alsfarms Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I just looked over the RM auction results, that are available on the Internet. It appears that our hobby pricing is now backing off and appears to be heading in a more realistic direction, when it comes to car selling prices. Hmmm, I wonder if that general price shift will also have an impact on restoration shops who have been used to some of us spending big dollars hoping to end up making HUGE dollars on automobile sells. It has been years since I recall seeing nice restored "Classic" sedans selling for the 20's. What are other of your sensing with our market and hobby price shifting? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Keep in mind that most of those cars did not run, had not run in years and had major problems. But I suspect when the magazines review the cars they will all be just short of perfect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 It is impossible to judge cars at auction without standing in front of them. Many/most of the museum cars at this auction required complete restorations. I do believe the market for project cars is dying. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I was at Hershey, didn’t have time to attend, but friends of mine who did told me the decent cars were not cheap and actually were higher than normal. A recent BAT auction of a complete but even not driveable 31’ Oldsmobile convertible sold for $15,000. That was a decent sellers price for that car. I thought it would have gone for $9-11,000 but instead the bidding was hot and it brought the $15k. I think the pre war cars that are somewhat out of the normal Model A and T crowd are starting to creep up. Another BAT auction of a Buick 90 series roadster brought $115,000. Not chump change either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, alsancle said: It is impossible to judge cars at auction without standing in front of them. Many/most of the museum cars at this auction required complete restorations. I do believe the market for project cars is dying. The only rule we have on project cars is that if you want them to move they better be priced under 100K no matter what six digits they are worth restored and there are a lot of project cars out there. I do believe stuff that has not run in a while comes with risks and as a result discounts. I hate to say it to anyone hoping for discounts, but really well restored stuff has always done well and always will, as does truly excellent originals and especially convertibles and certain sports and muscle cars. Brass cars are not dying, they just are owned mostly by people who do not show them - plenty drive them though. And, all the rest is suffering - I would call it an economic recession showing itself in cars - and the reason I say this is that we have seen a period of unsubstantiated growth that is not supported by the volume of buyers (you see it happening to certain businesses too - they just cannot grow enough yearly to meet the wants of their shareholders) aka I do not believe it has much to do with age as plenty of people like the cars but they have skyrocketed in price making them unobtainable to so many who have the interest. Edited October 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, chistech said: I was at Hershey, didn’t have time to attend, but friends of mine who did told me the decent cars were not cheap and actually were higher than normal. A recent BAT auction of a complete but even not driveable 31’ Oldsmobile convertible sold for $15,000. That was a decent sellers price for that car. I thought it would have gone for $9-11,000 but instead the bidding was hot and it brought the $15k. I think the pre war cars that are somewhat out of the normal Model A and T crowd are starting to creep up. Another BAT auction of a Buick 90 series roadster brought $115,000. Not chump change either. I thought about right price on Oldsmobile - hard to find a really solid one as a base product and this one actually could have been put on the road for probably under 4K. And if you were to restore you get a fine car end result and a substantial discount in cost over say restoring one that is rough. Example, I took a LaSalle grill to the plater and he said 6K - I bought a near perfect one on ebay for $1,200 (plus $100 shipping) and then paid 3K for plating = $1,700 cost savings. Edited October 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I agree John, if I was looking for one and really wanted it, I would of paid that. What I meant seeing that the demand appears to be lower on the pre war cars, I expected it to go for less. I’m actually glad it went higher and left a post stating that. There’s some hope for the earlier cars I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) Earlier this year - I transported this 1903 Dyke along with a 1908 Reo from California to North Carolina when the owner relocated. He put it in that auction at no reserve. The owner was pleased with what it sold for .... @ https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf19/hershey/lots/r0166-1903-dyke-no-1-gasoline-runabout/798405 Jim Edited October 26, 2019 by Trulyvintage (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, alsancle said: It is impossible to judge cars at auction without standing in front of them. Many/most of the museum cars at this auction required complete restorations. I do believe the market for project cars is dying. Al. If the market was dying, the cars wouldn't be selling. What is happening is the market is shifting to a different type of buyer: buyers who are not interested in paying extravagant prices, especially for project cars. In my opinion, there will always be a market for old cars -- a butt for every seat, as they say -- but a price drop is good for the hobby as it gets these cars into the hands of people that can afford them. That's not to say that periodic price increases is not good, either, as without higher values, many reproduction parts would never have been made, and many "lesser" body styles would have never been restored to the quality we have seen. Also, today's general-car buyers tend not to put together a whole collection of cars as the collectors of the past. That may change, however, as prices drop to certain levels. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted October 26, 2019 Author Share Posted October 26, 2019 My what a nice "Dyke" motorcar. Excellent pictures. Thanks for posting! West, I could not agree more. It would like to think that we are evolving back to being a more "doer" oriented hobby. I mean that in the sense that we do more of our own work again instead of thinking that we simply must farm out everything we do because we are thinking of money $ in the end. Other areas of our world enjoy the hobby at a different scale for sure. Thanks for your comment and thoughts. Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 In my opinion - from a transporter perspective - the single influential factor in the collector car market in general in all categories that affects prices: Overseas Buyers When cars stay in the country - particularly quality examples see prices fall as supply increases. There are simply more choices. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, alsancle said: I do believe the market for project cars is dying. Rose colored glasses are immune to market trends. Writing that makes me chuckle and reminisce. About ten years ago I reached a point in my life where all the cars in the garage ran, were licensed, and ready to drive. My wife noticed it, I noticed it, and I think I need to sell something to make room for a project. I have been resisting this for 3 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/26/2019 at 7:07 AM, West Peterson said: Al. If the market was dying, the cars wouldn't be selling. What is happening is the market is shifting to a different type of buyer: buyers who are not interested in paying extravagant prices, especially for project cars. In my opinion, there will always be a market for old cars -- a butt for every seat, as they say -- but a price drop is good for the hobby as it gets these cars into the hands of people that can afford them. That's not to say that periodic price increases is not good, either, as without higher values, many reproduction parts would never have been made, and many "lesser" body styles would have never been restored to the quality we have seen. Also, today's general-car buyers tend not to put together a whole collection of cars as the collectors of the past. That may change, however, as prices drop to certain levels. West, I didn't say the market as a whole was dying, just project cars. The point in time where an economy 4 door project is only scrap is coming fast if not already here. Nice cars still sell, fairly easily. But the skills necessary to do a ground up restoration on a project are diminishing by the day, forcing the costs up and making most projects not possible. The lost skills are across the board, not just the professional restoration guys. For every young new guy you give me, I'll give you four old guys that are retiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 For interesting cars once the price is low enough (under a grand) one is hard to resist. That is the case of my current project: an SLK230 compressor with a nice body and paint, no rust, and just needs what is easy for me, interior plastic and some wiring. Retractible hardtop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, alsancle said: West, I didn't say the market as a whole was dying, just project cars. The point in time where an economy 4 door project is only scrap is coming fast if not already here. Nice cars still sell, fairly easily. But the skills necessary to do a ground up restoration on a project are diminishing by the day, forcing the costs up and making most projects not possible. The lost skills are across the board, not just the professional restoration guys. For every young new guy you give me, I'll give you four old guys that are retiring. The only thing we run across is that it can be a 200K restored car, 300K, or 400K or ... restored car when done, but if you price it at say $105 do not expect it to sell overnight unless it is mind blowing extraordinary. I was really surprised the Reo Royale Cabriolet did not sell the day they dropped price below 100K - the only thing I can think of was that it was green in color matched to their not carefully photographing it, as well as photographing all the parts. And even if the restoration was backyard, you still should have been able to do a nice top, interior, and fully assemble with room for at least a small profit (plus, it is a really great 30's car). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, alsancle said: West, I didn't say the market as a whole was dying, just project cars. The point in time where an economy 4 door project is only scrap is coming fast if not already here. Nice cars still sell, fairly easily. But the skills necessary to do a ground up restoration on a project are diminishing by the day, forcing the costs up and making most projects not possible. The lost skills are across the board, not just the professional restoration guys. For every young new guy you give me, I'll give you four old guys that are retiring. Also, it gets harder and harder by the day - ex. my local hardware store use to stock a nice variety of fine thread bolts/nuts and slotted head screws in stainless hardware - now I have to internet shop. I am putting together a car currently and surprises me what I could buy two years ago when doing the last car that I have trouble finding today. And, age seems to have caught up with a lot of people very quickly. Edited October 27, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 In the early 1960's I was told to stay away from four door cars, project or not. "Don't waste your time with closed cars, Sonny" the old mavin, with his palsied hand curled and finger pointing (like the old guy from Vermont). I didn't listen then. And his counterpart at work scolded me because I didn't coil a rope like he did when he worked with horse harnesses. I have had an evil smile remembering him every time I wound up an extension cord, smiling now. The best thing you will ever get from advice is limitations. If you like cars just buy what you can afford. You know what your tastes are. Acceptance into a group of like thinkers ain't what it is cracked up to be. I have a book called Bright Wheels Rolling , copyright about 1950. I take it down off the shelf and read a few passages like the one about rolling the wheel on the inside of the fender to work the contour back in. A lot of people are missing a good time trying to conform or "make a profit". I just like cars; old and new. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 2 hours ago, John_Mereness said: The only thing we run across is that it can be a 200K restored car, 300K, or 400K or ... restored car when done, but if you price it at say $105 do not expect it to sell overnight unless it is mind blowing extraordinary. I was really surprised the Reo Royale Cabriolet did not sell the day they dropped price below 100K - the only thing I can think of was that it was green in color matched to their not carefully photographing it, as well as photographing all the parts. And even if the restoration was backyard, you still should have been able to do a nice top, interior, and fully assemble with room for at least a small profit (plus, it is a really great 30's car). Me too, especially after I spent the day driving out to see it and posting a trip report. I think the poor pictures and location were hurting it before. But now he's taken some much better ones, including with the top material on it. Very strange. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Maybe the guys with big money. 100 G and over to spend on cars, just want to buy done cars as they have all been burned out on projects, often probably buying something that looks good, only to find out it all needs to be done over to be up to their snuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Yep, really nice car - it just needs a bunch of little stuff but certainly decent enough to bring home to any neighborhood without embarrassment (lots of evenings and weekends, a shame someone painted the lock rings and that is not the easiest fix, and a pricey upholstery bill needed) and a fine "open" car when you are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: Maybe the guys with big money. 100 G and over to spend on cars, just want to buy done cars as they have all been burned out on projects, often probably buying something that looks good, only to find out it all needs to be done over to be up to their snuff. There is a lot of this - yes ! And, I have walked into some things that look pretty and do not have a decent mechanical part in them. I will tell you the story of a friend's 1935 Auburn 851 S/C Phaeton that was particularly nice cosmetically, though coughed and died about 10 feet from the trailer on delivery and I knew enough upon quick glace to see car was just plain unsafe. We found 8 lock washers on the entire car and they were on the back axle to springs - yet the nuts were not tight - matched to the whole car literally being assembled from the junk drawer of the workbench. The transmission was improperly assembled, the vacuum from the engine had sucked out all the rear differential oil (everything was just worn out and the problem pretty much finished everything off), the supercharger had a bad bearing, the rod journal nuts were finger tight, and ... - we spent a whole winter changing every piece of hardware on the car and rebuilding everything (interestingly though the machine work was well done and ...). It was not a bad experience as the goal as to make it a road/tour car, but nevertheless.... Sidenote: When you know something is well done both cosmetically and mechanically (and it is rare to have both) - it really does sell for a high premium. Edited October 27, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted sweet Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 they create an event that 99.9 percent of car owners cant even get into . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, ted sweet said: they create an event that 99.9 percent of car owners cant even get into . Are you talking about the RM auction? The outside tents are open to anyone to see the cars, assuming you can find a parking spot at the Lodge. As for the auction itself, I don't think RM is in the business of providing entertainment to someone that isn't going to buy a car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 The interior is presentable. I describe it as a car you can bring to 90% of the Shows in the U.S. and be happily accepted. Basically, everything but Pebble, Amelia and a couple of the other very high end shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 20 minutes ago, alsancle said: As for the auction itself, I don't think RM is in the business of providing entertainment to someone that isn't going to buy a car. I think they are: They charge admission to auctions. They charge prospective bidders just for the opportunity to buy. I always respect auctioneers that have reasonable fees and good ethics. One antique-car auction in Pennsylvania that I know gets excellent cars but charges far less. There need to be more of them in our hobby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said: I think they are: They charge admission to auctions. They charge prospective bidders just for the opportunity to buy. I always respect auctioneers that have reasonable fees and good ethics. One antique-car auction in Pennsylvania that I know gets excellent cars but charges far less. There need to be more of them in our hobby. Correct. I should have said "free entertainment". They have about the right price point as the ball room is packed on Friday night. For Thursday's flotsam and jetsam there was room and seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 As to prices of the brass cars, a few bought at this auction are being discussed here and there on the web, with lots of issues and even missing parts. A friend at Hershey interpreted some of the "low" prices as "no one wants brass cars any more", a comment which drives me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 38 minutes ago, trimacar said: As to prices of the brass cars, a few bought at this auction are being discussed here and there on the web, with lots of issues and even missing parts. A friend at Hershey interpreted some of the "low" prices as "no one wants brass cars any more", a comment which drives me crazy. That and "We need young people in the hobby" drives me equally crazy, maybe because I joined the hobby when I was 10 years old 58 years ago. What was the age bracket of those brass car buyers at Hershey. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 7 hours ago, John_Mereness said: And, age seems to have caught up with a lot of people very quickly. That would be a truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Every museum car's were missing parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I was not going to wade in here but the notion that any of the boutique national auctions are about entertainment is , well absurd in my opinion. Whether it is RMSothebys, Bonhams or Goodings they make minuscule money letting people in to the auctions that are not bidders. They are about selling cars. They do give away a lot of comp tickets for a variety of reasons and have to place a charge to enter to make sure their small venues do not get overrun by enthusiasts leaving little room for those that are paying the bills. Most of us have little understanding of the economics of running these auctions. The cost of the programs would astound many as well. I have certainly learned over the last decade how expensive these auctions are for the companies. Think about it rent, adverting, staff, transport of vehicles, and on and on... At Hershey, RM pays a fortune to erect the two tents ans of course there is a charge for using the facility for the week. We should not feel entitled to attend any of these events. RM graciously has given free entrance to their spring auction at Auburn and free bidders passes as well. One thing many do not know is the donation that these auctions usually make to local events. RM supported three non-profits in the area this fall, made a nice donation to AACA and to the Hershey Region. As to the brass era prices, opinions very. Hard to properly price cars that were not in running condition and as many have said some were missing some parts. The great thing is that maybe a lot of these cars will be back on the road touring again and that is a real plus! There did seem to be a price weakening of the large horsepower brass cars but maybe that is not a bad thing for those that have craved one. The danger always is not over-reacting to anything. Time will tell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I thought vehicle transport was up to the seller/ consignor, the way I read the auction companies contract when I thought of running my 68 Big block Vette through one. Figured it wasn't worth tacking on all those fees to the car , especially if it didn't sell, then I had to mark up a car that wasn't selling to cover all the added costs. Maybe they foot the bill on the real High end stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Depends on the deal you make, but for 99% of the consigners they are on the hook for all transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 I know the auctioneers have overhead but wow at 10 percent buyers premium, 10 percent sellers premium, admission fees and say 4 million in sales at one venue they take in 800G or more before expenses, not a bad gig. Now talk a serious auction where a 20 million dollar car is sold amongst others and definitely should be in the green, even with the free alcohol and female bidding Coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Randy, your numbers are low on the buyers fees.....it’s 12 percent under 250 if memory serves me, then 10 over that amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 From now on, every car I sell will carry a 10% "buyer's premium." So whatever you see advertised with my name on it, figure another 10% on top of that. I have overhead and employees. We print brochures and flyers. We travel to events and pay for shipping on many of the cars we sell. We let visitors, even non-buyers, come into our showroom and look at cars for free, and pay for the 25,000 square foot space plus heat and insurance and electricity and taxes. Heck, we even fix the cars rather than pushing them onto the auction block and then onto a trailer for the new owner to deal with. As a result, I feel like I deserve an extra 10% profit just for being so good to the hobby. Anyone still want to buy cars from me? 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: Anyone still want to buy cars from me? Matt, do you have female bidding coaches and booze? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 41 minutes ago, edinmass said: Randy, your numbers are low on the buyers fees.....it’s 12 percent under 250 if memory serves me, then 10 over that amount. I wanted to be a little conservative. I've only bought at mom and pop auctions and it was low numbers where my total bid for half a truck load of parts including a real nice fully loaded Valve grinder with cabinet and stones came up to around $400 from a closed Chevy dealership. I probably wouldn't be good at these big time auctions. I don't drink and the wife might knock out a female bidding coach or two. Might make for some real good reality TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 35 minutes ago, Grimy said: Matt, do you have female bidding coaches and booze? Probably not yet, but if he gets an extra 10 percent, he might start hiring a few. You have to write it off somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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