Sloth

1903 Cleveland Roadster project

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14 hours ago, Sloth said:

Just a question, have the brakes any braking power? I have some serious doubts about the Cleveland brakes.

 

The brakes, (actually one brake) would be fine, if it wasn't for other road users, the majority have no clue about old cars. Where we live in North Norfolk is a holiday area, during the summer months it is a quite dangerous time to take the Crestmobile out on our narrow roads. I have had to resort to using the reversing pedal for emergency braking on a number of occasions. The tiller steering needs concentration to keep the car on the road as there is no self centring. The only brake is a band brake around the crown wheel inside the differential casing.

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Last Tuesday, Anna and I decided that we could go safely to London, no Brexit hassle anymore, just a general election (Anna and I are very fond of London). We got a last minute booking, so Thursday morning off to London, arrived on time at City Airport. Friday we visited Bonhams at New Bond Street, a nice selection of cars and automobilia were for sale. What took our eye? A nice pile of parts of a Locomobile steamer, a bit steep, for it was estimated at €5,600 to € 6,700. Later that day sold for $ 4,800 including all fee's. Well, as I am not into steam I still gave it a thought. Pink glasses on. Would be a nice start for a restoration wouldn't? 😍 Sometimes a wise spouse is a real blessing... 😇. Pink glasses off. We did not attend the sale, instead we got to the British Museum, but, another 10.000 people had the same idea.... so a bit crowded. Anna likes the British Museum very much, she can be roaming there for hours.

Saturday we went to Regent Street. For a number of years now, at the Saturday before the London to Brighton run, there is a nice event. Showing pre-1905 cars and some high end modern sport cars, F1 cars, muscle cars, super fast bikes and so on. Usual, it attracts a lot of people, this year was no exception. About 90 pre-1905 cars attended this years event.

 

1566885561_CarsarrivingatRegentstreet.jpg.3d05be6ede52c5becba71763f8b4434b.jpg

Car arriving at Regent Street

 

11143329_AverywetRegentstreetinthemorning.jpg.0a8729f6a1a1b74a5e97bd2d24afef7b.jpg

Pre-1905 cars, neatly lined-up at a very wet Regent Street

 

Around 10 o clock we stood in the pouring rain, and got very wet. So we went again to the British Museum (very much to Anna's joy). At 1 o clock we went back to Regent Street, very nice weather, sunny and dry.

 

Sunday morning at 6 o clock we went to the start of the Veteran Car Run (London to Brighton Run). They start the run at Hyde Park at 6:56 hr GMT (at the time of sun rise, according to the Royal Greenwich Observatory). Beautiful weather, sunny and dry but a bit cold. We walked to Constitution Hill, there you can see the cars driving through Wellington Arch, setting direction to the Mall. A very good spot, most people stayed at Hyde Park to observe the start, so at Constitution Hill it is not crowded at all. When the cars arrive at Constitution Hill they have a good speed, a wonderful sight to see them passing by.

 

2070602818_UndertheWellingtonmonument.jpg.3a04e267a5310f0be9b7c6d8cb9fda25.jpg

Cars on the entrance of Constitution Hill, with the Wellington Arch at the back ground.

 

After the last cars passed by,  we went by train to Crawly (half way point), arrived at 10:30 hr, here we saw a lot of cars passing by. According to tradition, cars have to stop at Crawly and the chauffeur and his passengers have to take a refreshment of some sort.... After a short time he may continue for the remaining half of the run, including some nice hills...

 

1742101723_LeavingCrawleyforthesecondpartoftherun.jpg.fc3081923df5cd4c72aa8a5332893388.jpg

Cars leaving the checkpoint at Crawly, still very nice weather.

 

2144177711_DickBacCrawley.jpg.c2a43c36eff1bb22ee1a2220123eeb7b.jpg

A friend of us with his Pierce, resuming the run, he arrived save and well at Brighton.

 

I must say, seeing al the nice cars with the nice people, I got a lot of inspiration to finish our Cleveland. Last night I had a discussion with Anna, she thinks it is wise to start with building the body. The reason is, that most of the substantial wood work must be done outside, no way I want wood dust on my metal working machines (had it one time, took me a full week to got the machines clean again). So, this was my report of a very nice, short holiday.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth
Corrected some syntax errors (see edit history)
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What an amazing restoration! It looks like this particular project found the right home. Attention to detail. Replicating missing parts using era technologies.  I look forward to seeing more installments of this saga.

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19 hours ago, Sloth said:

Last Tuesday, Anna and I decided that we could go safely to London, no Brexit hassle anymore, just a general election (Anna and I are very fond of London). We got a last minute booking, so Thursday morning off to London, arrived on time at City Airport. Friday we visited Bonhams at New Bond Street, a nice selection of cars and automobilia were for sale. What took our eye? A nice pile of parts of a Locomobile steamer, a bit steep, for it was estimated at €5,600 to € 6,700. Later that day sold for $ 4,800 including all fee's. Well, as I am not into steam I still gave it a thought. Pink glasses on. Would be a nice start for a restoration wouldn't? 😍 Sometimes a wise spouse is a real blessing... 😇. Pink glasses off. We did not attend the sale, instead we got to the British Museum, but, another 10.000 people had the same idea.... so a bit crowded. Anna likes the British Museum very much, she can be roaming there for hours.

Saturday we went to Regent Street. For a number of years now, at the Saturday before the London to Brighton run, there is a nice event. Showing pre-1905 cars and some high end modern sport cars, F1 cars, muscle cars, super fast bikes and so on. Usual, it attracts a lot of people, this year was no exception. About 90 pre-1905 cars attended this years event.

 

1566885561_CarsarrivingatRegentstreet.jpg.3d05be6ede52c5becba71763f8b4434b.jpg

Car arriving at Regent Street

 

11143329_AverywetRegentstreetinthemorning.jpg.0a8729f6a1a1b74a5e97bd2d24afef7b.jpg

Pre-1905 cars, neatly lined-up at a very wet Regent Street

 

Around 10 o clock we stood in the pouring rain, and got very wet. So we went again to the British Museum (very much to Anna's joy). At 1 o clock we went back to Regent Street, very nice weather, sunny and dry.

 

Sunday morning at 6 o clock we went to the start of the Veteran Car Run (London to Brighton Run). They start the run at Hyde Park at 6:56 hr GMT (at the time of sun rise, according to Royal Greenwich Observatory). Beautiful weather, sunny and dry but a bit cold. We walked to Constitution Hill, there you can see the cars driving underneath the Wellington Arch, setting direction to the Mall. A very good spot, most people staying at Hyde Park to observe the start, so it is not crowded at all at Constitution Hill. When the cars arrive at Constitution Hill they have a good speed, a wonderful sight to see them passing by.

 

2070602818_UndertheWellingtonmonument.jpg.3a04e267a5310f0be9b7c6d8cb9fda25.jpg

Cars on the entrance of Constitution Hill, with the Wellington Arch at the back ground.

 

After the last cars passed by,  we went by train to Crawly (half way point), arrived at 10:30 hr, here we saw a lot of cars passing by. According to tradition, cars have to stop at Crawly and the chauffeur and his passengers have to take a refreshment of some sort.... After a short time he may continue for the remaining half of the run, including some nice hills...

 

1742101723_LeavingCrawleyforthesecondpartoftherun.jpg.fc3081923df5cd4c72aa8a5332893388.jpg

Cars leaving the checkpoint at Crawly, still very nice weather.

 

2144177711_DickBacCrawley.jpg.c2a43c36eff1bb22ee1a2220123eeb7b.jpg

A friend of us with his Pierce, resuming the run, he arrived save and well at Brighton.

 

I must say, seeing al the nice cars with the nice people, I got a lot of inspiration to finish our Cleveland. Last night I had a discussion with Anna, she thinks it is wise to start with building the body. The reason is, that most of the substantial wood work must be done outside, no way I want wood dust on my metal working machines (had it one time, took me a full week to got the machines clean again). So, this was my report of a very nice, short holiday.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Holidays like that Harm, though short are always great because of the break in our normal routine they allow us. What you posted about your need for wood work is why I said I wish I had a separate shop or enclosed room for my metal working machinery. With the 1927’-34’GM cars I work on, there is always wood work and it’s part of the reason people send me their cars, I do the wood work along with everything else. My garage is 30x60 and HD steel trussed flat roofed. I’ve thought about putting a full gambrel roof on it with a 8’ tall knee wall set in 3’ from the edge. This would give me a 24x60x8 clear span workspace which I also thought of separating into wood and upholstery shops. A trap door and gantry crane would allow access from upstairs to downstairs. Might still do it but I’m slowing down on doing cars now that LBHC interiors are closed and good paint shops are far and few between.

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Hello gentlemen, thank you for you thumbs up, it feels good that the blog is being read.

Hello Wayne, thanks, more reports are coming.

Hello Christech, your plans looks promising, separation of shops is a good idea. .I do a lot of work outside, but that depends strongly at the weather (not good today).

Today, I started at 8 o clock with taking measurements of the scuttle (it came with the car). Within 15 minutes, I stood in the pouring rain, that did not improve my mood very much. Looking to the weather fore cast, the rest of the day would be very wet., and right they are, its still raining. I had some doubts if the dimensions of the scuttle where right. After a lot of calculations and very valuable info I got a few years back from Roger Weiss, it is clear, the scuttle is dimensional wrong. Which is a pity, because its nicely made. Whats wrong with the scuttle: rear is to high, front has the wrong angle and is to high, upper deck with the rectangular hole in it is 3 inches to short . So I decided to build a new one. 

 

Scuttle.jpg.36bb9c27de151090bf56dc9fc5a81903.jpg

Scuttle

 

Furthermore, I found some parts of the toneau back. They look usable.... take some dimensions tomorrow.

 

50600887_Toneaupart2.jpg.7e86db95b6480b6840c1d11ba5bde41d.jpg

 

976842716_Toneaupart.jpg.d355e0298a1c7d586b85cf01015763a9.jpg

Toneau part left side.

 

The rest of the day I spend calculating how much ash I would need for building the body, I ordered it at a mill which specializes in rare woods. Ash of a good quality is not a common wood here.

 

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

It looks like you will be lighting into a body building project for sure.  Do you have all of your "scuttle" scale drawings in place?  What is your thinking on the tonneau 1/2 you have.  Is it correct enough for you to use?  What do you have for fenders and irons?

Alan

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On 11/7/2019 at 6:09 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

It looks like you will be lighting into a body building project for sure.  Do you have all of your "scuttle" scale drawings in place?  What is your thinking on the tonneau 1/2 you have.  Is it correct enough for you to use?  What do you have for fenders and irons?

Alan

 

Hello Alan, I have the scuttle (bonnet?) scale drawings in place (with help of Roger Weiss).  Roger told me some years ago that the hatch cover in the scuttle and the fenders are made of steel sheet. I am not sure about the rear door skin. The toneau part?  I am not sure, needs more measurements and calculations. My first impression:  it might be usable... Fenders and irons, I have to make them from scratch, have no fenders and no irons. Last week, at the Veteran Car Run in London, I took some pictures of Cadillac's, remarkable, 4 1903 cars,  3 different types of fenders. This puzzles me a bit. Next week I will start with building the under body (if the ash is delivered on time).

Regards,

Harm

 

PS

I just found an YouTube short movie about a 1903 Packard. Its clear that the toneau half I have is from a Packard. To big for the Cleveland.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv2S8_ZprUQ

 

Edited by Sloth
Added PS about 1903 Packard (see edit history)
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In the early days of the automobile, automobile manufacturers struggled to keep things moving. Most manufacturers used major components from specialty manufacturers. There were a handful of companies that made the front and rear axles for nearly half the makes of cars built. Wheels, bodies, and even fenders were the same way. If an automobile company began to run short of bodies, a secondary company would fill a quick order. They may resemble the major provider, but there would be some differences. A few friends of mine have spent years studying the very early Fords. Many original records still exist, including board of director's notes and orders for components. Changes were made almost continuously. "Official" records often do not agree with the evidence provided by original survivor automobiles, or original era photographs. And these issues are with one of the best recorded automobiles of the early era! Smaller manufacturers often ordered bodies in small numbers (likely twenty or less at a time). Variations between one month and the next was normal. Fenders often varied a lot through a given year. Often, fewer cars had the fenders pictured in the sales brochure than the number of cars with fenders that were different from the brochure.

Since you have one other restored survivor to compare with, you do have a good guide to follow. However, if some detail can't be done exactly the same? Or is found to be slightly different? That may be normal, and it may be correct both ways.

Many (if not most?) tonneau bodies were all wood except for a few metal brackets and bolts and screws. There were some early tonneau bodies that were metal skinned.

 

What I see of your work so far, it is wonderful! I think you should be able to make this automobile as right as is possible.

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When it comes to fenders, it is easy to tell, even from the shape, that some differences exist.  I am speaking of the side profile view.  Harm did your ash come in?

Al

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On 11/8/2019 at 11:19 AM, wayne sheldon said:

In the early days of the automobile, automobile manufacturers struggled to keep things moving. Most manufacturers used major components from specialty manufacturers. There were a handful of companies that made the front and rear axles for nearly half the makes of cars built. Wheels, bodies, and even fenders were the same way. If an automobile company began to run short of bodies, a secondary company would fill a quick order. They may resemble the major provider, but there would be some differences. A few friends of mine have spent years studying the very early Fords. Many original records still exist, including board of director's notes and orders for components. Changes were made almost continuously. "Official" records often do not agree with the evidence provided by original survivor automobiles, or original era photographs. And these issues are with one of the best recorded automobiles of the early era! Smaller manufacturers often ordered bodies in small numbers (likely twenty or less at a time). Variations between one month and the next was normal. Fenders often varied a lot through a given year. Often, fewer cars had the fenders pictured in the sales brochure than the number of cars with fenders that were different from the brochure.

Since you have one other restored survivor to compare with, you do have a good guide to follow. However, if some detail can't be done exactly the same? Or is found to be slightly different? That may be normal, and it may be correct both ways.

Many (if not most?) tonneau bodies were all wood except for a few metal brackets and bolts and screws. There were some early tonneau bodies that were metal skinned.

 

What I see of your work so far, it is wonderful! I think you should be able to make this automobile as right as is possible.

 

Hello Wayne, I have a few editions of the Horseless Age December 1903, and some editions of the Automobile Review September 1904. With your story in mind, I read all the advertisements with a different view. The number of suppliers / manufacturers astounds me. Many chassis suppliers (complete or only the frame). Further ignition, brakes, radiators (coolers) etc, a great many number of them specialized in certain parts. Very interesting information, thank you for putting me on that path. In Europe most car manufacturers made all the parts them-self's, but for carburetors (but even some made the carburetor in house), bolts and nuts. I try to do everything possible, to restore the Cleveland as right as possible. The only drawback: the research is very time consuming. Found some wrong descriptions and wrong pictures of the Cleveland Roadster in the literature.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
typo corrected (see edit history)
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On 11/8/2019 at 3:23 PM, alsfarms said:

When it comes to fenders, it is easy to tell, even from the shape, that some differences exist.  I am speaking of the side profile view.  Harm did your ash come in?

Al

Hello Al,

Yesterday I went to the mill and got what I wanted. Very pleased with the quality of the ash, $ a positive surprise.

 

DSC00641.JPG.6ad614593db1a44339bb6f943ec27461.JPG

Ash under the Cleveland chassis.

 

Started today with building a mock-up of the under body. I did not thrust the drawings I had very much, and right I am. So to morrow some fine tuning is in order.

I expect building the real under body next week.

DSC00642.JPG.70879d4ae386803a99ffc359e606262e.JPG

Rough mock-up of under body.

 

As you know, the ash will be sawn and planed to dimensional right beams and planks, just what I need for that particular peace of wood.

Regards,

Harm

 

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Looking very good! Yes, a rough build out of cheap available materials followed by a proper build with the right materials once you have it looking right is the way to go.

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After the yearly cleaning of the ditches around the farm land, which did not going well ( to much rain, so the heavy equipment got stuck..), herewith a report of the last days. First I started sawing and planing the ash timber.

1753933532_Pileoftimber.jpg.20a5dbf3de944358e4ae8a98c33fe99f.jpg

Small pile of timber, fresh from the mill.

 

Took me one whole day, but on the end I had a fine pile of usable beams and planks.

Friday I started with the lower rear body part,  a lot of wood joints must be made.

 

1776939543_Vrydayeveningresult.jpg.1c920d4dc486b1302a2eaa01363b7ed2.jpg

Friday, after a hard days work, the beginning of a body frame.

 

Saturday, I completed (more or less) both frames -left and right-. This is the part where the tonneau will be seated.

 

2115783868_Satardayveveningresult.jpg.9d700548820ea7ea0b9fdfb23c24cb93.jpg

After a hard days work (Saturday).

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sloth
connections replaced by joints (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, Sloth said:

Friday I started with the lower rear body part,  a lot of wood connections must be made (gentlemen, is this the right wording?).

 

Harm, I am not a woodworker, but I think the word is 'joints', which look excellent in your photo above. Nice work. Mike

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51 minutes ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Harm, I am not a woodworker, but I think the word is 'joints', which look excellent in your photo above. Nice work. Mike

Hello Mike, thanks for your reply, corrected the sentence accordingly.

Regards, Harm

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7 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Harm, I am not a woodworker, but I think the word is 'joints', which look excellent in your photo above. Nice work. Mike

Good tight joinery is the only way to do these cars and actually any quality wood work.

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Hello Harm,

Have you got all of your Ash cut, fit and glues together?  🙂

Al

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12 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Have you got all of your Ash cut, fit and glues together?  🙂

Al

 

Hello Al,

Not quite, progress is a bit slow, but at least some. Making the joints is a lot of work, but measuring to get the body dimensional correct,  takes a lot of time and thinking. Blow I  show some pictures of the body as it is today. Tomorrow should be a nice day to do some sawing and planing outside. Furthermore some steam bending of wooden parts must be done. Have to build a steam box.

 

DSC00653.JPG.63147e72b0edbe60f017f451591fb691.JPG

 

DSC00649.JPG.6266790faec7b9fc8c64ff854a4853fa.JPG

 

DSC00652.JPG.01cf9aa4d997d34cc4963dc4ce13bf53.JPG

 

The body is held together with some small screws, no glue yet. I use Bostik PK75 glue, very good stuff, but when it has set (takes 15 minutes to set and 24 hours to cure to 100% strength), there is no way, to separate the wood parts (a 10 lbs sledgehammer won't work  😇). So I do the fine tuning of the joints just with some small screws, just enough to keep the joints tight. Tomorrow I have also to figure out the dimensions of the front seat. The beam behind the front seat is just a temporary distance keeper, between the left and right side of the body. It belongs on the upper rear (last picture shows it very clear).

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

Edited by Sloth
Corrected syntax error (see edit history)
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Looks very good!  I follow a similar process with glue and screws.  Modern glues are so strong and yet flexible it does change the process just a bit.   Such a lovely shop as well... all that room!!!

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Hello Harm,

Your skill as a wood worker is showing!  What kind of skin are you envisioning to cover the body?

Al

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Hello gentlemen, 

Thanks for the thumbs up and comments. The body will be covered with a 5 /8" marine grade plywood, expensive, but water resistant. We have some shipyards within 10 miles from where I live, they are willing to sell some.

 

Today, was a very productive day. Nice weather, so I started at 8.00 to set up my outdoor wood shop.

 

623514371_Outsidewoodshop.jpg.a783f106e23860ce6526778f38f4846e.jpg

Outdoor wood shop.

 

1974075162_Planerwithcheappotabledustextractor.jpg.2a8ccf02fe475046310ada32ecf5e181.jpg

Portable dust extractor connected at the planer (Shop supervisor keeping an eye on the progress).

 

Managed to saw and plane all the remaining wooden beams and boards to complete the under body of the Cleveland. Two weeks ago I ordered a difficult to make (by me) piece of wood. Its 2 1/2" square and 4 feet long with a large quarter round hollow profile milled in it. (I have not the slightest idea what the correct English word for it is). I need it for the backside of the body where the front seat ends and the deck begins. They promised delivery within 3 days.... still waiting. Also sawed and planed the boards for the front seat and the sides of the hood.

Hollat.jpg.30c7278a39611decf93783fb826d5ebc.jpg

This is the piece with the quarter round hollow  I am waiting for

 

Also waiting for slotted head screws. When every joint is finished correctly, I will replace the Torx head screws by historically correct slotted screws. May be a bit overdone, but I like it. On a side note: its remarkable how fast slotted wood screws are replaced by Torx headed and Philips- or Posidriv headed wood screws. So, it appears to me, that the slotted head screws are not readily available on the market anymore. Took me quite a while to figure out a shop, selling the slotted wood screws (with the right dimensions), not many shops left who sell these.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

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Hello Harm,

 

Were you able to get your quarter round molding OK?  What is your latest development on the body building process?

Al

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Hello Alan,

This evening (just a few minutes ago, local time, its 17:15 hr) I received the quarter round molding. Today I spend with cleaning the shop and started with the lay-out of the side panels. Furthermore I made patterns for the side panels of the hood (scuttle) and patterns for the front seat. Tomorrow, I start the gluing of the under body and fitting the side, front and rear panels.

Regards, Harm

 

To all readers:   Anna and I wish you a very happy Thanksgiving.

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Hello harm,

Thanks for the kind regards shared by Anna and yourself on our Thanksgiving day.  We do have lots to be thankful for!  I will attache a picture that shows our gray Thanksgiving morning here in Utah.  Good luck your body building project.  I enjoyed your thoughts on wood work and glued joints.  I concur.  Post us a picture when you get to the point that you can of your progress.

Regards,

Alan

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