hddennis

Timing Engine

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I feel stupid asking this as I think I already know the answer but I'm having a brain fart chasing a persistent oil leak. I've disassembled the whole front of my Maxwell including the timing cover trying to find the source of the engine's oil leak. I lined up all the timing marks (3) and when I went to pull the distributor was shocked to see rotor pointed to #4 instead of #1. After wrapping my head around this instead of the leak I think it's possible to have the marks line up both in time and again 180 degrees later. Please tell me I'm correct so I can get back to the problem at hand.

 

Howard Dennis

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can you pull the distributor and turn it 180?

Edited by JACK M (see edit history)

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Actually,  the distributor has an adjustable drive but I didn't want to disturb that as this was a running engine.

 

Howard Dennis

100_8087.jpg

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It looks like one of the timing marks out of timing. Double check.

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26 minutes ago, trini said:

It looks like one of the timing marks out of timing. Double check.

All 3 of the factory punch circles are lined up with each other and this all happened on an engine that ran fine before I tore it down to find the oil leak.

These pictures are of my spare engine but show exactly how mine looks.

 

Howard Dennis

100_4399.JPG

100_4400.JPG

Edited by hddennis (see edit history)

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try moving the middle one a 180 degrees. That might be the one operating the cam. 

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Have you considered just moving the plug wires to suit proper firing order, if as you say you're 180 out, just swap the wires  from  1 to 4 etc.

 

Reading your  problem again, were you in fact at TDC #4 instead of TDC #1 when you viewed those timing marks, remember the cam turns  at 1/2 crank speed 

Edited by hchris
Add words (see edit history)

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My question was can the timing marks on the gears line up twice? Once on compression stroke and once on exhaust stroke. Why would I change anything on a motor that runs perfectly? If I took all these suggestions I do know it would not start again.

 

Howard Dennis

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4 hours ago, hddennis said:

My question was can the timing marks on the gears line up twice? Once on compression stroke and once on exhaust stroke. Why would I change anything on a motor that runs perfectly? If I took all these suggestions I do know it would not start again.

 

Howard Dennis

 

 Really paying attention , weren't they?

 

  Ben

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Hope this doesn't sound stupid... Can your distributor cap be turned 180*? I'v had caps that someone in the past has cut another key notch to fit 180 out... Just a thought

 

Frank

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Sorry Ben, your cog for the timing  is 360 degrees out of phase. Turn it around once more time and line up the dot and that will put your rotor to # 1 plug.

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Put the number 1 piston on top stroke with the # I piston valves closed. If they are not closed turn the timing cog until valves are closed (both intake and exhaust) closed and the dots aligned That will put the rotor pointer to number one plug and the engine ready to fire on # 1 cylinder. The rest will follow..

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The timing gear marks can be different set points for different manufacturers. Most Manufacturers of 4 cylinder engines haver it designed that when the gear marks line up the valves on cylinder #1 are on overlap at TDC. so at this point if you are putting the distributor in on a 4 cylinder engine you would set the rotor to point to number 4 since this cylinder is on the TDC of the compression / power stroke. Other manufacturers made the engine marks line up when the valves are on overlap on #4 cylinder ( on a 4 cylinder engine) so on this type the rotor on the distributor would be set to point to #1 cylinder when installing it since 1 is on the compression / power stroke.

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Ltc4748, thanks for responding. So what I found on my previously running engine with the marks aligned and rotor pointed at #4 was perfectly normal for this engine?

 

Howard Dennis 

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If I understand Dennis , what he said the engine was running before with the pointer on the # 1 cylinder. What he did in between he did not say. If he had removed  the timing gears hoping that  by  reinstalling them  back just by aligning the marks it is quite possible he aligned the dot for  piston #4. To get it to # 1 he must rotate the cog one more time and line the dot . The cam shaft rotates at half the crankshaft rotation   There are 2 solutions, neither of which I will recommend . rearranging the wires and/or rearranging the distributor drive gear.

In my previous thread I stated to turn the cog 180 degrees. It should be 360 degrees. with # 1 piston on compression stroke and the valves slightly overlapping. The camshaft position in relation to the piston rules the roost.

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18 minutes ago, trini said:

If I understand Dennis , what he said the engine was running before with the pointer on the # 1 cylinder. What he did in between he did not say. If he had removed  the timing gears hoping that  by  reinstalling them  back just by aligning the marks it is quite possible he aligned the dot for  piston #4. To get it to # 1 he must rotate the cog one more time and line the dot . The cam shaft rotates at half the crankshaft rotation   There are 2 solutions, neither of which I will recommend . rearranging the wires and/or rearranging the distributor drive gear.

In my previous thread I stated to turn the cog 180 degrees. It should be 360 degrees. with # 1 piston on compression stroke and the valves slightly overlapping. The camshaft position in relation to the piston rules the roost.

I'm going to try to explain what I'm seeking here again. In trying to solve an oil leak I took my running car apart and in that process I lined up all 3 of the factory timing marks and when I went to take the distributor off the engine I expected to find the rotor pointing to #1 and NOT to #4 as I found it. I have NOT checked valve positions in either cylinder but posted my question asking if it's possible to have the timing marks to line up twice as in once on compression stroke and also on the exhaust stroke which is what I believe Ltc4748 was discussing in his post. I appreciate the help posted here but have no intention of altering how my engine is reassembled as it ran perfectly in the present configuration.

 

Howard Dennis

Edited by hddennis (see edit history)

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If that works for you happy motoring. Coming back to your original question. Is the oil seeping through the bolts threads or the gaskets ? If through the bolts I had a similar situation where coolant was seeping through the threads of the bolts on my 28 Dodge Brothers Senior 6 water jacket.I was able to get  special washers with a rubber lining on the inside diameter. My problem was solved. I might still have some left over 1/4 inch in size  If you like I can send them to you no charge. They are available in many sizes. 

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2 hours ago, trini said:

If that works for you happy motoring. Coming back to your original question. Is the oil seeping through the bolts threads or the gaskets ? If through the bolts I had a similar situation where coolant was seeping through the threads of the bolts on my 28 Dodge Brothers Senior 6 water jacket.I was able to get  special washers with a rubber lining on the inside diameter. My problem was solved. I might still have some left over 1/4 inch in size  If you like I can send them to you no charge. They are available in many sizes. 

I put silicone on all the bolts and gaskets when I did this 6 months ago but still have oil leakage from somewhere? I did this recent teardown hoping to replace the gasket between the back half of the timing cover and the block but now find someone back in the 1960's must have Permatexed that joint and it is basically welded together now, so I'm going to re-clean everything, reseal with silicone again and have a machine shop put a modern seal in the front cover in place of the original slinger which seems to be letting some oil get on the pulley, I really appreciate the washer offer but my bolts are 5/16 and it appeared the bolts were all dry from the last assembly so I'll just repeat that method.

 

Howard Dennis

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If the bolts thread protrudes in the oil it is possible the oil was seeping between the threads when hot. May be that is the reason why the previous owner put silicone and also to stick the gasket. So you are on track by getting a machinist to get a new type seal on the cover. That will take care between the seal and cover but what about between the seal lip and crankshaft ? You will carefully have to choose a seal of particular size.  In my working days at a trucking company I bought  regular  seals that came with a Seedy Sleeve.used on worn out shafts.  Rawhide seals lip does rotate on shaft but seals between the two halves. One part inside the other.   . I worked with gaskets that the manufacturer says "use no sealer" as they were self sealing.  My bolt seals are 3/16. My apology. It is there for you anytime.

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Hello Dennis, yes that is correct for the engine if the timing marks line up with #1 cylinder on TDC and the valves on #1 are both open slightly, known as valve overlap, then the distributor would be installed with the rotor pointing to the #4 plug wire

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Trini is absolutely correct. Turn it over one more time. #1 and #4 are companion cylinders.

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