up.

[trini]

INTERESTING  discussion. Now for you John Byrd. The old Rochester carbs on the 28 and maybe other cars had bad pot metal that deteriorated / cracked over tine. They were indexed "UX"   according to my owners manual. A blogger on this forum sent  one, "a garden shed find to fit my 28  DB, but it was all cracked. He was an honest to goodness gentleman. Charged me for shipping only. IF YOU ARE OUT THERE COULD WE RENEW AQUAINTANCES ? Meyers early dodge sent it out to Australia and had it recast in aluminium. Great job. But I did not know how to hook up the rods. The butterfly shaft were pulling against the block.  That is why I am using the Carter B B 1. I also had a UX 3 In very good condition . I shipped them to Australia to a friend. He may still have them. 

[John Byrd]

Jon, thanks so much for the info about the old crumbly Marvel carb for my friends Essex.  He is a mechanic (and a good one), so he should have no trouble adapting something.

[John Byrd]

Trini, thanks.  Another gent has posted on the private message part, and with all you guys help, perhaps Ian can get his old buggy running.  He is still not back from SEMA, but I dropped by the shop anyway and the old car really looks neat.  It almost looks like it has never been restored, but if it was, it was long ago, but still looks good.

[26-25Buick]

On 11/7/2019 at 8:00 AM, Graham Man said:

How about one of these?  After driving a Model A for a day, and making a dozen or so trips to wash my hands, I would get one.  The only reason I can see for a updraft being more of a problem than a downdraft is because of the proximity (lower or higher) to the fuel tank?

 

https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-fuel-shut-off-valve-modern-style-6-volt.html

 

 

Has anyone tried these on a larger displacement engine than the Model A? Is the valve bore large enough to supply fuel for a 6 or 8 cylinder Buick motor? In my case it’s a low pressure delivery system i.e. no electric fuel pump