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Marvel TD-2-S carburetor questions- 31 Buick 8-66S


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This is for someone who has good knowledge of the Marvel TD-2-S 2 barrel updraft carburetor used on 1931 Buick 60 series cars. 

 

My car has a carefully restored sound heat riser that is adjusted correctly and has good leak free tubes and nice tight throttle shaft pivots.  With the heat control in the off position you can put your bare hand on the outer exhaust transfer pipe and the riser body is cool even after running for 15 minutes.  I had trouble with flooding.  I built an exact replica of the original cork float except the material is balsa which has slightly better flotation performance.  It is thoroughly sealed with fuel proof butyrate model airplane dope and has excellent flotation.   But even though I carefully ruled out float bind or interference or with the bowl cover or fuel saturation I continued to have flooding incidents that included having raw fuel discharge from the bowl vent while the engine is running.  I finally removed the float valve and seat and looked at the 2 parts with my watch making magnifiers and found 2 defects.  1:  The interior wall of the seat that the needle valve inserts into was coated with gray corrosion which I polished off with Happich Simi-chrome polish and some Q-tips to avoid removing metal.  I also observed wear marks on the 4 sharp corners of the needle valve and very carefully filed those down just flush with the wear marks.  When I started I could cause the float needle valve to drag or stick as I inserted the needle valve into the seat tube with slight side pressure.  After correcting the defects the needle slides smoothly with no drag or sticking with light side pressure applied to the needle valve.  I installed the float valve back in the carburetor and the flooding has been eliminated.

 

Valve lash is set to 0.010", 0.002" to the loose side so if the head gasket settles a bit no valve clearance falls to less than the minimum 0.008".

 

The distributor was restored completely and has new points, condenser, rotor cap and wires and plugs are fresh.  Full advance timing was set carefully with a volt ohm meter to 11 degrees BTDC for cylinder #1 and synchronized to fire cylinder #6 11 degrees BTDC at the "Syn 6" mark on the flywheel. 

 

The fuel source is 94 octane methanol free fuel in a clean outboard tank.  It delivers fuel to the inlet side of the original AC fuel pump.  There is absolutely no debris in the float bowl of the carburetor. 

 

The Marvel Carburetor manual describes adjustment for this carburetor as a process of setting the air control valve knob correctly.  It suggests setting the air control knob even with the end of the ratchet spring as a starting point.  Then it says to put the heat control in full on position and start the car.  After a brief warmup it says to adjust the air control knob for a smooth idle.  After the engine finishes warming up it says to retard the spark, idle the engine, turn the air screw out until the engine hesitates, too lean.  Then it says turn the air screw back in 3-4 notches at a time until the engine runs smoothly.  To verify the adjustment it says to open the throttle a small amount and let it snap back to idle.  If it stalls it's too lean.  If it rolls it's too rich.  If it continues to idle smoothly you are done. 

 

I did all the steps as the Marvel carburetor book describes EXCEPT I did not retard the spark.  Not sure why yo would set the carburetor all up to run with the spark retarded when it will never otherwise be run with the spark retarded.  After I got a nice idle I tried opening the throttle and letting it snap back.  I found if I revved the engine a bit it would spit back thru the carburetor. 

 

Then I tried setting the air valve knob richer a few clicks at a time until I eliminated the carburetor sneezing under engine acceleration.  While the car still idles acceptably it is obviously too rich at idle, I get black soot out the tail pipe at idle.   

 

How can I lean the idle mixture while maintaining rich enough mixture to prevent carburetor backfire?

 

 

The restored heat system on the bench

HR 043.JPG

 

An really good dimensional copy of the original cork float was made of balsa, sealed with butyrate fuel proof dope.  This picture shows it in a float bowl full of fuel.

 

Carburetor 011.jpg

 

Red areas on this marked drawing show where the wear points are on the needle valve.  Areas above the wear points were dressed down even with the wear

marks to eliminate the step.  This combined with polishing the inside of the seat tube eliminated a pesky flooding problem.

 

Carburetor 001_LI (3).jpg

 

This is a picture of the air control knob set to a mixture that is just rich enough to avoid carburetor backfire when opening the throttle.

 

20191001_132227.jpg

 

This shot of the tail pipe was taken after the carburetor was adjusted to eliminate carburetor backfire and after the engine idled.  It is a sooty black indication of a too rich mixture. 

 

20191001_160823.jpg

Edited by Str8-8-Dave
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There are many other threads addressing the updraft Marvel carbs.

 

You need to block off the heat controls and disable the  operating linkage.  That mechanism was for the gas of the 30's that needed heat to help vaporize the low octane fuel.  The system can only cause problems and not help anything.

 

The purpose of retarding the timing advance is to reduce the manifold vacuum while making the carb adjustments.  

I would NOT trust a wood float!!!  Get a piece of the nitrile material and fashion a float from it.  Set the float level so the fuel level is about 1/16" below the top of the idle jet.

You need to make sure the diecast mounting blocks and plates that the are operated by the air valve spring fit the venturi  as explained in previous threads.

Finally try adding more spark advance than factory specs.  With the more volatile fuels they run much better with additional advance.  I gradually advance the spark advance and take a test run. then pull a plug and look for a nice toast color.  If it's sooty black add some more and try again.

 

Bob Engle

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Bob;   Thanks for your response to my questions about Marvel tuning.  You made quite a few points in your post, some of which I found useful and some I respectfully disagree with.  Again, this is meant to be a RESPECTFUL response, please don't take it any other way, these are just my opinions and the reasons I hold them.  I value your input and appreciate that you took the time to comment.

 

On the topic of just blocking off the heat riser system:  

I'm not going to just block off my system after spending a lot of time doing an authentic restoration.  I believe my system works correctly, it doesn't leak exhaust or vacuum.  Every last piece of the linkage is accounted for and adjusted so it works properly.  In the heat off position you can lay your hand on the exhaust pipe that connects the manifold damper to the riser body after the engine runs long enough to open the radiator front shutters and the riser casting is cool until engine compartment heat takes over.  I absolutely agree with your point that this system can cause trouble if it leaks but I actually think it helps these engines run better at low engine speeds because it keeps fuel from condensing out of the fuel air mixture in the lengthy plumbing from carburetor to combustion chamber.  In warm weather it probably doesn't contribute anything when running down the road at 35mph or better.   For me, 80 percent of it's value is it's authentic portrayal of what the designers intended and since it works correctly it may contribute some value in making the car run well, especially at low engine rpm.  It's interesting to note that manifold heating systems are still in use today for emissions and low speed drivability.  It's also noteworthy piston engine aircraft use carburetor heat with manual control to this day to prevent carburetor icing and many small aircraft still use Marvel carburetor and heat control systems. 

 

Your statement on retarding the spark:  I hadn't thought of that but it's probably a convenient way of reducing engine vacuum and rpm, therefore manifold velocity and if you can get a setting that will run fairly well under that condition the mixture will probably be quite well adjusted for normal spark advance and timing.  Trying to adjust idle mixture at very low rpm is also probably why the 1931 Specifications and Adjustments manual and the marvel Carburetor and Heat Control as used on 1931 Buick both state the heat should be in the full on position while making the adjustment.  The lower the manifold velocity the more chance for fuel to condense out of the fuel air mixture. 

 

About the wood float:  I consulted with Jon, AKA Carbking of The Carburetor Shop on material selection for my float.  He told me not to try to make a reproduction of my cork original from cork available today because most of it is recycled by gluing cork bits back together and he stated emphatically "That stuff doesn't float" and then suggested use of balsa.  So I looked up flotation properties of virgin cork, not recycled cork, and balsa and balsa actually floats better than the cork stuff does.  What I did was make a dimensionally correct reproduction of the original cork float from a piece of solid balsa, then sealed it before assembly with 3 coats of butyrate dope which is hot fuel proof, not affected by gasoline, alcohol or nitromethane, then drilled the mounting hole for the float arm screw and coated the screw with dope, assembled it, then brushed the areas where the mounting hardware is exposed with more dope.   Then I tested it's flotation and it's clearance to the float bowl casting carefully.  I did have a flooding issue, first with the original float, then again with the balsa float but that turned out to be a light film of corrosion on the interior wall of the float valve seat.  Since that has been cleaned off and polished there is no flooding.  I can run the car in the garage with the float bowl cover removed and that float is always up and there is no fuel leakage.  The only commercially available replacement float available for 31 Buick is sold by Bob's Automobilia and it is made of nitrophyl plastic.  I had really bad experience with floats made of that material in 1969 when my then brand new 1969  Pontiac Ram Air IV GTO coupe caught fire shortly after being started in my garage.  That car had about 11,000 miles on it at the time and if I had the car back today in the condition it was in just before it burned it might auction at Barrett/Jackson for around $250,000.00.  The car had the original GM 4MV Quadrajet carburetor on it when it burned.  My insurance company repaired the car and paid for everything except the Quadrajet carburetor which they deemed was the cause of the fire.  I recovered the carburetor and took it apart and tested the float and it sank in a coffee can of gasoline.  I had another one of those floats fail in the car before I got rid of it but was fortunate enough to not have it catch fire again.  I exited the freeway on a cold winter day and it tried to stall on me and I smelled fuel so I held the brakes with one foot and kept the throttle open enough to keep if from stalling until I got where I was going.  I checked that float in gasoline and it sank so I replaced it which fixed the problem until I sold the car.  Later I learned the nitrophyl material was not closed cell and it relied on an applied coating to prevent fuel saturation which apparently was prone to failure. 

 

The info you provided about float level and venturi valve fitment:  That was good information and I intend to verify both items.    Classic and Exotic Service in Troy, MI sells a reproduction venturi valve.

 

Your last point about advancing timing might be useful but I'm going to proceed with caution.  I'm not convinced that retarded timing causes black sooty plugs for one thing , that's more likely a fuel air mixture issue.  Simply advancing the timing without knowing how much total timing advance the engine sees is risky to it's health.  I'm also curious about your conclusion that old low octane fuel is less volatile than modern higher octane fuel when I know for a fact the higher the octane rating the higher the flash point temperature of the fuel and the slower the flame propagation.  High octane fuels were developed to prevent detonation or preignition  in high compression engines.  The 31 Buick engines were all around 4-5 to 1 compression ratios and today's gas lawnmowers have higher compression than that.   A bigger concern for modern higher octane fuels in our low compression engines is completing the combustion cycle before the exhaust valve opens to avoid burned exhaust valves and high exhaust temperatures due to fuel still burning after the exhaust valve opens.  I try to run only ethanol free fuel and as far as I can tell the ethanol free stuff is only available in 94 or 95 octane which is if anything, too high octane for our low compression engines, the flame propagation rate is low and it is clearly aimed at higher compression engines   According to the 1931 Buick specifications and Adjustments manual my 60 series engine is allowed a maximum of 34 degrees total timing advance at 3,000 rpm.  That was a fairly good total advance specification for passenger car engines right up to the 1980s after which cars all had knock sensors and engine control modules that can think and make adjustments a lot faster than I can.  Buick didn't put any more timing marks on flywheels than necessary to accomplish correct initial timing and point synchronization in the dual point distributor supplied.  For 60 series you get an 11 degree BTDC mark for cylinder #1 and a synchronizing mark for cylinder 6 90 degrees later on the flywheel.  I won't try to put much more than the specified total of 34 degrees advance in the car.  The problem then becomes how to time to 34 degrees total advance without a timing mark at 34 degrees BTDC.  There's no room to put a degree wheel on the front of the crank.  Instead I figured out to closely calculate the 34 degree point on the flywheel using the teeth count on the starter ring gear.  Conveniently the specs and adjustment manual states my 60 series ring gear has 123 teeth.  So if I divide 360 degrees by 123 I get just under 2.9 degree tooth spacing.  If I then subtract the 11 degree initial timing from the 34 degree total timing I'm targeting I need to move the flywheel ahead another 23 degrees or about 8 ring gear teeth.  So I can then start from the cylinder one 11 degree mark  and advance the flywheel  8 teeth and I should be very close to 34 degrees BTDC.   Having positioned the engine at 34 degrees BTDC and working with an already synchronized dual point distributor I can time for 34 degrees BTDC statically by holding the centrifugal advance mechanism in the fully advanced position and rotating the distributor to get the primary point  to just break.  This might be a safer way to see how much more timing advance can be safely put into the engine.

 

Thanks again for your input...

Dave

Edited by Str8-8-Dave
Corrected ethanol free octane ratings in last paragraph (see edit history)
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On 10/12/2019 at 12:50 PM, Str8-8-Dave said:

the ethanol free stuff is only available in 84 or 85 octane which is if anything, too high octane for our low compression engines, the flame propagation rate is low and it is clearly aimed at higher compression engines   According to the 1931 Buick specifications and Adjustments manual my 60 series engine is allowed a maximum of 34 degrees total timing advance at 3,000 rpm.

Dave,

     Although your reasoning seems sound, I question why you use the original Buick specs for use with modern fuels that you believe are not meant for your car.  You might consider why Buick designed the fuel system to pre-heat the gasolines of the time.   You might try the vacuum gage method to tune your engine rather than rely on the original manual with modern gasolines.

 

"In most cases if you use a quality large faced Vacuum gauge, with some experience you can effectively tune your car's fuel and timing systems. Tuning with the engine running compensates for wear in the timing gear and valve train, and therefore providing better results than with the manufacturers recommended settings."

 

https://fordsix.com/ci/Vacuum.html

 

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  • 9 months later...
Posted (edited)

This is a long after-the-post update:

 

I'm still holding out on my Marvel Heat Control System which is fully functional built on the foundation of a healthy heat riser.  That said, one area that I keyed in on that really made sense to me was float level, or more correctly float closed fuel bowl level.  I took the big Marvel TD-2 off the car, disassembled the base plate inspected it for possible fuel leaks at the jet attachment points and found all were tight on a good looking die cast base plate and all had good fiber sealing washers in place.  Then I measured from the top lip of the bowl casting to the tip of the idle jet, 1/2".  I reassembled and reinstalled the carburetor with no modifications and pumped the bowl full of fuel and measured right at 1/2" so according to the desired 1/16" below jet height the float level of my balsa float was just a bit high.  I added 1/8" to the bottom of the float, then re-formed the forward edge of the newly added balsa to get some clearance for the float valve to open sufficiently to flow enough fuel to keep the engine happy at road speed.  After carefully re-sealing the balsa float I started the car for the first time this summer, it's been sitting idle since November when I fogged it with Sta-Bil storage oil.  It started immediately producing a cloud of blue smoke momentarily while it cleared out the fogging oil.  It idled much better without doing much to it and what is now coming out of the rubber exhaust hose onto the sidewalk no longer leave a big black soot mark.  Today I ran it again and after getting it thoroughly heated up adjusted the mixture control out or leaner and go most of the exhaust rumble to go away and achieving the fastest idle speed at the smallest throttle opening.

 

Thanks for the input on the float level- that was at least part of getting this car to really run good.  

 

I'm not done, I will now find out what the total advance number is presently and see if there is room for me to advance the timing a bit without violating the 34 degree maximum total advance suggested by Buick.  If there is room to play I will be a playing.

 

Dave 

 

The original complaint- it's too rich!  Santa would never climb into that chimney...

Carburetor 013.jpg

 

The marvelous Marvel jet farm- All correct numbers, all have gaskets, all are tight on the base plate.

Carburetor 015.jpg

 

The camera angle makes this look like the top of the low speed jet is 9/64 below the bowl casting lip but it eyeballed right at 1/2".

Carburetor 016.jpg

 

After re-assembly of the carburetor I found the fuel level was right at the 1/2" depth below the top of the bowl casting lip.  I added

a 1/8" thick piece of balsa sheet to the bottom of my float which sounds like too much but not shown here I had to trim the leading edge of the added

balsa off on an angle to get enough float travel to prevent fuel starvation on the road. 

Carburetor 019.jpg

 

Carburetor 020.jpg

Edited by Str8-8-Dave
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"... I'm also curious about your conclusion that old low octane fuel is less volatile than modern higher octane fuel when I know for a fact the higher the octane rating the higher the flash point temperature of the fuel and the slower the flame propagation.  High octane fuels were developed to prevent detonation or preignition  in high compression engines.  The 31 Buick engines were all around 4-5 to 1 compression ratios and today's gas lawnmowers have higher compression than that.   A bigger concern for modern higher octane fuels in our low compression engines is completing the combustion cycle before the exhaust valve opens to avoid burned exhaust valves and high exhaust temperatures due to fuel still burning after the exhaust valve opens.  I try to run only ethanol free fuel and as far as I can tell the ethanol free stuff is only available in 84 or 85 octane which is if anything, too high octane for our low compression engines, the flame propagation rate is low and it is clearly aimed at higher compression engines ..."

 

What puzzles me is, given what you state above, why you are using 94 octane gas? Why not use just 87 octane ethanol-free?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, 1967 - 1997 Riviera said:

What puzzles me is, given what you state above, why you are using 94 octane gas? Why not use just 87 octane ethanol-free?

 

I'd love to if I could find some.  It would be another step in the right direction.  All the mapping services i have found on the internet for ethanol free fuels are 94 octane stuff.  I won't go back to unleaded with ethanol, the condensate produced by that stuff will destroy my original heat riser setup in an instant.  By the way it looks like I fat-fingered the octane ratings in the quoted post, the commonly available stuff, at least around here, is 94-95 octane, not 84-85, 84-85 without ethanol would be even better.

Edited by Str8-8-Dave
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Well- Now I'm glad Riviera asked about the lower octane stuff.  I found 89 octane ethanol free unleaded at the Marathon station in Port Huron.  I'm gonna try it.

 

Dave

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The gasoline in the late 20's was not the same quality as the fuel sold in the teens.  That is why Your engine and other marques (including the lowly Ford Model T) devised systems to heat the fuel up to help it to vaporize and run properly.  The gasoline back then was not much better than kerosene. actually kerosene was blended into gasoline until the early 30's and the octane rating was between 40-60 octane!   Now manufactures work to cool the fuel, not heat it.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/13/2019 at 5:39 PM, Robert Engle said:

I'll be anxious to hear how your method works out. We all are continually looking for ways to keep these cars in peak operating condition.

Bob Engle

 

Hi Bob;  This is an old thread now but I finally did get around to investigating some of the suggestions you and Mark Shaw set me and to both a hearty thank-you for putting up with me. 

 

I'm just now getting to the carburetor adjustments and the spark timing adjustments.  If you look above this post a couple you will see I addressed the carburetor and found some big improvement by measuring the low speed jet height and attempting to adjust the float to keep the fuel level in the bowl 1/16" below the top of the low speed jet so fuel isn't being forced out of the low speed jet just due to high fuel level.  That helped a lot.  The car idles much better and the black sooty exhaust is gone.  I still hear a bit of rumble in the exhaust and suspect the combustion cycle is not completing before the exhaust valve opens causing the rumble in the pipe.  The ethanol free Shell gas I was running is 94 octane which is probably too high, making the flame propagation too slow with the Buick's astronomically high 4.5-1 compression ratio.  I found some Marathon ethanol free stuff that is 89 octane, a 5 point move in the right direction.  I will run the car on that and see if the rumble goes away.

 

On the timing front most cars with mechanical distributors ran a maximum of 34-36 degrees total advance which would be the 11 degree initial advance plus 23-25 degrees centrifugal advance.  That was done to prevent spark knock under all load conditions.  Today's modern cars with their computerized ignition commonly run 50 degree total advance when loads are light.   They have knock sensors constantly giving feedback to the ignition computer to keep the timing advanced as much as possible without encountering spark knock, something our old cars just don't have.    

 

Today's fun in the garage was determining how much total advance is in my car's distributor to see if there was any room to advance the timing safely.  There's no way to get a timing wheel on the front of the engine and I don't own a smart timing light so I did this the old fashioned way.  The starter ring gear on the car has 123 teeth around it's 360 degree circumference.  That works out to about 2.9 degrees per tooth.  I took the distributor cap off the car, disconnected coil and condenser and connected a Fluke digital ohm meter across the points circuit.  I then rotated the engine to bring the distributor rotor around to a position close to #1 cylinder firing position but far enough before to allow me to rotate the rotor to the full centrifugal advance position and hold it there while I rotated the engine 1 ring gear tooth at a time until the #1 stationary point set just opened while holding the centrifugal advance in the full advance position.  I marked the tooth on the ring gear with layout die, then continued to rotate the engine 1 tooth at a time until I had the #1 cylinder 11 degree BTDC mark centered in the bell housing timing opening.  That occurred exactly 11 teeth after the full advance point opening for #1 or just under 32 degrees after the full advance point opening.  So if you just added 11 degree initial and 32 degree centrifugal advance numbers we would be at 43 degrees maximum total advance.  That's a pretty good load of advance.  This method is probably not perfect because any gear lash between the distributor gear and the cam gear that drives it would have contributed to the total and that's not real because ordinarialy the distributor is driven by the cam on the other side of the teeth.  But lets just say there is 5 degrees difference I still wind up with 38 degrees total advance.  I'm going to be very careful about adding any more by bumping the initial timing based on what I learned today.   I'm hoping the lower octane fuel I just bought will do the trick without adding any more timing advance.

 

Best regards-

 

Dave 

 

 

 

 

The number one stationary points are closed in this picture. 

Dist86111 032.jpg

 

I had a rotor in place and held the mechanical advance in the full advance position and rotated the engine one tooth at a time until

the points broke to fire #1 cylinder. 

Dist86111 033.jpg

 

After establishing the full advance trigger point for #1 cylinder I had to rotate the flywheel another 11 teeth to get to the 11 degree

initial advance position on the flywheel.

Dist86111 029.jpg

Edited by Str8-8-Dave
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While you have found the max range of advance, you do not know what is happening under running condition.  The springs could be weak and going to full advance very quickly, or the springs and fly weights may not allow full advance.  I like to take my distributor to a shop with a Sun machine where everything can be set precisely and the advance curve can be checked against rpms.  I also like to set distributor advance  with a vacuum gauge while the car is running.

 

I also am looking forward to Dean Tryon's experiments with jet sizing against with modern fuels.  The viscosity of gas being different must affect the amount of fuel delivered.

 

bob Engle

 

  

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3 hours ago, Robert Engle said:

While you have found the max range of advance, you do not know what is happening under running condition.  The springs could be weak and going to full advance very quickly, or the springs and fly weights may not allow full advance.  I like to take my distributor to a shop with a Sun machine where everything can be set precisely and the advance curve can be checked against rpms.  I also like to set distributor advance  with a vacuum gauge while the car is running.

 

I agree- this is simply static crude testing, no curve information intended.  I will tell you this, I had this distributor completely apart and the advance mechanism is operating correctly, no binding or sticking and no excessive play in any part of the mechanical advance.  Still wouldn't know what the springs are doing.  I could get a fair idea what they are doing with a timing light and a tach.  The flywheel could be marked off to do that.  But the basic idea was to find out if I dare advance the initial timing.  I'm sticking to my guns on that, the springs appear to be original, they are quite light.  If anything the advance may be coming in early but as long as the springs can't hold the weights back at 3000rpm where the Spec's and Adjustments book says I should be at 30-34 degrees all in. 

 

Setting the advance with a vacuum gauge?  Are you suggesting setting initial advance that way while the car idles?  Obviously the idle vacuum will rise until you reach a point where rpm no longer rises at fixed idle throttle.  I'm sure if I put a vacuum gauge on my car to set the initial advance I can get higher readings by exceeding the 11 degrees specified by Buick but then I would likely exceed the desired total advance.   You could also get higher vacuum readings by exceeding 34 degree timing at 3,000 rpm where the timing is supposed to be all in but that could be too much advance under heavy road load, exactly why Buick settled on 34 degrees max.  My idea of what to use a vacuum gauge for is setting fuel mixture and troubleshooting.  I never heard of using a vacuum gauge reading for setting timing. 

 

I'd be interested in Dean Tryon's experiments as well.  How could I access his testing?

 

Thanks Bob

 

Dave

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Are you located in Canada finding 94 octane?

 

Remember, the octane ratings scales used in Canada differ from those in the USA.

 

The posted Canadian rating for the exact same fuel will be several points higher than the posted US rating.

 

Jon.

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Hi Jon- I initiated this thread and I'm in Michigan.  On a clear day I can look across the St. Clair River and see Canada but the octane ratings are US Dept of Agriculture numbers.

 

Are you retired yet?  If yes- how do you like it?

 

Dave

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