Fuel delivery issues on my '63 (401 no a/c)

[JanZverina 23]

 Here's the saga so far. I had my 4GC carb rebuilt by a known to be good and recommended shop in San Diego. Initial issues were flooding due to stuck or out of adjustment floats. After rebuild and installation, the Riv bogs down on any longer or steeper inclines, and bogs down at anything above 50 mph, so freeway driving is out of the question. No bog from standstill.

I took it back (installed on the car) to the shop. They checked:

  - The float adjustment, all vacuum hoses,and inlets, accel pump function, and secondaries function.

   - All rubber and metal fuel lines back to the fuel tank for kinks or crimps. 

   -To see if the tank sock was clogged by blowing compressed air into the fuel line from the inlet side of the fuel pump and listening/looking at the tank fill tube with gas cap off. All good,

   - Scoped the ignition system (has a Pertronix Ignitor). All OK.

   - The fuel pump, which was putting out about 6+ lbs. pressure, but IIRC that was at idle or low revs while in Park.

 The chief mechanic is out of ideas but said the fuel pump could be failing under load. Other ideas welcome as to what else may cause fuel starvation on steeper inclines as well as limiting the speed to under 50. I may have to inspect the fuel tank more closely, but for now, can someone recommend where to get a decent quality fuel pump these days? The shop recommended NAPA but maybe my fellow ROA members have another recommendation?

  Again, any other ideas of what to check for are welcome - maybe some of you have had a similar issue.

P.S. I did manage to to get my Riv there and back home under its own power, but it was a real challenge at times because of the canyon topography in this area!

 

[Riviera63 227]

1 minute ago, JanZverina said:

 Here's the saga so far. I had my 4GC carb rebuilt by a known to be good and recommended shop in San Diego. Initial issues were flooding due to stuck or out of adjustment floats. After rebuild and installation, the Riv bogs down on any longer or steeper inclines, and bogs down at anything above 50 mph, so freeway driving is out of the question. No bog from standstill.

I took it back (installed on the car) to the shop. They checked:

  - The float adjustment, all vacuum hoses,and inlets, accel pump function, and secondaries function.

   - All rubber and metal fuel lines back to the fuel tank for kinks or crimps. 

   -To see if the tank sock was clogged by blowing compressed air into the fuel line from the inlet side of the fuel pump and listening/looking at the tank fill tube with gas cap off. All good,

   - Scoped the ignition system (has a Pertronix Ignitor). All OK.

   - The fuel pump, which was putting out about 6+ lbs. pressure, but IIRC that was at idle or low revs while in Park.

 The chief mechanic is out of ideas but said the fuel pump could be failing under load. Other ideas welcome as to what else may cause fuel starvation on steeper inclines as well as limiting the speed to under 50. I may have to inspect the fuel tank more closely, but for now, can someone recommend where to get a decent quality fuel pump these days? The shop recommended NAPA but maybe my fellow ROA members have another recommendation?

  Again, any other ideas of what to check for are welcome - maybe some of you have had a similar issue.

P.S. I did manage to to get my Riv there and back home under its own power, but it was a real challenge at times because of the canyon topography in this area!

 

 

 

That sounds exactly like the symptoms when my fuel pump went on my 63. I replaced it with a NAPA fuel pump and have not had any issues. That was 5 years ago. I also had a significant increase in fuel mileage. With the old fuel pump I was getting 9-10 mpg. Now I get 13-16 mpg. 

 

Bill

[Seafoam65 725]

Put a fuel pump on the car! Also check for any cracks in the  suction fuel line from the tank to the pump. By the way, the way you are checking the

sock in the tank sounds bogus to me. I would go ahead and put on a new one if the fuel pump doesn't solve it. Also, a low float level on the carb would do

what your car is doing......are you certain the float level is correct?

[JanZverina 23]

Thanks Bill and Winston. Winston - you recommend NAPA as well? Yes, float levels were already checked twice. I can also eliminate the fuel tank and lines altogether by running a 5-gallon can and hose straight into the pump.

[telriv 402]

Correct float levels on the 4GC are imperative. They are diff. front & rear.  BEFORE replacing fuel pump check the outlet hose at the tank. It curves up & it good have a crack in it that sucks air under even a light demand & will NOT leak fuel.  For the heck of it replace it especially if original & road test.  It doesn't have A/C so you can't block the return line as no A/C has no return line.

Report back

 

Tom T.

[JanZverina 23]

Thanks Tom. Is that a 3/8 as well back there?

[telriv 402]

Yes, 3/8ths it is.  Just use the proper hose for today's fuel.

[JanZverina 23]

Anyone know the difference between the fuel sending units (tank-mounted) for '63 and '64? CARS Inc. lists '64 only and they're unsure. Does anyone know if the sock is the same? I'm more interested in obtaining a new sock for a '63 tank, non-A/C if that matters. More diagnosis to come this weekend, the first inspection being the hose outlet at the tank as tel riv suggests.

Thanks!

 

[RivNut 2,910]

Somewhere between 1963 and 1965 the ohms changed from 45 to 90.  I thought it was in 1965 but I'm not positive.  Someone is though.  That could be it.  Does CARS offer one for a 65?

[JanZverina 23]

No, in fact even the 1964 sending unit and sock is for Skylarks not Rivs. I saw an earlier thread on this forum that had some info:

 

[telriv 402]

Jan,

 

   Fuel sending units were 45ohms '64 & back. 1965 & up were 90ohms.  The fuel socks are all the same & are still available from GM & are 3/8ths.

On the Skylarks the diff. is they are 5/16ths. & 3/8ths for Skylark GS. Bigger engine more fuel required to feed it.

[JanZverina 23]

Thanks TelRiv, 

Do you have a part #? The Genuine GM parts website does not let me go earlier than 1984. Much appreciated!

[RivNut 2,910]

I Googled 'ACDelco fuel tank 3/8" sock' and found this:  ACDelco 5651711 GM Original Equipement Fuel Pump Strainer.  About $12

  

[Riviera63 227]

1 hour ago, JanZverina said:

Thanks TelRiv, 

Do you have a part #? The Genuine GM parts website does not let me go earlier than 1984. Much appreciated!

 

Ordered the AC Delco TS 1000 from Rock Auto for my car. Available from many different sources and is inexpensive. A smidge too small for the inlet. My shop had no problems enlarging the inlet.

 

Bill

[RivNut 2,910]

Bill, 

The TS 1000 is what I put on my 64 and we had to enlarge the inlet a tad to get it to fit as well.  I'm wonder if the part # I posted might fit w/o having to modify it.  Both parts look the same. Perhaps it might be just the difference in the inlet size.  Perhaps we can talk Jan into buying one of each and comparing them for everyone and posterity.

[awk409ak 25]

On 10/17/2019 at 7:47 PM, telriv said:

Yes, 3/8ths it is.  Just use the proper hose for today's fuel.

Telriv,

So would that be a fuel injector rubber fuel line?

 

Art

[RivNut 2,910]

Just Google "Ethanol proof fuel hose" and you can see what's available and read some reviews. Good information out there.

 

[JanZverina 23]

Many thanks Ed, I'll order the sock.

Hi TelRiv,

Per your suggestion I removed and inspected the short outlet hose at the leading edge of the gas tank. It didn't have any obvious cracks and held under air pressure, but I replaced it because it may have been there for 56 years, and that tank side clamp is tricky to get to. I was able to drop the front of the tank just enough to get the needed access. Ran out of time this weekend, but I have a fuel pump coming mid-week.   

[JanZverina 23]

From Rivnut:

I Googled 'ACDelco fuel tank 3/8" sock' and found this:  ACDelco 5651711 GM Original Equipement Fuel Pump Strainer.  About $12

  

 

I'm finding that the GM 5651711 fuel sock as well as the TS 1000 recommended further up in this thread at no longer available. Can anyone suggest an alternative?

Thanks!

 

[Riviera63 227]

58 minutes ago, JanZverina said:

From Rivnut:

I Googled 'ACDelco fuel tank 3/8" sock' and found this:  ACDelco 5651711 GM Original Equipement Fuel Pump Strainer.  About $12

  

 

I'm finding that the GM 5651711 fuel sock as well as the TS 1000 recommended further up in this thread at no longer available. Can anyone suggest an alternative?

Thanks!

 

There is a TS1000 on e-bay right now.

 

Bill

Edited October 23 by Riviera63 (see edit history)

[JanZverina 23]

Thanks, Bill. After some sleuthing I did find one via Amazon that was in stock. Awaiting a fuel pump delivery as well.

To be continued!

 

[JanZverina 23]

Changing the fuel pump tomorrow. It's been a while since I've done one, so two questions: It came with two of the same pump-to-engine gaskets. Do I use both? And do they need gasket cement?

Thanks!

[telriv 402]

Jan,

 

   No use just one.  Use some weather strip adhesive to glue the gasket to the pump.  Put some grease on the arm that contacts the eccentric. Make sure the pump arm is UNDER, NOT on top of the eccentric.  To kinda make the job easier get the engine at TDC #1 & the eccentric should be up making the pump easier to install

 

Tom T.

[JanZverina 23]

Hi all,

A weekend update, as they say:

Step I: I replaced the fuel pump with a Delphi one from Rock Auto, hopefully not crap. NAPA says the pump is NLA. Since they don't cost much I also ordered one from CARS Inc. which looks to be identical except for no casting of the Delphi name on the pump housing. Prior to installation I rotated the engine to line up the balancer notch at zero, with the rotor pointed toward Cyl. No. 1. The old fuel pump came out easy and the new one went in w/o any struggle. The Riv fired right up, ran on the choke for 30-45 sec or so, and then would stall.

Step 2: Changed the gas filter just to be sure, with the 'IN' or dimples on the inlet side (from the fuel). No difference. I'm definitely getting gas via the pump into the carb (a 4GC.) 

Step 3: I filled my 5-gallon container with fresh fuel, purchased several feet of the best fuel hose (yes, it is expensive per foot!) and ran it from the container into the fuel pump inlet, bypassing any possible fuel tank issues such as a bad sock or other cloggage. I already changed the short hose at the tank and the hose by the right front coil spring. Even with the car's fuel tank connected I'm getting plenty of fuel into the carb visa the pump. 

  So I'm running out of ideas and am back to suspecting the float adjustment or another carb issue.

This may be a clue or not, but worth a mention: This all started a month or so ago after I had the 4GC rebuilt by a recommended carb shop here in San Diego (about the only one left) using a rebuild kit from the Carburetor Shop in Eldon, Missouri. Upon reinstallation it was getting no fuel at all, so rebuilder checked acccel pump and then removed the tiny springs that as I understand it are under the floats on a 4GC. He said the carb was "over engineered" in that area and he typically doesn't reuse them. Upon reinstallation the Riv fired right up and ran well - until encountering any inclines or speeds over 45 mph. The it starts bogging down or stalling, not ideal for San Diego freeways and canyon roads!

So any suggestions on where to look next are much appreciated.

Some questions:

- Does anyone know a good rebuilder (anywhere) to whom I could send the carb to for a thorough diagnosis? I'm done with taking it back to this shop.

- Does anyone have a running 4GC they'd like to part with? I'm leery of buying someone else's problem on eBay, etc.

- Am I better off with a Carter AFB or later Quadrajet, and does that mean another manifold or different linkages, etc.?

- What have others done as far as their carb set-up on a '63 Riv that may not be completely stock but makes the car functional and more reliable?

  Many thanks for your time!!!

 

   

 

[telriv 402]

Jan,

 

   Since you are still having problems the next thing I would do, as I feel you just about covered everything else, is install the points back into your distributor.   I as well as MANY others have had all kinds of different problems with Pertronix conversions.  Remove the Pertronix & re-install points

& condenser & adjust the dwell & check ignition timing.  Something simple to do & shouldn't take you more than 1/2-1 hour.

At this point it's worth a shot.

Just my opinion.

 

Tom T.