Sactownog Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 I spoke to the machine shop that has done some work for my MOPAR 230 FLAT HEAD 6 ENGINE, they recommended diesel oil over the non-deturgent 30w oil that was recommended in the past. I am currently rebuilding the engine, I have turned the crank, got new pistons, rings, am going to bore the cylinder's and now am now trying to figure out what oil I should use for the engine. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) CI-4 diesel oil has a good amount of ZDDP. Read Richard Widman's paper about it. http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html Oil for petrol cars must have reduced ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous) to no damage the catalytic converter. There are very many topics on these fora about engine oil. There is one on "Zinc" here at the moment. There is a plethora of reading for you, though it is your job to separate the myths from the facts. Edited October 29, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said: CI-4 diesel oil has a good amount of ZDDP. Read Richard Widman's paper about it. http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.htm Unfortunately that article was written in 2013. Today some diesel oils (CK-4) have lower ZDDP levels just like oil for gasoline engines. Rotella still seems to be around 1200 PPM. If you want to be sure, use a motorsports oil like Gibbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said: CI-4 diesel oil has a good amount of ZDDP. Read Richard Widman's paper about it. http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html Good luck finding that if you happen to live in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Penrite make high zinc content oils, which I believe you can buy from restoration supply co https://www.penriteoil.com.au/applications/speciality/vintage-classic It's pretty much a religious debate about what's best for your vehicle, about the only thing people generally agree on is that modern stuff is better than what they had in the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 For goodness sakes! The cheapest oil today is superior to the best oil from the late '40s and back. Only high performance engines with stronger valve springs need zddp. You will be good with any oil you can get. Personally , I use Rotella. Ben 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: For goodness sakes! The cheapest oil today is superior to the best oil from the late '40s and back. Only high performance engines with stronger valve springs need zddp. You will be good with any oil you can get. Personally , I use Rotella. Ben 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Thanks for the vote of confidence, Matt. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude17 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 When is all this nonsense about what oil to use is going to end? I assume that the engine you are talking about is from the mid 1950's or thereabout and here we are in 2019 and the engine is still capable of being used after a lifetime of using that dreaded non-detergent oil albeit after re-conditioning. My point is that in all probability after a long and probably less cared for life than it is now is now going to get somehow before the engine is put back into use it needs this great debate and the reading of long and technical articles about what oil to use. My only suggestion if you cannot make up your own mind contact the technical department of any of the reputable oil companies and ask them. My oil of choice would be something like a 10W40 or 15W 40 oil. Some on these forums are obsessed with synthetic oil and if you want to use them do so but as I have previously stated discuss it with technical people who know what they are talking about. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 I use Penrite semi synthetic (10w40 or 5w40) when its on special at my local auto store, 6L for about $25. Apparently mediterranean people live longer on extra virgin olive oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 If it was mine I would treat it like a new engine since that is what it is. Break it in on a good name brand 10W30 then switch to synthetic. My only concern would be if the rear main seal will hold back synthetic oil, have heard some won't but that may be on old worn engines. Your flathead has a lightly loaded valve train like a modern overhead cam job. You could think of yours as an underhead cam engine lol. So, no need for zinc or special additives. For long valve and ring life you could add a little Redex, Marvel Mystery Oil or other top end lubricant to the gas. Today's gas is very 'dry' compared to what they made when your engine was new. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 5 hours ago, maok said: I use Penrite semi synthetic (10w40 or 5w40) when its on special at my local auto store, 6L for about $25. Lucky dog! It is usually over $90 for 10 L here, on special, for the CI-4 diesel semi-synthetic oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Spinneyhill said: Lucky dog! It is usually over $90 for 10 L here, on special, for the CI-4 diesel semi-synthetic oil. Normally its about $45 for the 6L. Do you have Supercheap or Repco there spinney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Just now, maok said: Normally its about $45 for the 6L. Do you have Supercheap or Repco there spinney? Both. Usually $125 or $133 from them per 10 L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 7 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: The cheapest oil today is superior to the best oil from the late '40s and back. As long as you are not talking "non-detergent" oil, which is probably the cheapest, base stock and not much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Spinneyhill said: As long as you are not talking "non-detergent" oil, which is probably the cheapest, base stock and not much different. Well, yeah! My slip up. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: Both. Usually $125 or $133 from them per 10 L. Bloody hell! It would be cheaper to have it shipped from here in Oz to NZ....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Yup. Sacto', take the guys advice, and heed what Stude 17 says. Have a good long talk with your Mobil and Amsoil reps. Go synthetic. Amsoil has a state-of-the-art break in oil, and their explanation is extremely informative regarding cylinder wall wear in. Talk to the reps about their recommendations for oil, and please report back with what you learn. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SYNTHETIC GREASE. Ask the Mobil and Amsoil reps to find out why. - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Use break in oil after the completed rebuild. Then use standard off the shelf conventional oil. Add some oil additive (zinc). I use Supertech 10w-40 from Walmart. The oil depending on region is manufactured by Citgo, Warren and or Quaker State. The zinc level is between 600-800 ppm. I add Rislone oil additive with zinc. The cost of oil, filter and additive is around $25.00. For as little as I drive my Buicks(about 2000 each per year) it does not make economical sense to drop $40-$50 on synthetics or other specialty oils specifically if one performs annual oil change like I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 18 hours ago, joe_padavano said: Unfortunately that article was written in 2013. Today some diesel oils (CK-4) have lower ZDDP levels just like oil for gasoline engines. Rotella still seems to be around 1200 PPM. If you want to be sure, use a motorsports oil like Gibbs. Take a careful look at these diesel oils as the zinc has been reduced in some of these as of late. Emissions control and converters in the exhaust systems for emissions standards has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sactownog Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 what are your thoughts on royal purple oil for the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Sactownog said: what are your thoughts on royal purple oil for the engine? My readings concerning RP is it is a very good oil. Does contain zinc but at the required level for emissions control(low enough to not damage convertors in the exhaust system). The truck and race oils contain the higher zinc content as convertors in the exhaust are a non-factor). If you are concerned about zinc purchase classic car oil. I have used Lucas Classic Car Oil without issue. As a side note, I replaced lifters, rebuild the heads and honed/installed new rings. Did not replace the cam (Buick 264 nailhead) I broke in the engine using standard oil with zinc additive. Performanced the high rpm initial start up. Then drove 500 miles. Once done changed the oil with same I used to break in. Added zinc. No issues. Edited October 30, 2019 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 (edited) Well, since you are considering spending RP money, in that case, why not just go ahead and use the VERY BEST oil for your engine ? There are a couple of companies whose products across the wide board, test out above the rest. I was researching gear lubes, and was surprised to find that in a number of categories, RP and Lucas (which I had been using in ignorance), were unacceptable. Some companies do a good job at blowing their own horn, and everyone can hear them. Hear it long enough, and you become seduced by it. Once I realize that any product does not measure up to the self-generated hype, I become skeptical about their entire product line. Bottom line, Sacto', is find an Amsoil dealer, or rep, or go online. Amsoil has an extremely good reputation, and tests at or near the top of the heap. For cars such as yours, Amsoil Z-Rod has been developed. Available in 10W/30, and 20W/50, or mix half and half for 15W/40. Formulated to resist corrosion in engines which are not daily drivers laid up for periods of time. And more. Like I say, if you are gonna spend Purple bucks, why not just get the best. Check it out, and please read the description of wear in, and their product SPECIFICALLY designed to do the job. I always close with a disclaimer. I have absolutely no connection to Amsoil. I am not a dealer, I don't have stock, do not even know if Amsoil is publicly traded. I just use it. Standard challenge : If anyone can prove there is a better product, I will change to it. You've got a newly overhauled engine coming. You may be driving that engine for a very long time. - Cadillac Carl P.S. Yeah, and Z-Rod has just about the right amount of ZDDP. More than you will need, but not too much. Edited October 30, 2019 by C Carl Add P.S. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 (edited) Cadillac Carl, every company does a great job blowing their own horns! 😂 Maybe consider Red Line. I use Red Line MT-90 in my manual. Best performance using this brand. Edited October 30, 2019 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 I also use Redline in transmissions. They were making Synchromesh oil that works correctly back in the 90s when basically no-one else was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Just NEVER consider using non-detergent oil in a rebuilt engine! Anything else on the shelf at the store will work fine. The 230 cu in was designed before the oil companies put any ZDDP in oil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sactownog Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 what is zddp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sactownog Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 why is it needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Sactownog said: what is zddp? Zinc in engine oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Sactownog said: why is it needed? Helps reduce wear in flat tappet motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said: Just NEVER consider using non-detergent oil in a rebuilt engine! Anything else on the shelf at the store will work fine. The 230 cu in was designed before the oil companies put any ZDDP in oil! It is to my understanding zinc was introduced in the late 1930s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Invented in 1941 by Lubrizol. API SB oil came out in 1930 or so, with SA being for engines up to 1930. SC is for engines built after 1951. So unless API changed the specs between 1931 and 1951 to include ZDDP, it didn't show up in requirements until SC rated oil. I cannot find API requirements for additives in SB and SC oil, though, so I can be wrong!😁 http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm 230 cu in. first in 1942 Dodge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 10w-30 is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmhowe Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 I have a 1966 Morgan with a four speed Moss gearbox. Most people recommend using a 30 weight oil in it. Mine had 30 weight in it, but I was unhappy with its performance. It shifted more slowly than it should and had the annoying problem of popping out of gear on hills. I replaced the 30 weight with RedLine MT 90, based upon the company's recommendation. The car now shifts more smoothly and quickly and no longer pops out of gear, even on very steep hills. However, when I tried the MT 90 in my 1935 Cadillac, it made shifting awful. The synchronizers barely worked at all. I suspect the MT 90 is too light an oil for that transmission. I’m currently trying to sort out what to try next - probably Redline or Amsoil 75w140. Both are claimed safe for yellow metals. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, pmhowe said: However, when I tried the MT 90 in my 1935 Cadillac, it made shifting awful. The synchronizers barely worked at all. I suspect the MT 90 is too light an oil for that transmission. I’m currently trying to sort out what to try next - probably Redline or Amsoil 75w140. Both are claimed safe for yellow metals. I had the same experience with my 1936 Pierce. I've had best results mixing GL-1 90 and 140 half-and-half. That car also has a standard BW OD, and I use the same lube in the OD box, and there's migration of oil between the two boxes. My 1948 Willys, also with a BW OD, owners manual is very explicit in its instruction to use straight mineral oil (i.e., GL-1) in the trans and OD but Extreme Pressure (EP) oil in the diff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 No doubt some of the lighter gear oil do not slow down the synchro fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) That's not really how it is supposed to work. The synchronizer is a friction device, literally a brake. The issue isn't weight, its that the oil cannot be too slippery or the synchronizer will not be able to stop the gear. Hypoid gear oils are really slippery and do everything in their power to prevent the braking action. Some synchronizers are huge, and have perpendicular grooves machined in them to scrape the oil off of the cone. Those can deal with extra-slippery oil for a while. Maybe not forever. Others may be just barely working when new. Heavier oil can slow gears down quicker, and help with shifting in spite of synchronizers that don't really work. It boils down to timing. Grimy mentioned GL-1. That is close to straight mineral oil, and is likely to provide much better results than typical GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil from the parts store. Edited November 2, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, Bloo said: That's not really how it is supposed to work. The synchronizer is a friction device, literally a brake. The issue isn't weight, its that the oil cannot be too slippery or the synchronizer will not be able to stop the gear. Hypoid gear oils are really slippery and do everything in their power to prevent the braking action. Some synchronizers are huge, and have perpendicular grooves machined in them to scrape the oil off of the cone. Those can deal with extra-slippery oil for a while. Maybe not forever. Others may be just barely working when new. Heavier oil can slow gears down quicker, and help with shifting in spite of synchronizers that don't really work. It boils down to timing. Grimy mentioned GL-1. That is close to straight mineral oil, and is likely to provide much better results than typical GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil from the parts store. It is a brake and the friction material seen inside the cup for sure. Great post and how oils affect operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now