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nick8086

Will this happen to the car market?

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Won a lot of autocrosses mostly with a 67 Camaro, then GS Buick, Corvairs,  the V8 Sunbird, then another Corvair, & the Judge. I like to be able to steer with all four.

 

But have slowed down a lot and back tends to hurt if I change a set of tires by hand so those daze are probably changing. Also have as many cars made in this century as the last. Modern cars are just a lot easier to drive and since largest (my tow car) is 188" long, easy to park (particularly with a rear camera).

 

BTW I remember going to a Jim Russel driving school way back that had Formula Fords. Was told they could not drift. Were rong.

 

ps "I suspect if a person was thrifty $1000.00 a year would buy a lot of Golf " dunno, never had a GTI.

Edited by padgett (see edit history)

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Like I said my Father was playing quite a bit of golf right up to a short time before his passing last year. Local courses , nothing fancy but if over $1000.00 I am sure not by much. He was living on a very modest pension. Some very good deals available around here for seniors.

Greg

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47 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

I suspect if a person was thrifty $1000.00 a year would buy a lot of Golf

 

not so sure about  that......................LOL

Would work for me, I went to those courses with windmills, some rocks or other small obstacles, maybe a trick hole or two.   Carried one club, a small paper score sheet and those goofy little pencils with no eraser.  Most expensive part was the ice cream after the round.  No cart, special shoes or lessons required.

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43 minutes ago, padgett said:

Won a lot of autocrosses mostly with a 67 Camaro, then GS Buick, Corvairs,  the V8 Sunbird, then another Corvair, & the Judge. I like to be able to steer with all four.

 

But have slowed down a lot and back tends to hurt if I change a set of tires by hand so those daze are probably changing. Also have as many cars made in this century as the last. Modern cars are just a lot easier to drive and since largest (my tow car) is 188" long, easy to park (particularly with a rear camera).

 

BTW I remember going to a Jim Russel driving school way back that had Formula Fords. Was told they could not drift. Were rong.

 

ps "I suspect if a person was thrifty $1000.00 a year would buy a lot of Golf " dunno, never had a GTI.

 

 

V8 cars are a blast ! But sticky tires are a pretty penny these days.  There is a lot to be said for a very light , responsive chassis with modest power. And X - flow Fords respond very well to tuning if you don't have to be SCCA, Formula Ford class legal. 150 HP is a reasonable target, combined with 1000 pounds all up weight it can be a  pretty quick package.

 

Greg

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3 hours ago, padgett said:

As usual Matt brings things into perspective "V12 Packards, Duesenbergs, Pierce-Arrows, high-end European cars, cars with custom bodywork, big horsepower brass cars, cars with very low production numbers that aren't weird off-brands, cars with desirable optional engines, they will all continue to command strong prices, probably forever. "

And that's true...

 

I've heard people on our forum give that observation:

That high-end cars are strong.  However, at Hershey,

I ran into a fellow AACA region member who specializes

in Classic Packards and has some really nice examples.

He had a V-12 at Hershey and another one, has a beautiful

salon model and others at home.

 

He said that the Classic market is down substantially, too,

and that it is remarkable how demand has fallen in the last

5 or 10 years.  He says there are too many on the market.

 

Such trends may be short-term or longer-term.  We'll see---

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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I agree John. I have a Pierce and it isnt worth much more then a model A.

 

for the very rare and desirable- that's a diff story.

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Think the tipping year was around 1980-81. GM had computer cars, the Atari 2600 had Pong and Frogger, and the IBM PC was introduced. Suddenly fast cars had competition and were not green. From 80s through 90s it was not politically correct to be a gearhead. Muscle cars (gas guzzlers) were cheap. Japanese buzz bombs were de rigueur. Took a few years after the NMSL for HP to come back. This century cars are interesting again.

 

OTOH in the 50s, 60s, and into the 70s American cars were king and there were few imports, mostly from Europe on the right coast where all the people were. Took the fuel crisis (I & II) and the 55mph speed limit to encourage the tiny cars already popular where gas was sold by the liter and much more expensive than here. We also never had a horsepower tax until the Gas Guzzler tax.

 

So really is nothing surprising, kids have a lot more to do than get greasy and are millions and millions more cars now than when the AACA started to dilute the market. Some are even interesting.

 

I do suspect that restomods are here to stay and for the moment are bringing more at auctions than restored cars (and cost less). Frankly I am temped to put the Muncie in my Judge in a big baggie and install a Tremec and do the same with a rack and pinion. The Pontiac 400 will stay but the Rochester will get replaced by either dual AFBs or a Holley FI. Decision, decisions.

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9 hours ago, TerryB said:

I like them!  And if they are under appreciated so much the better for getting it at a decent price and enjoying it and not worrying about resale.  If I was paying $100k then resale would factor in.

I wanted a 1952-1954 Mercury when I was a teenager, but never got one.  After the James Dean movie "Rebel Without a Cause" I thought Mercury was the dream car, but I never got one.  I've always been out of step, mostly because I have loved and still love most 1936-1948 Buicks.  One car I never liked and would never own was the much more popular 1955-1957 Chevrolet.  I remember riding in a carpool to work in a 1957 Chevrolet.  It was one of the most  uncomfortable cars I ever was in................so what can I say?  There is a 1953 Mercury pulling at my heart strings now, but at 81 I need to sell, not buy.  My latest experience with selling a beautiful and very rare 1939 Buick convertible sedan has taught me the folly of buying and selling late in life.  I still have two more pre-War Buicks. The next giveaway will happen when I sell the 1941 Roadmaster when I reach 85 :) .

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11 hours ago, Frantz said:

 Most of us have lost a good bit of money in the hobby. Many of us have or are restoring cars for far more money than they are worth. It doesn't phase us. 

 

The problem is finding THE car one really wants which isn't always (ever?) easy so one has to do whatever it takes to make THE car........well........THE car.

Just getting a car in reasonable enough condition to be a reliable driver can get out of hand but that's the price of having THE car.

 

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If I wasn't so broke as I am, I would want to buy about forty acres of high desert over Nevada way, and bury everything I own in vaults under the sand. Maybe someone a thousand years from now could find it and appreciate it!

 

On the other hand,  if prices can fall enough, I sure would like to get another series 80 Pierce Arrow to enjoy for a few years before I go.

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I think to some degree the market impacts everything.  Bear in mind if Matt is describing broadly the top 2 to 5% of all collector cars that is still a lot of cars, the insulated ones are the top w to 5% of that group.  I have also spoken to owners of desirable Full Classics who are seeing some adjustment.  Its just unrealistic to assume they will appreciate annually forever.

 

Generally, if it was desirable new, i think, it will have some following down the road...

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6 hours ago, cahartley said:

 

The problem is finding THE car one really wants which isn't always (ever?) easy so one has to do whatever it takes to make THE car........well........THE car.

Just getting a car in reasonable enough condition to be a reliable driver can get out of hand but that's the price of having THE car.

 

I can only speak for myself, but for me that's less of a problem. None of them have much personal connection to me. I have a '54 Ford that I got by accident. It's a 4 door. The only things that are a connection to me are it was built in Pennsylvania (my family has been here since colonial times), and it was first titled on my birthday (29 years ahead of me). It's one year out of the early ford motor flathead clubs and the '55 and '56 FoMoCo models are far sportier with more powerful motors. It doesn't matter too much to me. I enjoy working on it just as much as any car I've owned. My first muscle car was a Javelin. I was specifically looking for a '71 or '72. I found a nice '68 and bought it. After owning it, I grew to like it more. So since I'm not picky it's easy for me to love any car I spend time on. There are a few cars I keep my ears to the wind about, but I've not really gone on the hunt at this point.

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Don't forget that we (am retired so in that age group) grew up when fast cars all had manual transmissions (well except Chrysler but they had the Ramchargers) and have been fortunate enough to buy a lot of interesting cars when they were cheap. Frankly the most expensive cars I have bought were family and tow cars.

 

That said I must be odd because my tastes are constantly changing. For years about all I had were V8s. Then 3800 V6s (only one is left but have a complete spare drivetrain) but then also only one V8 car  but have two spare engines and waaay too many wheels and tires, at least four sets of different mags for the Reatta, one original). Of course where I live traffic is often heavy, as soon as I leave my development ain any direction am in a multilane 45. and dates involve about 10 miles at 65-70. This influences the type of car I like.

 

Now have little motivation. If I did the Judge would have a rack and pinion and a 5 or 6 speed manual (have a five speed manual but only good for 300 lb-ft...). Does remind me of why I didn't like the way big cars wallowed in the 60s and you did not steer so much as aim. Other cars do not need anything. Must admit the restomod craze makes perfect sense to me other than the monster meats that are popular, 300 hp is plenty and 70 series tire rides better over speed bumps than 30s.

 

Final note: public parking spaces seem smaller than when I grew up, both the Jeep and the Cad have back up cameras and you need them. And they are both only 15 feet long, had a 67 60 Special that would never fit in most and remember a joke from the '70s that new cars were so wide they needed clearance lights. Have always preferred small cars, remember a FIAT 1500 spyder (predated the 124) that I could powershift instantly. Back then it was said that someone who could really speed shift could "make it sound like an  automatic".

 

Funny thing is how drag cars got too fast for the 1/4 and now many run an 1/8 (660) mile. Powerglides are very popular again.

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About 25 years ago I went to a big estate sale and saw the family selling a bunch of "stuff" left by a major car collector near Buffalo, New York. I came home and threw out a ton of worthless car items I had and decided not to saddle my family with the misguided idea that the toys I bought with discretionary money were anything to be cherished. The thought "Oh! You thought they were worthless, but the are valuable today" probably comes to mind. Maybe, if one thinks selling is just a wave of the hand. Put up an ad and they will beat a path to your door, don't work that way. Selling is hard work and costly. My wife knows who my friends are and she knows if one is truly interested in one of my cars they can have it. They are all paid for and are serving me well, no need for more. I would be ashamed if my toys amounted to a significant part of my estate.

Actually, the only "old" cars I have owned were ones I bought and sold. A long time ago, maybe 1970's I figured out that all old cars were new once. They went through a depreciation cycle and I could buy it at any point. I have old cars but they weren't so old when I bought them. That's how the hobby works for me. And I like it just fine.

 

As to the future of the hobby, for my part anyway, here are hobby tools that came about 10 days ago:

001.thumb.JPG.596f71c733558cff28f672f63c5aa488.JPG002.thumb.JPG.537f880edba6bd76dc7d3f90a5a96759.JPG

OBD2 diagnostic tools and adapters. It applies to all cars built after 1995, 25 years now. A lot of old timers will reject them, old timers younger than I. But I will be around buying up the unfinished projects and making a few bucks to fund my aging more modern cars. And they will become old like the others did.

 

Like my cardiologist said "Plan on 30 more years, just don't expect it". I will enjoy whatever comes along without a care in the world for my hobby legacy. My memories are much better than dragging a bunch of material stuff around and I won't impose it on the kids either.

image.thumb.png.fe1b516f2d5308f832970a0e8e6c9e82.png

 

OBD2

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What about an original 1904 Cadillac that needs a total restoration. It is 95% complete, not running, needs wood replacement, new wheels and tires, etc., etc.. The values have been like a roller coaster, but to the right person, it might be desired project. Some great comments from the previous posts, and I agree with the changing times and lack of interest by some age groups. Being in the early 70's age group I feel very fortunate to have grown up during an era of great change in the automotive industry. Those days may never return, but we can preserve what we had. No offense, but keep them original.

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24 minutes ago, caddyshack said:

What about an original 1904 Cadillac that needs a total restoration. It is 95% complete, not running, needs wood replacement, new wheels and tires, etc., etc.. The values have been like a roller coaster, but to the right person, it might be desired project. Some great comments from the previous posts, and I agree with the changing times and lack of interest by some age groups. Being in the early 70's age group I feel very fortunate to have grown up during an era of great change in the automotive industry. Those days may never return, but we can preserve what we had. No offense, but keep them original.

 

A substantial portion of the value on that car would be predicated on whether it can be authenticated as a real 1904 to make it London-to-Brighton eligible.

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9 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

A substantial portion of the value on that car would be predicated on whether it can be authenticated as a real 1904 to make it London-to-Brighton eligible.

Thanks for the response Matt,

I have the Cadillac Motor Car Company build sheet showing the license number (Selden number) and motor number with a shipping date 6-13-04 to Theo Jonas Dealership in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I looked into the identification process in England, but it was very costly and the auto is not restored and running, so I searched through the U.S. company build sheet verification. 

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Lately as I get crustier when driving in moderate to heavy traffic I'm much preferring to drive my 09 Challenger R/T 6 speed standard than my old 69 Dart 340.

The lack of lane disipline, cell phone use, and general bad driving around me makes modern 4 wheel disc brakes and quick steering a must. When I did get to drive my 60 Cadillac (now sold) it was only a back road cruiser instead of a summer semi- daily driver. Maybe the old age paranoid feelings are getting the best of me.

 When you quit driving them it's time to sell them. A lot of my old car friends have now given up the hobby and I'm just turning 65. Another 10 years I can see it fading away to a very small group.

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Hey I resemble that remark. O'town traffic is so bad it reminds me of the Beltway except the lanes change and disappear randomly. So my daily drivers have either 5 or 6 speed automagics. Do still have two (one 4 and one 5) manuals but just been driving those to shows. Must admit changing a set of tires by hand usually results in pain the next day but seem to be past major bloodletting (Jags usually required a sacrifice to Lucas).

 

So age is not as important as attitude and in Florida they say 70 is the new 50.

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We're dealing with this currently from my in laws aka hoarders / collectors / never-threw-anything-away-not-even-expired-credit-cards. 

 

3000 sf home very full but not quite the type that only has pathways through it; more like some rooms are jammed and just closed off. 

 

But half dozen outbuildings full of tools, equipment, building materials (owned rental properties), collected cars for about 30 years and a lot of everything else. 

 

We've started taking 4'x8' trailers of clothing, bedding household items to the local Salvation  Army.  Fortunately we live in an area where we have free dumping @ the landfill.  Borrowed a friend's 'junking' trailer; essentially a car hauler with sides.  We've filled it 25 TIMES since last fall including 3 trips to the county hazardous waste disposal days to get rid of refrigerators, tires, paint, etc.  Working now to pull out building materials and other items for a Habitat 4 Humanity pick up next week. 

 

We've literally lost A YEAR of our lives cleaning up this sheet and getting the property ready to sell.  What time I did have last winter was spent scanning & shredding lots & lots of our paperwork (warranties, receipts, owner manuals, tax records).  Once this nightmare is over we'll dig into sorting out and reducing some of our projects to a more manageable level. 

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14 hours ago, CarFreak said:

What time I did have last winter was spent scanning & shredding lots & lots of our paperwork (warranties, receipts, owner manuals, tax records). 

 

That shredded paper makes good insulation. Did you save it in some plastic bags to use later?

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On 10/17/2019 at 1:31 PM, trimacar said:

This topic has really been beaten to death on this forum.  Is the market changing?  Yes.  Everything changes.  Do we have to discuss it twice a week?  Oh well...

 

I guess that's the problem with wanting to talk all day about antiques.   The antiques are staying the same, but at least the market is always changing so there is always something to talk about.  :)

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People have been saying that the sky is falling since at least Roman times. The subject changes but the fretting not really all that much. 

 

The hobby will be just fine, it will outlive all of us. 

 

Modern hybrids are within 10 years of being AACA eligible...I think. Never paid too much attention to them. The hobby may look different in the future, but does it look the same now to anybody from when they got into it? No. It doesn't matter how long that was, unless it was in the last year or two, it's different. And you're still here, still in the hobby. 

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Only difference is that the cars I like/want/drive now are different from those I had then. At the same time I have come full circle. The only difference was that in the late '50s there was no American car with a DOHC-6, 4+OD tranny, and four wheel disk brakes. Now it is common.

 

Must admit I do not understand 8, 9, and 10 gear transmissions with the very broad torque bands you get with VVT. Could someone explain ?

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