Avgas in a Dodge

[Mpgp1999]

I have access to 100ll leaded gasoline for my dodge. Besides that it costs less then premium gasoline. It cost 4.75 San Francisco Bay Area. Is there any benefits in regards with storage and lubricity. 

[Pete in PA]

A friend of mine back in HS used to put that stuff in his 69 Chevelle SS 396.  Of course that was an 11:1 cr "built" engine that really benefited from it.
AFAIK (and I'm far from an expert) the only benefit you'd get would be the lead providing valve seat cushioning.  Oh, probably also the benefit of having no ethanol added but you can also get that benefit by carefully choosing your filling station (at least in PA you can).
The high octane rating will be totally lost on your engine since it has such a low cr.  Kind of like giving a wino a $1000 bottle of wine.  Pointless...
And there's also the fact that avgas doesn't have a road tax applied so getting caught doing what you're thinking about would probably get you a big fine.  Same as the risk the lifted diesel 4x4 truck guys take when they put dyed home heating oil in their trucks.  Cheaper fuel until you get busted.  Then expensive fuel.
Just my .02

[Matt Harwood]

What year Dodge? Many 6-volt cars have trouble lighting high-octane gas and often don't run as well as they do with the cheap stuff. For example, the owner's manual for my 1941 Buick says to use 72 octane for best results. Even my 1993 Mustang 5.0 runs noticeably better on 89 than on 93. High-octane can be tough to light with those 6-volt electrical systems and low-compression engines. Avoiding ethanol is often good, but I don't really think avgas is a solution unless you're just going to use it for storage purposes and even then you might have trouble with it running correctly and if you're using avgas, you won't blame the gas. It can introduce a whole different set of variables to your engine if and when it starts to act up. As long as you keep the fuel moving through the car on a regular basis, I don't see much harm in regular unleaded in old cars. I have 110 old cars sitting here at any given moment and they've all got pump gas in them, nothing special. They all typically start and run, and if they don't, the most common issue is a stuck float which is easy enough to cure. Don't bother with premium, either--there's nothing in premium that's not in regular beyond a higher octane rating. It doesn't make more power, it doesn't clean the engine, and it isn't a special treat for the engine now and then. If your compression is less than 10:1, you probably don't need it.

 

Avgas is an expensive solution to a problem that isn't really a problem.

[ArticiferTom]

May want to check local marina . Some have non-ethanol in pump with lower octane .   

[Spinneyhill]

Higher octane fuel burns more slowly than lower octane fuel. You will find the exhaust side of the engine gets quite a bit hotter - it is may even be still burning as it goes into the exhaust. You may even have valve trouble.

 

Your car was made for, what, 53 octane? Or maybe 63 octane? Use the lowest octane you can find.

[StillOutThere]

There are a number of restoration shops and museum collections using Avgas in their restorations because it will not evaporate like all the modern ethanol.  Maintains its characteristics for up to two years compared to pump gas beginning to deteriorate after 2 weeks.    And some auto repair shops will use it too - a local shop told me he does and explained how to get it at the airport.   The antique guys find no problem whatsoever in their low compression early engines.

 

It is indeed 100LL today meaning "low lead"  and there is minimum benefit from there being this little lead... but some.   Years ago, Avgas had much more lead - no more.   Under US law, you can not run Avgas on the street because it does not include your state or federal road taxes.   Avgas burns very clean, it is very pure, your car will start every time, your carburetor will love it,  it will not destroy any rubber hoses or diaphrams or carb parts.     100LL is rated as 100 octane "at altitude" so in reality it is somewhere around 95 octane at your ground level, depending on where you live. 

 

Fair amount of bother for me to get into my small regional airport and buy 100LL (credit card at their pump, must bring container, must enter the tail number of a prop plane) and they have gates.   But I do it when I need to and find it totally worthwhile and have never experienced any down side.

 

Try it.   I think you will really like it.

 

[Mpgp1999]

My car is original 12v. Made December of 25. As for the octane I have heard of people using kerosene 1:4 or diesel. 

[Mpgp1999]

I recently rebuilt my vacuum tank and now the fuel evaporated from the carb and vacuum tank in a day or so. In the past I have gone a month or two and there would still be some gas in the vacuum tank. The connections are tight and I see no signs of leaking fuel. 

Thats why I have a can of fuel to prime the carb. That extra fuel is avgas. The tank currently has 91 maybe with some marvel mystery oil. Since I am next to an airport I just walk over there with a jerry can and fill it at 4.75. For 100ll

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mpgp1999 (see edit history)

[Mpgp1999]

For the issue of road taxes. Couldn’t I keep track of the non taxed fuel that I used and pay the taxes at the end of the year. Is there any lawyers out there? I don’t see kerosene for sale with road taxes 

 

avgas is taxed federally and by california. I should not have any legal issues when using it on the road  To my knowledge clear kerosene is taxed and dyed is not. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mpgp1999 (see edit history)

[JACK M]

8 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

For the issue of road taxes.

 

You are paying the road tax every time you mow the lawn or go for a boat ride.

Kinds offsets itself.

If and when I winterize I use 120 leaded race gas. Easy to find in most areas, just not at a gas station or airport.

As for evaporation, I keep one of those metal squirt cans full of gasoline with pressure over it. VERY handy.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Liberty-Spot-Sprayer-Pressurized-Spray-Can-Steel-Red-1-qt-32oz/123815854893?hash=item1cd400032d&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyex5%2F5IBesqWURBxPsBx%2FTFyfde0VhS1ArmaoJQ8B9Vg%2FUHdH3sHIhYEGGgXkgTGo%2Baw3uMO%2FvjCvMy1ETzZLjVRft70Eoq4ejzEpAuuHH4Aozldfjks4h%2B7i5tqi3xHR4pjz%2FSO607oaL2zbPIL2MvMWe3erAWaM0LG6D39QxisTEY%2BwaWjzzIekHQo%2F88e4uVrAKbP0kkAwojmCMho%2B4JXYCWq%2BRws8E18ZszPKh43I1f%2BE1JIButODq6ny0n86FqsqUWlZOeYezq%2F2zzb5fBJnCHjY8ghAihLIt3XinAa9lCUpqXlqdtxVZsrkJXIWT5BOJmLaOi19vGQylYyWBwrTNNvQjC0h7o%2FoQ8iAhpFlvVogi9%2BySDm3OrUeim3J0%2BzFu8MbdBvxCIzWjoQDZDG2GDgTjb8dvOQTTIbIE2rbbwoWd5v3PFjWJ268oUwUfMxLzCkk8I%2B01n0qP5WzNYzW6JUmHwr5apL9Bi26e1HhXp9aWEw1vTMGAx4t%2BOV3ynqxu8bA3LGPo19ejIoq1xK%2BW9CB4mWW60G5nSsYg0uRxtg6iLxyNJdgZUEtf40%2B3rIrLRRtqFexxxNnIdfRRljv3UKbnfMDqzLOooA6H5u%2BnE3aMgJLyM7m07Dc9f1Gg%2FQ8gK0KUEFwfzyQ5jowLBX0XH5r9BvOKFaR8DD7KwUSbJNuXewUmIYlx6cGkwJWQ3Ery2DJj6Gi5scpVXIHB6HJ4BcbuKfk9n3qZr5zE6B4Ya5D%2FTJhmsh38HrVfrgBIvH3OJuGQdE8H%2BgNsba0GoqqlRisA7cfqqSqdF9Ym6%2B6HiVkO37JpwhVzndU6leRAkTq1OSFRyrUdqk80i1C8pw%2F8xuirpR9Q%2B1qv0jjd%2FMwO97xGbR0peY7nXFSO4e%2BBMl6JNw7bUfjg7m6l%2FD58tLRvZ153NHaXJX%2B5bZFV9OhO7Qa4wvkut4CJarJsKK3ejCE%2FQ%2BbytrNPtyoHFalocneejSv29ErYTOQBmtk2jFcZZvWbi%2FusLQ9iAUjUELk1g&checksum=1238158548932bcd69a8963b4c63b370390662f4be8b

[JACK M]

WOW !! that is one long link address.

[Mpgp1999]

Many taxpayers may be overlooking the refund or credit available under IRC § 6421 for federal excise taxes paid for motor fuels and similar state provisions. The taxes are on fuels used to power vehicles and equipment on roads and highways. Taxes paid for fuel to power vehicles and equipment used off-road may qualify for the refund or credit. This includes farm equipment and certain boats, trains and airplanes.

 

https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2011/mar/20103438.html

[C Carl]

23 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Higher octane fuel burns more slowly than lower octane fuel. You will find the exhaust side of the engine gets quite a bit hotter - it is may even be still burning as it goes into the exhaust. You may even have valve trouble.

 

Your car was made for, what, 53 octane? Or maybe 63 octane? Use the lowest octane you can find.

 

Flame front propagation rate is a good analogy for the process. But it is not precisely accurate. 

 

Octane in the mid-'20s was in the mid 40s. 

 

I have a very important medical appointment. Must run. In the meantime, I will just reach into the grab bag and throw a little pulp at the wall. If it sticks, browse it in my absence. I need to establish my credibility before I distill this down. I spend quite some time on this issue.    -    Carl 

 

 

[Mpgp1999]

58 minutes ago, C Carl said:

 

Flame front propagation rate is a good analogy for the process. But it is not precisely accurate. 

 

Octane in the mid-'20s was in the mid 40s. 

 

I have a very important medical appointment. Must run. In the meantime, I will just reach into the grab bag and throw a little pulp at the wall. If it sticks, browse it in my absence. I need to establish my credibility before I distill this down. I spend quite some time on this issue.    -    Carl 

 

 

This is very interesting. What is this book. 

[C Carl]

 A spare moment which gives an opportunity to the benefit of all. I will be back to clarify, but no matter what your background may be, you will derive something from all of this. Perhaps some of you could have written this, to others it is quite new. Most of us, myself included, will find ourselves somewhere in between. More :

 

 

 

 

[C Carl]

Sure. The first book is : "Marks' Mechanical Engineers Handbook, 2nd edition, 1924". 

The first book of my second posting is : "Marks', 3rd edition, 1930".

All the rest come from a couple of the annual editions of : "Merck Index" from the late '50s, and the '60s.

 

For you, Mathew, I would recommend "Matks', 3rd". Fascinating read to understand aspects of the sophistication of engineering of the period. I am sure you know how to shop far better than I. Please let me know what these are selling for now. A "Merck Index" should be relatively inexpensive. I used to pick them up from University of Washington surplus. Could run from 50 cents to a buck or so. Let me see if I can find a page from the period I have referenced, which may be very automotive. Please standby.   -  Cadillac Carl 

[Mpgp1999]

Octane in the 20s about 45octane? Ron mon or Ron+mon/2. What issues can occur with high octane in a low compression engine. My motor is about 50-55 psi. 

[Mpgp1999]

I was able to find the 2nd edition online for under 35 with shipping. 

[MikeC5]

As far as the lead goes, I think it's safe to say that the Dodge engines from 1914 through 1925 (at least) were not designed with the assumption that leaded fuel would help lubricate the valve contact surfaces.  Leaded fuel wasn't introduced until the early 20's although I can't seem to dig up a more specific date.  As for ethanol in fuel, my '25 seems to run fine on it (summer blend 87 octane) and I've never had any vapor lock problems on hot days in traffic (granted CT isn't the best climate to test this).  I also find that if I don't start the engine for 2 - 3 weeks, there is still enough fuel remaining in vacuum tank to start the car (I do shut the valve at vacuum tank fuel outlet between uses).  On the other hand, I've never driven the car with ethanol-free gas for comparison.

Edited October 10, 2019 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[walt evans]

On 10/7/2019 at 1:55 PM, Mpgp1999 said:

I have access to 100ll leaded gasoline for my dodge. Besides that it costs less then premium gasoline. It cost 4.75 San Francisco Bay Area. Is there any benefits in regards with storage and lubricity. 

I've been flying with it for years. Last plane had an A65 Continental. Compression ratio was about 6. The Dodge is about 4. The good thing is AVgas doesn't have the crap in it. Put some auto gas in a saucer and Avgas in another. tomorrow the auto gas is gone, and the Avgas is still there.  Very stable. Also the Dodge was made for the lead to jube the valve guides, modern auto gas has none. 100LL(Low lead) does. the main reason for higher octane is so the fuel doesn't pre-ignite under the higher pressures of modern engines. The Dodge doesn't have that.  Bottom line, Avgas a lot better for the Dodge than modern auto gas.

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, walt evans said:

Also the Dodge was made for the lead to jube the valve guides,

No Sir. Tetraethyl lead was introduced in the '20s as an anti-knock additive. It was found to be a suitable cheap additive by GM laboratories in 1921. It "acts by controlling the combustion or burning rate of the petrol when in the cylinders of the engine. In other words, it prevents undue rises of pressure over small crank angle movements - that is, when the piston is at, or about, top dead centre. Thus, spontaneous ignition of any part of the petrol-air charge is avoided..." from the Service Station and Motor Mechanics' Manual, by George George, 1940. It became available on 1 Feb 1923. Increases in compression ratios followed!

 

It was noticed in the early days of its use that it had a harmful effect upon the combustion chambers, pistons and valves of engines, due to the deposition of metallic lead. After considerable research, "ethyl fluid" was modified to be 61.69% TEL, 26.88% ethylene dibromide, 7.55% ethylene dichloride, 2.82% kerosene to dissolve 0.12% dye, plus some impurities. This was in 1940 of course. The kerosene had a slight lubricating effect too.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

On 10/11/2019 at 12:00 PM, MikeC5 said:

I think it's safe to say that the Dodge engines from 1914 through 1925 (at least) were not designed with the assumption that leaded fuel would help lubricate the valve contact surfaces.

It is safe to say that NO ENGINES were designed assuming tetraethyl lead (TEL) would have any effect on valve lubrication. That is a myth. TEL was purely and only an anti-knock additive.

 

It was noticed, after ethylene dibromide and ethylene dichloride were added, that the carbon deposits in the combustion chamber are less than without "ethyl" being added. The carbon may be slightly harder than without "ethyl". In the cooler parts of the chamber, they are greyish in colour, while in the  hotter parts, such as the exhaust valves, they are reddish, but are easily brushed off with a stiff wire brush.

[MikeC5]

Are you sure about that?  My own experience with a pre-unleaded gas engine was a '65 Plymouth Valiant with 225 slant 6.  I had done a valve job on the engine in '79 or so and did not install hardened valve seats.  I drove the car for another 80,000 miles when it began running poorly.  Plugs, points and carb rebuild didn't help much.  It turned out the valve clearances had closed up (solid lifters).  I finally pulled the head to find severe valve seat recession.  I thought this was due to running unleaded gas.  I also found out that these engines had induction hardened valve seats starting in 1972, which I assumed was in anticipation of mandated use of un-leaded fuel in the US.

 

This explains how I remember it...  https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/20751-valve-seat-recession-explained/

 

I'm not a chemist or chemical engineer so I could be wrong... (just ask my wife)

 

[fraso]

For what extra av-gas or lead additive will cost you, you'll likely be better off running the lowest-cost pump gasoline until valve recession becomes an issue and then doing a valve job with hardened seats.

[Spinneyhill]

37 minutes ago, MikeC5 said:

Are you sure about that?

My reading is that valve seat recession started in some engines after unleaded gas came into use. The octane boost of "ethel" prevented pre-ignition. When it was removed, the octane of fuel was reduced and flame front speed increased. This is what was hard on the valve seats.

 

As for a layer of lead, addition of ethylene dibromide and ethylene dichloride prevented the layer of lead being deposited - it was a serious problem before those chemicals were introduced. The byproducts, which come out in the exhaust, lead chloride and lead bromide, are highly toxic.

 

This is what wikipedia says about it, with references:

"Valve wear preventative

It is a common misconception that 'Tetraethyllead works as a buffer against microwelds forming between the hot exhaust valves and their seats.^[14]' Once these valves reopen, the microwelds pull apart and leave the valves with a rough surface that would abrade the seats, leading to valve recession. When lead began to be phased out of motor fuel, the automotive industry began specifying hardened valve seats and upgraded exhaust valve materials to prevent valve recession without lead.^[15]

Microwelding of the exhaust valve and valve seat is now thought to have occurred due to the increase of flame front speed when the switch to unleaded came about. The increased combustion pressures caused 'micro welding' in older style motors that had the valve seats machined into the cast iron head. Retarding the timing of the engines reduced the combustion pressures and proved to be an effective short term measure in the switch to unleaded fuel. The long term solution was hardened steel valve seats.^[16] "

[MikeC5]

Interesting.  It seems I forgot the adage "correlation does not imply causation" .   

 

 

 

Are you sure about that?  My own experience with a pre-unleaded gas engine was a '65 Plymouth Valiant with 225 slant 6.  I had done a valve job on the engine in '79 or so and did not install hardened valve seats.  I drove the car for another 80,000 miles when it began running poorly.  Plugs, points and carb rebuild didn't help much.  It turned out the valve clearances had closed up (solid lifters).  I finally pulled the head to find severe valve seat recession.  I thought this was due to running unleaded gas.  I also found out that these engines had induction hardened valve seats starting in 1972, which I assumed was in anticipation of mandated use of un-leaded fuel in the US.

 

This explains how I remember it...  https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/20751-valve-seat-recession-explained/

 

I'm not a chemist or chemical engineer so I could be wrong... (just ask my wife)

 

[Spinneyhill]

22 minutes ago, MikeC5 said:

Are you sure about that?

Yes!  Here is a paragraph from the wikipedia entry on John J. Mooney (the bold bit is mine):

 

" As President of the Environmental and Energy Technology and Policy Institute, Mooney has worked with the Partnership for Clean Fuels and Vehicles of the United Nations Environment Programme to help end the use of leaded gasoline throughout the world. As of 2002, there were 51 countries in Sub-Saharan Africa in which leaded gasoline was still in use.^[6] By responding to issues of valve seat recession, and showing that lead in gasoline did not help solve the problem, Mooney was part of an effort that had 50 of these 51 countries in Africa ban leaded gasoline by the end of 2006.^[1][7] "

 

Here is the report of the PARTNERSHIP FOR CLEAN FUELS AND VEHICLES, VALVE SEAT RECESSION WORKING GROUP:

https://archive.epa.gov/international/air/web/pdf/vsr-finaldraft.pdf

Edited November 4, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

I was just reading some of the Confidential Information pages on the DBC site. In May of 1932 the DK-8 head switched to a high compression version of 6.2 ratio. This required high octane fuel of 72 octane. I guess all things are relative. 

[RAH]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:22 PM, Spinneyhill said:

My reading is that valve seat recession started in some engines after unleaded gas came into use. The octane boost of "ethel" prevented pre-ignition. When it was removed, the octane of fuel was reduced and flame front speed increased. This is what was hard on the valve seats.

 

As for a layer of lead, addition of ethylene dibromide and ethylene dichloride prevented the layer of lead being deposited - it was a serious problem before those chemicals were introduced. The byproducts, which come out in the exhaust, lead chloride and lead bromide, are highly toxic.

 

This is what wikipedia says about it, with references:

"Valve wear preventative

It is a common misconception that 'Tetraethyllead works as a buffer against microwelds forming between the hot exhaust valves and their seats.^[14]' Once these valves reopen, the microwelds pull apart and leave the valves with a rough surface that would abrade the seats, leading to valve recession. When lead began to be phased out of motor fuel, the automotive industry began specifying hardened valve seats and upgraded exhaust valve materials to prevent valve recession without lead.^[15]

Microwelding of the exhaust valve and valve seat is now thought to have occurred due to the increase of flame front speed when the switch to unleaded came about. The increased combustion pressures caused 'micro welding' in older style motors that had the valve seats machined into the cast iron head. Retarding the timing of the engines reduced the combustion pressures and proved to be an effective short term measure in the switch to unleaded fuel. The long term solution was hardened steel valve seats.^[16] "

 

Guys, For crying out loud , Back 80 - 90 years ago when our 4 cyl engines were fairly new Bloody Kerosene was the basic fuel available for use! Lead wasn't even added to modern fuels 'till the 50s with high compression V8s. So why would anyone wish to up the octane from the lowest grade gasoline at the pump whose modern content is a mixture  (a significant portion of which is Ethanol!) to our tanks?? Don't overthink a perceived problem!  

[Spinneyhill]

5 minutes ago, RAH said:

Lead wasn't even added to modern fuels 'till the 50s

You sure about this? It was available for use in fuel in the 1920s and was advertised as Ethyl Gasoline by 1930.

[RAH]

4 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

You sure about this? It was available for use in fuel in the 1920s and was advertised as Ethyl Gasoline by 1930.

I was NOT aware of LEAD being added that early especially to automotive fuels.' Ethyl' is basically alcohol not lead.  Was this 'ETHYL" additive one of those complex mixtures like tetra-ethyl lead? Is it possible that fuels down under may have been different from in the US? I cannot conceive of a logical reason in the 20s for that complex mixture to have been available for the average consumer with lo compression engines. Perhaps it was intended for those in the racing set rather than the average model T type consumers.?  But I admit do not know everything and am always interested in adding to my collective data stream Thanks..

[Bloo]

39 minutes ago, RAH said:

I was NOT aware of LEAD being added that early especially to automotive fuels.' Ethyl' is basically alcohol not lead.  Was this 'ETHYL" additive one of those complex mixtures like tetra-ethyl lead? Is it possible that fuels down under may have been different from in the US? I cannot conceive of a logical reason in the 20s for that complex mixture to have been available for the average consumer with lo compression engines. Perhaps it was intended for those in the racing set rather than the average model T type consumers.?  But I admit do not know everything and am always interested in adding to my collective data stream Thanks..

 

Ethyl, when referring to Gasoline, is Lead, not Alcohol. It refers to Tetraethyl Lead. I believe Ethyl was a trademark belonging to someone, maybe Tidewater Oil (Tydol/Veedol). Others had Tetraethyl leaded gas available, Gilmore for instance. I'm not sure when it became available, but long before the horsepower race of the 50s. Gilmore was absorbed into Socony/Mobil in about 1940.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

14 hours ago, RAH said:

I was NOT aware of LEAD being added that early especially to automotive fuels.' Ethyl' is basically alcohol not lead.  Was this 'ETHYL" additive one of those complex mixtures like tetra-ethyl lead? Is it possible that fuels down under may have been different from in the US? I cannot conceive of a logical reason in the 20s for that complex mixture to have been available for the average consumer with lo compression engines. Perhaps it was intended for those in the racing set rather than the average model T type consumers.?  But I admit do not know everything and am always interested in adding to my collective data stream Thanks..

Have a look at my posts of 3 and 4 November on page 1 of this topic. TEL was purely and only an antiknock additive. Increases in compression ratio followed.

 

Our fuel was similar to yours I think.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[RAH]

O.K., I concede and have been corrected once again. It seems I have made  two mistakes this year and the second was to admit to the first. HA!

 

[RAH]

9 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Have a look at my posts of 3 and 4 November on page 1 of this topic. TEL was purely on only an antiknock additive. Increases in compression ratio followed.

 

Our fuel was similar to yours I think.

Good Grief it seems like life is getting way too  complicated these days. Now apparently we need a Chemical Engineers degree  just to decide what fuel to use in our old cars. To say 'I am not impressed' would be an understatement. But y'all do continue to edify us in the intricacies of life at the gas pump!  We all need to learn at least one thing new each day to continue to grow. Thanks!

[RAH]

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:55 AM, Mpgp1999 said:

I have access to 100ll leaded gasoline for my dodge. Besides that it costs less then premium gasoline. It cost 4.75 San Francisco Bay Area. Is there any benefits in regards with storage and lubricity. 

Guys, I have been attempting an anatomy of this simple question and a simple answer to "Avgas In My Dodge?" That answer would be 'NO" plain and simple. 

     Then it took 5 irrelevant pseudo answers before an important part of the question was forthcoming from the original questioner specifically referring to a '12V 4 cyl. 1925 Dodge Brothers'. Then the discussion devolved into a discussion of Taxes . Then on to a more complex discussion of fuel compounds from the beginning of time to somewhere today. Unfortunately those specific chemical compounds in our fuel today should be of interest only to the Engineers who are charged with the production and distribution of that magic fluid to facilitate the mobility of our cars.

     Nowhere on any pump have I seen a composite list of components other than the percentage of Ethanol. Those  other chemical compounds are only referred to by the brands pet names like "Techrolene" or whatever.

     Then an abrupt diversion to attempt to unlock those specific Chemical Compounds and their reason for existing, again from the beginning of time. At which point these could be considered TMI.

     As an aside when I was  pup growing up in Pa. my dad drove a fuel tanker for 'Cities Service' from a refinery to local stations. He frequently commentated on the various tankers from brands like 'Shell, Cities Service, Texaco, Standard Oil, etc. and after filling up their fuel tank from a common ginormous tank they would pull over and get on top, open a hatch, and dump in a small container of their specific "Compound" sometimes to color their fuel. I believe these were those 'Chemical Compounds' referred to in this extensive series of questions and answers. AND we still do not know what specific compounds are in each brand of fuel!

     There are more important things in life to worry about than standing at a pump, scratching our heads and wondering what is in the fuel at our favorite brand, which unfortunately there is nothing we can do about. 

     So, continue to 'filler up' and use whatever fuel your car prefers and have fun driving!

[Mpgp1999]

On 11/12/2019 at 12:56 PM, RAH said:

Guys, I have been attempting an anatomy of this simple question and a simple answer to "Avgas In My Dodge?" That answer would be 'NO" plain and simple. 

     Then it took 5 irrelevant pseudo answers before an important part of the question was forthcoming from the original questioner specifically referring to a '12V 4 cyl. 1925 Dodge Brothers'. Then the discussion devolved into a discussion of Taxes . Then on to a more complex discussion of fuel compounds from the beginning of time to somewhere today. Unfortunately those specific chemical compounds in our fuel today should be of interest only to the Engineers who are charged with the production and distribution of that magic fluid to facilitate the mobility of our cars.

     Nowhere on any pump have I seen a composite list of components other than the percentage of Ethanol. Those  other chemical compounds are only referred to by the brands pet names like "Techrolene" or whatever.

     Then an abrupt diversion to attempt to unlock those specific Chemical Compounds and their reason for existing, again from the beginning of time. At which point these could be considered TMI.

     As an aside when I was  pup growing up in Pa. my dad drove a fuel tanker for 'Cities Service' from a refinery to local stations. He frequently commentated on the various tankers from brands like 'Shell, Cities Service, Texaco, Standard Oil, etc. and after filling up their fuel tank from a common ginormous tank they would pull over and get on top, open a hatch, and dump in a small container of their specific "Compound" sometimes to color their fuel. I believe these were those 'Chemical Compounds' referred to in this extensive series of questions and answers. AND we still do not know what specific compounds are in each brand of fuel!

     There are more important things in life to worry about than standing at a pump, scratching our heads and wondering what is in the fuel at our favorite brand, which unfortunately there is nothing we can do about. 

     So, continue to 'filler up' and use whatever fuel your car prefers and have fun driving!

That’s what I love about this site. I got more information that I ever wanted. I hope it never changes. From this post I purchased an antique mechanical engineering textbook to learn more about fuels. I even contacted the local sheriffs department to find out about the legality and taxes involved when using avgas. 

 

 About the modern fuels

 

I have been trying to pick a major. I am a sophomore in college  pursuing  a business degree. I am looking into degrees in automotive restoration  museum/ curatorial studies mechanical engineering and petroleum engineering.  I got the chance to speak to somebody from Shell. He told me that I was asking way too many questions. He said  Oil company are constantly in arms with auto manufacturers and vise versa.  Auto manufacturers want to oil companies to make better fuel for the cars and the oil companies want the auto manufacturers to make better cars to run in their fuels. Most if not all fueles come from a base fuel then companies add additives. They generally have no concern for older vehicles especially pre emission vehicles. The petroleum engineer said he thinks they will become illegal to drive and only museums can but/make fuel. With government regulations manufactures of autos and fuel are trying to stretch miles per gallon.  When a company advertises fuel it is for their high grade fuel. It costs much more then their low grade even though it does not cost much more to produce. The reason is to cover their overhead costs. We all know the harmfulness of ethanol in fuel but is is here to stay. Companies will not say what additives are in their fuel because they are concerned about starting an “additive war”. Brand A has 10% more PEA then brand B etc...  

 

That “cheap” off brand fuel station near you is most likely the same fuel and the one across the street. However there may be water contamination, much higher ethanol content or they may not give you a full gallon. Here in California there is an agency that comes around and weighs and measures things then puts their stamp of approval on it. There is a station near me that has been cited 7 times for not dispensing the right amount of fuel. Yes they are still open for business. My advice (opinion incoming) is use fuel from a reputable station. Government regulations require some additives in all fuel. Perform your own tests. Buy 5 gallons and fill a 5 gallon container. Make sure it is full to the line. (Use a 5 gallon container because of the pump is off it is harder to see the difference with a smaller container). You can test the water/ethanol content at home. 

 

I hope I had enough to add to this topic. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Mpgp1999 (see edit history)

[Mpgp1999]

Avgas dropped to 3.75 and I was out of fuel. I decided to fill the dodge up. I fill the tank up once a year (except when I go to a  national meet). Since the stuff has no junk like ethanol it stores pretty well. I changed the oil and I will do oil samples. I also compared the msds for avgas and pump has. Most major brands have them posted in their website. Then I referenced the cas numbers. If anyone is interested I can post the msds and cas info.   

[StillOutThere]

9 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

Avgas dropped to 3.75 and I was out of fuel. I decided to fill the dodge up. I fill the tank up once a year (except when I go to a  national meet). Since the stuff has no junk like ethanol it stores pretty well. I changed the oil and I will do oil samples. I also compared the msds for avgas and pump has. Most major brands have them posted in their website. Then I referenced the cas numbers. If anyone is interested I can post the msds and cas info.   

 

YES, please post your findings!  Thanks.

 

Any comments on the "Top Tier" rating of gasolines.   I try to only purchase Top Tier fuel.   Locally for me (central TX) that means Shell and Valero.

Edited April 4, 2020 by StillOutThere
Add. (see edit history)

[Mpgp1999]

http://www.aviation-fuel.com/pdfs/MSDS_for_AvGas_100LL_from_P66_dated_3-04-13.pdf

 

https://www.valero.com/en-us/Documents/OSHA_GHS_SDS/SDS%20US%20-%20002-GHS%20UNLEADED%20GASOLINE%20Rev1%205-14.pdf

 

here are some msds. One if for avgas the other for pump automotive gas.