Jump to content

1903 Cleveland Roadster project


Recommended Posts

As the health of the lathe left something to be desired, so did mine. Tuesday morning at 8:00 I went to the dentist for preparation of a crown for a molar, nothing special. Got home at 9:00, and at 12:00 felt not well at all. So went to bed, woke up at 15:00hr with high fever and felt really bad. Long story short at 20:00hr I was put in bed again, but this time at the hospital. Reason for this speedy action: in 2015 I got a biological aorta valve (I suffered from a defective hart valve). The cardiologist at the hospital suspected a beginning endocarditis. In between I was tested for Corona, turned out to be negative. Luckily my condition improved and I was released yesterday, a bit shaky but happy. A cause for the high fever could not be found. This was the third time I was prevented to start making bearings for the Cleveland engine. Mmm, maybe I displeased one of the car Spirits...

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

Really pleased to read that you are back out of hospital. Good fun this getting old! What did you do to upset the dentist?!

Hello Mike,

I have really no idea what I did to upset the dentist. Payed the bills of my last visit on time, did not flirt with the female dental assistants 😉, did not discuss his tariffs, not even mentioned them 😇. Mmm, did not flirt, maybe.....

Regards,

Harm

 

PS

Getting old is nice, being old not so.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Harm,

Good Gosh...you are scaring the "devil" out of me with all this talk of Hospital stay for doing a new crown!  I am half way through that very process.  The final stage to be next week.  Are you up and going at near full speed yet for the youngster you are?  Is the Cleveland on your personal radar yet?  Here is an off the wall question for you.  Do you know of any organization, that has WW1 military "stuff" as the main focus, in the Holland area?  We are firmly done with this garden and fruit year.  Last night we settled at 16 degree F and will be so for a couple more nights then back into the 60's.  On another update....we did a couple of days in marathon pressing apples into fresh apple cider.  My wife kept some fresh cider and bottled the rest for use this winter!   I think we ended up with about 15 gallons. 🙂

I hope this note finds all well with you and Anna.

Regards,

Alan

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2020 at 7:33 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Good Gosh...you are scaring the "devil" out of me with all this talk of Hospital stay for doing a new crown!  I am half way through that very process.  The final stage to be next week.  Are you up and going at near full speed yet for the youngster you are?  Is the Cleveland on your personal radar yet?  Here is an off the wall question for you.  Do you know of any organization, that has WW1 military "stuff" as the main focus, in the Holland area?  We are firmly done with this garden and fruit year.  Last night we settled at 16 degree F and will be so for a couple more nights then back into the 60's.  On another update....we did a couple of days in marathon pressing apples into fresh apple cider.  My wife kept some fresh cider and bottled the rest for use this winter!   I think we ended up with about 15 gallons. 🙂

I hope this note finds all well with you and Anna.

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

Thanks!

Yes I am up and running, but surely not 'full speed'. A bit creaky like my brass cars. The Cleveland is on my personal radar for sure, but first I must repair the lathe. Received the bearings, so when I feel less dizzy, I will take on that chore.

Al, I do not know of any organization in the Netherlands that has WW1 stuff. The Netherlands was a 'neutral' country during WW1, no battles were fought on Dutch soil. At the Western front, most battles were fought on Belgian and French soil. Belgium and France have a lot of WW1 museums and organizations specializing in WW1 history and stuff.

Mmm, apple cider I love it! One of the neighbors sons collected the apples of our threes and is making cider of it.

Alan, do still find some time to work on your Locomobile?

Regards,

Harm

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Friday health improved, so I started repairing the lathe. Completed the repair at Saturday morning. I am happy with the result, less noisy gearbox. 

Saturday morning, after completing the lathe repair, I started with the Cleveland engine line boring setup. My idea is to use the mill for this purpose. The engine just fits at the table of the mill (length wise). As this mill (Elliott U0 with universal table) is heavy and sturdy, I guess, together with some heavy iron to fix the engine and boring bar outer bearing at the table, it will do the job (see picture). For the engine and bearing fixtures I used heavy angle iron. But some milling is necessary, as the angle iron is not flat and not square enough for this purpose. Furthermore I welded some steel plates between the small and large sides of the angle iron to prevent it from vibrating.  For the boring bar I use a piece of 1 1/4 " C45 steel.

 

281531307_Overviewoflineboringsetup.jpg.0aa6b0d70482a0378f43574184c78ff3.jpg

Just an impression of line boring setup. The green bearing is hanging loose, should be fixed at the steel plate on the left.

 

As the engine does not fit under the overarm of the mill, I had to make an auxiliary bearing attachment (the green one on the left). Its a pity that I could not use the overarm bearing fixture for the milling bar. Furthermore,  I have to make a fixture for the near end of the engine. Also that must be fixed on the milling table.

 

1482844022_Backplatereadytomill.jpg.5cf32a22cf2975c994bf163cec0d1be7.jpg

Cylinder fixing plate ready to be milled, to be flat and square with respect to the table.

 

46875938_Millingbackplateinprogress.jpg.577d1679a8ee2699c60e2db2a18d19d4.jpg

Milling in progress.

 

1122619190_Cylinderfixture.jpg.d5ace15c065ee25d335b046fffbe7d71.jpg

Cylinder fixture nearly ready, one of the two holes a bit on the high side....

 

1541368575_Bearingsetupboringbar.thumb.jpg.0d277697f185f1a9d889330ef1e8e8a2.jpg

Boring bar bearing setup detail

 

The whole assembly of steel fixtures is rather heavy (30 lbs), well the more dead weight the better.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

PS

At the last moment, the London to Brighton Run 2020 has been cancelled (due to Corona lockdown). This is only the second cancellation since WW2.  First cancellation 1947 due to petrol rationing.

Edited by Sloth
London to Brighton (see edit history)
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Sloth said:

At the last moment, the London to Brighton Run 2020 has been cancelled (due to Corona lockdown). This is only the second cancellation since WW2.  First cancellation 1947 due to petrol rationing.

 

This did not help the auction of my 1903 Crestmobile at Bonhams Golden Age of Motoring sale! Jane and I are actually rather pleased that it did not sell, it is on it's way back home today.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

This did not help the auction of my 1903 Crestmobile at Bonhams Golden Age of Motoring sale! Jane and I are actually rather pleased that it did not sell, it is on it's way back home today.

Hello Mike,

I attended the Bonhams sale online. For selling the Crestmobile, I think the sale attracted the wrong public at the worst possible period in time. BTW, I was astonished about the "low ball" bid, and hoped your car would not sell. I know it sounds odd, but I am happy for you and Jane that your car did not sell 😄

Best regards,

Harm

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Harm,

I have been quiet and busy for the past while.  Fall farm work before winter, plowing and other needed jobs are now complete.  What is the latest on your Cleveland and the current state of Covid-19 in your area?  I am impressed with your boring bar set-up.

Regards,

Alan

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan,

Good to read that all your farm work is done before winter sets in.

As about 100' of the hedge between our neighbor and us, died last summer (too hot and dry). We will replace the dead shrubbery with new plants.

Not much is going on here. Anna and I are renovating the second floor. Our intention is to have it insulated before it gets to cold to work comfortably at it. As the roof is thatched, reed offers no insulation at all. Today we finished all the dry wall, took a lot more time than we anticipated. One of the problems with these old buildings are, that trying to make corners in rooms at right angles, and have the walls perfectly vertical is nearly impossible. So, a lot of measuring and fitting is needed. But on the end Anna and I are satisfied. Next week we will start, and (hopefully) finish, insulating the ceilings of the rooms.

This afternoon I went a bit further with the line boring set up. Made the fixture for the near end of the engine (pictures tomorrow). I seems that the boring bar and the bearing holes of the engine are not quite at a right angle. Have to look at it, and correct that.

 

At this very moment Anna and me are watching a press conference of our MP about the Covid-19 status. The numbers of Covid-19 infections are slowly deceasing, but are still too high. But most restrictions and measurements will be continued. Many hospitals are overloaded with Covid-19 patients. Operations are suspended, only emergencies are handled. We are hopeful that vaccines will be available first quarter 2021. Test and trace is going  well, our military helped to build very large test centers. But I guess Christmas will be lonely, no family or friends. But we can live with that, keeping healthy is the most important issue at this moment.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Started this morning with scratching a line, length wise on the boring bar (put the boring bar in the lathe an used a sharp turning tool). With this line positioned on top of the boring bar, I have some guide to center the crankshaft bearing holes exactly along the split of the castings (see pictures). This solved my worry that the crankshaft bearing holes are not positioned parallel with the boring bar.

 

1904155188_Crankshaftbearingflywheelside.thumb.jpg.8aae3165d4b0135f1cd80604857826cc.jpg

Crankshaft bearing, flywheel side of the engine.

 

966561864_Crankshaftbearingnokkenaszijde.thumb.jpg.62d9bdf0ade731d051fd73226bc5a86f.jpg

Crankshaft bearing, camshaft side of the engine.

 

Also made the near end fixture, the near end of the engine is fixed and positioned on it.

1005790049_Enginenearendfixture.thumb.jpg.31a8bde219ecc895c6506133271aa873.jpg

Near end engine fixture.

 

Started to complete the "outboard" bearing assembly. Hopefully tomorrow I can assemble al the parts of the line boring setup, and make a dry run. I am anxious to see if there are some vibrations, that's my main worry about this set up. Vibrations during line boring will ruin the quality of the Babbitt bearing surface, which is of course unacceptable. 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth
crooked sentence repaired (see edit history)
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like it...and you are absolutely correct that vibration has to be completely eliminated. I think it will also help to take very small cuts and, based on my experience with the hand powered boring bar, I'd say the speed and feed should be about as slow as you can make it.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday and today, I finalized the line boring setup. It took quite some time to measure all the important dimensions twice, and calculate the deviations and where necessary correct them. At long last I got everything within spec. Off center wobble of the boring bar is less than 0.0008" (I think, not bad at all for using an industrial type bearing block). I tested the whole assembly for vibration, at 47 RPM no vibration at all. At 150 RPM I feel some very light vibration. So the RPM will be set at 47. 

 

The only job left: completing the boring bar, drilling the two holes for the cutter (HSS tool steel), and come up with some form of fine adjustment for the cutter. I plan to drill the holes exactly at the center line and grind the cutter so that the top of the cutter is at the center line again. ( makes measuring and adjustment a lot easier than setting the cutter before or after center, but I am open for comment 😊)

 

 

IMG_0570.jpg.cf1b3fcc971a76a86530b3f63c550e8e.jpg

 

IMG_0572.jpg.afa257a9f639ef95926f96f51c66f984.jpg

 

IMG_0573.jpg.555a71f0cf94e82224f1b687f0fa7ef6.jpg

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Sloth said:

The only job left: completing the boring bar, drilling the two holes for the cutter (HSS tool steel), and come up with some form of fine adjustment for the cutter. I plan to drill the holes exactly at the center line and grind the cutter so that the top of the cutter is at the center line again. ( makes measuring and adjustment a lot easier than setting the cutter before or after center, but I am open for comment 😊)

 

 

47 RPM sounds about right. When I did this I was using a boring bar that was quite a bit smaller so this may not be pertinent but I drilled the hole for the bit off center by about .050. That allowed me to grind its point .050 thicker and still have it come out on the center line as well as giving me more thickness in the bar  for the set screw that locks it in place. I also made the adjusting tool and if you go back through the Mitchell thread you should find it.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The set up looks quite good. On this particular engine, you don’t want anything too tight. We always try for perfection when cutting bearings.....that way we usually achieve excellence. In a one lung machine, it’s very forgiving. With today’s oil, I would build the entire thing on the far side of “loose”. Keeping everything square is important. As is making sure the rod is straight. I don’t know the status of your piston or bore......but in this application mass is probably your friend, and a cast iron piston is probably best. If making a new piston, a modern ring package will increase horsepower, reduce oil consumption, and reduce drag. What are the plans? How about photos of the piston and rod?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2020 at 11:24 PM, edinmass said:

The set up looks quite good. On this particular engine, you don’t want anything too tight. We always try for perfection when cutting bearings.....that way we usually achieve excellence. In a one lung machine, it’s very forgiving. With today’s oil, I would build the entire thing on the far side of “loose”. Keeping everything square is important. As is making sure the rod is straight. I don’t know the status of your piston or bore......but in this application mass is probably your friend, and a cast iron piston is probably best. If making a new piston, a modern ring package will increase horsepower, reduce oil consumption, and reduce drag. What are the plans? How about photos of the piston and rod?

Thanks Ed,

I measured the rod, it seems straight but needs a new bearing (Babbitt-ed shells). No bearing shells came with it. The rod is very heavy, I guess 8 Lbs, length center of piston pin to center of bearing 13 5/8". The piston seems OK, cast iron and also very heavy, I guess 8 Lbs, diameter of piston 4 3/4", length 5". So the reciprocating mass (without the fly wheel) is already a lot. As the piston fits very nicely in the cylinder, I will use it as it is. But I have my doubt about the piston rings, they seem a bit weak.  I will weigh the piston and rod tomorrow.

 

IMG_0574.jpg.09ec4c61361db1adb5ac406a2715ca46.jpg

Piston, connecting rod, piston pin and shims.

 

IMG_0575.jpg.499c85aadfd8044b77c87b43d0f1bb26.jpg

Inside picture of piston

 

IMG_0576.jpg.4efd7353426ea42ca93aaf0e4df929fd.jpg

Piston detail of the piston rings

 

IMG_0577.jpg.1b5dcd4b37a9c3ed7ff263d896e15a22.jpg

Connecting rod.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2020 at 9:58 PM, JV Puleo said:

 

47 RPM sounds about right. When I did this I was using a boring bar that was quite a bit smaller so this may not be pertinent but I drilled the hole for the bit off center by about .050. That allowed me to grind its point .050 thicker and still have it come out on the center line as well as giving me more thickness in the bar  for the set screw that locks it in place. I also made the adjusting tool and if you go back through the Mitchell thread you should find it.

Hello Joe,

Good tip, I will do the same, as there is not much meat for the set screw. Still looking for the adjusting tool, I must admit I started again at page one (read it before), fascinating thread.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll photograph them tomorrow and post them so you don't have to sift through the entire thread. It's so long I'm not sure I could find it. I had to make one for the 3/4" boring bar I made to do the cam shaft and I also fitted a new micrometer head to the adjusting tool that actually goes with the 1-1/4" bar the line boring machine is designed to use... the new micrometer head reads in tenths of a thousandth. What is the diameter of your boring bar?

 

jp

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Harm, if you are making the boring bar, and it is large enough in diameter, the "factory" bar I have has blind holes for the boring bit. A light spring goes under the the bit to press it up against the micrometer face. This is clearly the way to go. I wasn't able to do that with the small bar I made and, while it worked, it was difficult to hold a tolerance smaller than about .002. That wasn't a problem in my case because I was making a bushing to fit the bored hole but in your case I think it might be critical to getting a really precise measurement.

 

Also, I've no idea where you'd get those wide piston rings so if you use the original piston you may have to go with them. Also, oil control rings weren't invented until the early 20s. I think I would try to find an aluminum piston - even if you have to use one from a diesel truck. That will probably be fairly heavy but will allow you to uses modern rings.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a shop in England that makes rings on special order, and have a reputation of doing a good job for reasonable money. Modern ring package would increase horse power, give better ignition burn, and would offer oil control. I must admit as a purist, I would run the factory piston........it will help keep the mosquitos under control!👍

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I'll photograph them tomorrow and post them so you don't have to sift through the entire thread. It's so long I'm not sure I could find it. I had to make one for the 3/4" boring bar I made to do the cam shaft and I also fitted a new micrometer head to the adjusting tool that actually goes with the 1-1/4" bar the line boring machine is designed to use... the new micrometer head reads in tenths of a thousandth. What is the diameter of your boring bar?

 

jp

Hello Joe,

Taking photographs would be very nice of you. The diameter of the boring bar is 1 3/16".

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Today I weighted the piston: 9 Lbs,  connecting rod: 6 Lbs.  Cleaned both thoroughly, both are in remarkable good condition. So I decided to use them as is. Will go after new piston rings, Ed you mentioned a company in England, do you have a name of the company. I googled, but found several companies making piston rings, I must say I prefer the one which you can recommend.

Regards,

Harm

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

For measuring the boring diameter...this is the tool I made. It was awkward to use because for every adjustment the bar had to be withdrawn from the hole and the tool assembled on it. I failed to take a picture of the bottom but there is a hole there. The micrometer head was set to the right depth and it was assembled on the shaft over the bit which was then loosened through one of the side holes and pushed up to meet the face of the micrometer. The set screw that held the bit in place was accesses through the side holes. Because the bar was only 3/4" in diameter, I was not able to use a blind hole with a spring.

 

It was important to clamp the micrometer head in place..I tried a set screw but even with very low pressure it restricted the ability of the micrometer screw to move.

 

IMG_3723.thumb.JPG.46d330f43ed0a6c7061d3d380df20b6c.JPG

 

IMG_3724.thumb.JPG.8e0050d6f8b30d46f7636f873a43a874.JPG

 

IMG_3725.JPG.f6323ba74a44f8a4d7424fa6dc12c2f0.JPG

 

This is the adjustment tool for the 1-1/4" bar. I think you could do something similar...although I didn't know how to make the spring. The micrometer head and holder on the tool is the one I made for the tenths reading micrometer head. The head and holder to the right are the original ones.

 

IMG_3726.thumb.JPG.d6fd41b00c1de1d8ef1e12b7a86d1b05.JPG

 

And yes, I did put a hot set of vice grips on the chair! That was quite a long time ago.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

For measuring the boring diameter...this is the tool I made. It was awkward to use because for every adjustment the bar had to be withdrawn from the hole and the tool assembled on it. I failed to take a picture of the bottom but there is a hole there. The micrometer head was set to the right depth and it was assembled on the shaft over the bit which was then loosened through one of the side holes and pushed up to meet the face of the micrometer. The set screw that held the bit in place was accesses through the side holes. Because the bar was only 3/4" in diameter, I was not able to use a blind hole with a spring.

 

It was important to clamp the micrometer head in place..I tried a set screw but even with very low pressure it restricted the ability of the micrometer screw to move.

 

IMG_3723.thumb.JPG.46d330f43ed0a6c7061d3d380df20b6c.JPG

 

IMG_3724.thumb.JPG.8e0050d6f8b30d46f7636f873a43a874.JPG

 

IMG_3725.JPG.f6323ba74a44f8a4d7424fa6dc12c2f0.JPG

 

This is the adjustment tool for the 1-1/4" bar. I think you could do something similar...although I didn't know how to make the spring. The micrometer head and holder on the tool is the one I made for the tenths reading micrometer head. The head and holder to the right are the original ones.

 

IMG_3726.thumb.JPG.d6fd41b00c1de1d8ef1e12b7a86d1b05.JPG

 

And yes, I did put a hot set of vice grips on the chair! That was quite a long time ago.

Hello Joe,

Thank you very much for the pictures. Clamping the adjustment tool on the boring bar is the way to go. In the past, I Babbitt-ed the bearings of my Flanders. Adjusting the tool bit was a hell of a job. Took ages to get it right. Never thought to clamp the adjusting tool on the boring bar.

Regards,

Harm

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On my Kwick - Way the cutter is set up with a similar set up on a v block. It doesn’t go around the bar, it sites on it and is held in place by hand pressure. Takes a while to get the hang of it. We practiced on several old sets of mains trying to hold 3/10th of an inch on a Pierce nine main bearing engine.........we usually keep all within the 3/10’s. Here is our set up on a Pierce V-12. Next page photo is the machine variable speed drive we made for the bar.......finish cuts are much better than by hand.

BC7CA199-EA65-4E92-A4A1-56A8CB1F711A.png

D7786E41-D91B-4ACE-B78E-AB18C86DB327.png

63BBC384-3DC3-4B5F-9A04-8437546CDCC4.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...