Score sheet results discussion?

[chistech]

I’m going to my first AACA show with a car in Hershey this year and I’m trying to understand a little more. My question is, after your car is judged and deductions are made, does the head judge explain the deficiencies found with you so you can correct them. I understand that the other judges cannot speak with you but I’m curious how one knows what to correct for future showing. 

[MCHinson]

After the show, you can request a "read out" from the VP of Judging. What you will receive is a blank (no numbers) judging sheet with the areas in which your car received deductions highlighted. So, you will not receive any information on the number of points that were deducted, but you will know every area where you received any deductions. I would expect a very small amount of highlighting on your sheet. The VP of Judging can also possibly give you some additional feedback to help you narrow down any questions but he will not discuss the number of points deducted.  

[chistech]

Thanks Matt. So it’s pretty much you trying to determine what they found wrong on whatever they checked.

[MCHinson]

The sheet will show the area where any deductions are made. It should be fairly clear where the problem is, but just not the exact number of points deducted. 

[Frantz]

Assuming there were no mistakes made, the judging sheets are pretty easy to tell if it's your car. Incorrect parts, incorrect finish, or condition. While I've never been part of the discussion on why things are set up the way they are I think the not revealing points and 10 point spread for awards is a ideal way to ensure a small mistake or differences in judges is rarely the reason a car moves down a rank. And FWIW captains are generally very good at questioning and training a judge who might be overly zealous as well as one that might be missing some things. Also since only one judge is handling an entire class for any given area, and that cars only compete within their class, greatly helps balance out judging "styles".

[chistech]

All this is good to know but I am worried on some things with my car. The reason is I’ve done a ton of research on my Olds and have worked with the current NAOC 32’ Olds technical adviser plus the prior one to make my restoration as close to OEM as possible. There are other 32’ Olds that have won their juniors that have items that are known to those few who are knowledgeable with the 32’ Olds, as being incorrect. Some are very noticeable, some aren’t, but those items were done differently on Olds compared to most other 32’ brands so I assume the judges might miss them. If they look at my car and see that only the bell of my horns are chrome and the trumpet tube is painted, they might deduct points because most cars aren’t that way and other Olds that have won the junior aren’t either. Same for the wheel and body pinstripes. If the judges don’t question me and just assume my car is incorrect, how will I be able to address this?

 

also have another question: are the classes kept together? In other words, would all class 20B cars, 32-33’ production cars, all be lined up in the same area? Are cars and their general classes kept in the same area of the show grounds year after year? If so, where are the cars of the early 30’s parked?

[MCHinson]

Yes, cars are parked by class. I don't have an old showfield layout map handy, but from memory, I would say that class 20B is somewhere near the front of the showfield, probably about 4 or 5 rows back from Hockersville Road. 

[Phillip Cole]

10 hours ago, chistech said:

All this is good to know but I am worried on some things with my car. The reason is I’ve done a ton of research on my Olds and have worked with the current NAOC 32’ Olds technical adviser plus the prior one to make my restoration as close to OEM as possible. There are other 32’ Olds that have won their juniors that have items that are known to those few who are knowledgeable with the 32’ Olds, as being incorrect. Some are very noticeable, some aren’t, but those items were done differently on Olds compared to most other 32’ brands so I assume the judges might miss them. If they look at my car and see that only the bell of my horns are chrome and the trumpet tube is painted, they might deduct points because most cars aren’t that way and other Olds that have won the junior aren’t either. Same for the wheel and body pinstripes. If the judges don’t question me and just assume my car is incorrect, how will I be able to address this?

 

also have another question: are the classes kept together? In other words, would all class 20B cars, 32-33’ production cars, all be lined up in the same area? Are cars and their general classes kept in the same area of the show grounds year after year? If so, where are the cars of the early 30’s parked?

Hopefully,  you obtained factory documentation on those unique items for your Olds. Bring it with you. The team captain will check on the class prior to judging. Make a point of telling the team captain that you have factory documentation. 

For what it is worth, there is a show field map on the Hershey AACA web site. It does not show where the classes are for this year. Matthew's description seems accurate to me.  Besides,  Hershey Region members do a great job of showing you where your class is and offering guidance. 

BTW, production classes do have different brands being judged together. Team captains know there are distinct differences. And It sounds like you are well prepared.  Now go and enjoy the experience. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Phillip Cole (see edit history)

[chistech]

Thanks Phil. Yes, I have documentation on most everything from factory bulletins, factory photos, and forensic photos taken during disassembly. I am preparing a folder with all that info. That’s a good idea to let the head judge know at the start that I have documentation of things that they might consider incorrect, as my fear was they might not ask me and assume something is incorrect having seen it done another way on another 32’ Olds that’s already won previous AACA awards. Very little is known on the 32’ Olds models and I have done many hours of research and spoken with the few who know the most. I just don’t want my goal of exactly OEM to come back and hurt me in the scoring. Don’t get me wrong that I’m insinuating the judges don’t know their job, it is that someone really has to dig deep into the Olds to really know of all the small and different things done in these cars. To give you an idea, we’ve discovered at least three running changes in the hood assemblies during the production year, two very significant chassis/front motor mount changes,  even the use of eight cylinder indented firewalls on six cylinder cars, and small things like angle cut exhaust pipe ends on deluxe cars with luggage racks to rear spare tire models with straight cut tailpipes! As you can see, I probably went way overboard with my research. 😆 

[Frantz]

11 hours ago, chistech said:

If they look at my car and see that only the bell of my horns are chrome and the trumpet tube is painted, they might deduct points because most cars aren’t that way and other Olds that have won the junior aren’t either. Same for the wheel and body pinstripes. If the judges don’t question me and just assume my car is incorrect, how will I be able to address this?

We are not all knowing as judges. You the owner will know more about your model car than we do. We often judge cars we know little about. You don't even need to know all that much about cars to be a judge, the guidelines are built for this. Before we would mark something as being incorrect finish or part all together we are trained to ask for factory documentation. We learn while judging for sure. But you're more likely to get away with something out of our ignorance than to be marked wrong for it. Judges don't want to sound too silly and ask about everything. We are also specifically trained NOT to compare cars within a class for the purpose of judging, though as people, that might cause us to at least ask the question if we notice a difference.

[chistech]

Thanks for explaining that Doug. As I mentioned, I’m new to showing and I’m just concerned with having everything right and being prepared best I can. While I’m confident my car will do well, I still can’t stop being somewhat nervous I suppose.

[Eric Wahlberg]

I have found, as a judge, that if there is a major deduction when judging a car, the Team Captain will speak with the owner and tell them where the major deduction occurred.  He will not discuss the number of points deducted but will be courteous with the owner in advising the area of the deduction.  If the owner has factory documentation of the area in question he may show it to and discuss it with the Team Captain.  Such documentation is necessary to prove what may be correct and I have witnessed changes in scoring as a result of such documentation.  In addition to sales literature I find that a dated factory service manual, with service bulletins, is excellent proof of how the vehicle was constructed.

 

It sounds like you are well on your way to showing your '32 Olds at Hershey.  As a frequent exhibitor as well as a judge I will close by saying, remain calm and relax while your car is being judged.  The judges are there to make sure each car judged receives the award it has earned, not to take away awards.

[Ed Nieves]

On 9/15/2019 at 1:55 PM, MCHinson said:

After the show, you can request a "read out" from the VP of Judging. What you will receive is a blank (no numbers) judging sheet with the areas in which your car received deductions highlighted. So, you will not receive any information on the number of points that were deducted, but you will know every area where you received any deductions. I would expect a very small amount of highlighting on your sheet. The VP of Judging can also possibly give you some additional feedback to help you narrow down any questions but he will not discuss the number of points deducted.  

I was told recently by Stan ( the current judging V.P.) that this request only applies to cars that don't receive their award they competed for. I was recently denied a copy of my sheet. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

2 minutes ago, ed nieves said:

I was told recently by Stan that this request only applies to car that don't receive their award they competed for. 

That is what the rules actually indicate. The past two or three VP's of Judging (starting with the late Herb Oakes) had changed their practice to provide that feedback for anyone who requested it. I would have to assume from your post that Stan has decided to change back to providing the feedback only as required by policy. I can understand why he would do that. It will make it much easier for the VP of Judging to do his or her job. 

[Ed Nieves]

You car 

2 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

That is what the rules actually indicate. The past two or three VP's of Judging (starting with the late Herb Oakes) had changed their practice to provide that feedback for anyone who requested it. I would have to assume from your post that Stan has decided to change back to providing the feedback only as required by policy. I can understand why he would do that. It will make it much easier for the VP of Judging to do his or her job. 

You are absolutely correct. In the past I have always received a redacted copy of the judging sheet from Mr. Oakes and Mr. Crane. Stan would not provide me a copy and he cited the guideline rule. It makes more sense to provide members a redacted copy upon request. The policy should be revisited and updated to benefit the member. 

[MCHinson]

Herb thought it was a good idea to change it. Chuck apparently followed his lead. When Herb informally changed the process, I understand why he did, but I also realize that he created a lot more work for himself. It also puts the VP of Judging in a potential bad situation when you have a really nice car. If you had a car with no deductions, what does the VP of Judging do when you ask him for feedback? I know that Herb lamented how to respond to that situation. I am aware of a case where he was asked for feedback and told someone "There is nothing that I can tell you about your car.", which was about as close to disclosing a score in violation of the rules as you can come without actually doing it. If Stan won't send you any feedback about your car, I don't think you have anything that you need to worry about on your car.     

[Ed Nieves]

4 hours ago, MCHinson said:

Herb thought it was a good idea to change it. Chuck apparently followed his lead. When Herb informally changed the process, I understand why he did, but I also realize that he created a lot more work for himself. It also puts the VP of Judging in a potential bad situation when you have a really nice car. If you had a car with no deductions, what does the VP of Judging do when you ask him for feedback? I know that Herb lamented how to respond to that situation. I am aware of a case where he was asked for feedback and told someone "There is nothing that I can tell you about your car.", which was about as close to disclosing a score in violation of the rules as you can come without actually doing it. If Stan won't send you any feedback about your car, I don't think you have anything that you need to worry about on your car.     

Maybe the V.P. of judging can have like a administrative assistance that can help them. I understand, your point when there is no deductions. After getting my First Grand National Award  in Virginia Beach, I just requested a copy of my judging sheet as a mere formality (as I have done in the past). I guess the no score divulging rule has been around for a long time, but personally, I don't see what the big deal is. A car owner would have to understand that the car may score differently at a different meet. However, it should be within a close range of the previous judging score, if the car was judged correctly. I do respect Stan's rationale for his decision. 

 

If the sheet reveals no deductions, I guess they can just leave it blank. Technically, it's not releasing a score, sort of speaking. 

[61polara]

Ed, in fairness to the VP of Class Judging, you did receive a very polite response to your request for a judging sheet which you posted in the photos section of this forum.  Congratulations on showing a very nice car.  

 

 

[Ed Nieves]

8 hours ago, 61polara said:

Ed, in fairness to the VP of Class Judging, you did receive a very polite response to your request for a judging sheet which you posted in the photos section of this forum.  Congratulations on showing a very nice car.  

 

 

Not complaining about his response, just expected some consistency with past practices.  It's all good. 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Sorry for the late response.  Ed, there is a 21 or so committee of experienced folks in our judging program.  They meet regularly and discuss procedures and all that is contained in our 100 plus page judging guidelines.  While consistency is an aim it is not always the right thing to do nor is it possible with roughly 1,000 volunteers in our program and requests for new classes, etc.  Our VP's of Judging change from time to time and some are still holding down a full time job.  So, our judging sheets change, procedures change and people change. The consistent thing with not sending back sheets when someone got the award they wished was in effect for decades.  It has only been in recent years that some VP's deviated from it.  Our system will never be perfect as it relies on humans and human decisions that hopefully are always guided by the right thing to do...sometimes we hit the mark and a very few times we miss it but we are trying our best on our members behalf. 

[Ed Nieves]

Steve don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of the AACA and I appreciate all the work that the volunteers do. I just think that the judging sheets should be made available to any member who has their car judged (at the very least, a copy of the sheet outlining any deductions). Personally, I just don't see the harm in it. The latter would be a tool that a member can use to improve their score/car even though they received the award they competed for. There is always room for constructive criticism on behalf of the judges via a judging sheet. 

 

I do realize that sometimes policies remain in effect because that's just the way things have always been done. In spite of this issue, I still encourage people to join the AACA and I personally have always had a positive experience during all the meets I have entered. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Ed, I certainly know you support the club and are active.  You and others have made a strong case for your position.  I sort of have one foot in the camp too but I also know how much work our VP already does and he works in a very demanding full time job now.  There may be another way to do this in the future and I will make sure your voice is heard.  

[Ed Nieves]

2 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Ed, I certainly know you support the club and are active.  You and others have made a strong case for your position.  I sort of have one foot in the camp too but I also know how much work our VP already does and he works in a very demanding full time job now.  There may be another way to do this in the future and I will make sure your voice is heard.  

Thank you, Sir. I will be willing to volunteer and help in any way I can. 

[Avanti Bill]

I have been involved in Judging only in Marque events such as the Thunderbird clubs.  In those events copies of the actual scoring sheets are given to the car owner after the awards banquet, though I'm sure there are variations of this from club to club.  In these club events the judges are almost always very knowledgeable in that they have restored and perfected the same cars that they are judging and they are looking at the details very critically.  I hate to judge, even when I really know the class of cars I am assigned to.  First of all, many of the owners I am judging are my friends which can make any deduction awkward.  Then you get into a level of detail that can seem ridiculous, the head pattern on bolts, the markings on hoses and clamps it goes on and on.  I always looked at my judging sheets as work orders for improving my car and not as a criticism of my work.  I have had many incorrect deductions over the years but I can say that as far as I know they were all honest mistakes.  In the AACA the volunteer judges have to look at many different cars marques and models in a very short amount of time and make a judgement, mistakes can be made, but most of the time the team captain steps in and works it out.  With the thousands of cars judged in AACA if the score sheets were given out with point deductions the litigation (not necessarily court) would be endless.  While I always like to know where my car needs work I understand and support not giving the scored sheets to the car owners, I do think the redacted sheets seemed reasonable if someone wanted them.  This system of the AACA's has worked for a long time, it would be a disaster in my opinion to go to a system that could turn to hundreds of complaints that are in many cases impossible to resolve.  

Edited July 3, 2022 by Avanti Bill (see edit history)

[Ed Nieves]

8 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

I have been involved in Judging only in Marque events such as the Thunderbird clubs.  In those events copies of the actual scoring sheets are given to the car owner after the awards banquet, though I'm sure there are variations of this from club to club.  In these club events the judges are almost always very knowledgeable in that they have restored and perfected the same cars that they are judging and they are looking at the details very critically.  I hate to judge, even when I really know the class of cars I am assigned to.  First of all, many of the owners I am judging are my friends which can make any deduction awkward.  Then you get into a level of detail that can seem ridiculous, the head pattern on bolts, the markings on hoses and clamps it goes on and on.  I always looked at my judging sheets as work orders for improving my car and not as a criticism of my work.  I have had many incorrect deductions over the years but I can say that as far as I know they were all honest mistakes.  In the AACA the volunteer judges have to look at many different cars marques and models in a very short amount of time and make a judgement, mistakes can be made, but most of the time the team captain steps in and works it out.  With the thousands of cars judged in AACA if the score sheets were given out with point deductions the litigation (not necessarily court) would be endless.  While I always like to know where my car needs work I understand and support not giving the scored sheets to the car owners, I do think the redacted sheets seemed reasonable if someone wanted them.  This system of the AACA's has worked for a long time, it would be a disaster in my opinion to go to a system that could turn to hundreds of complaints that are in many cases impossible to resolve.  

 I understand what you are saying, but let me share with you my experience as a NCRS (National Corvette Restorer Society) Master Judge and that's not to say that the AACA should adopt the same method. Since being a judge for approximately 10 years with the NCRS, I have never seen a member complain about their scores. We go over the judging sheet with the owner on the spot and show them where any deductions were made. We also take the time to point it out on the car. Since there is complete transparency, owners don't generally argue about what is factual and evident. Yes, sometimes (and it's the rare exception) we have an owner that will appeal to the team leader (if they disagree with something) and the team leader will address the matter. If the owner is still not satisfied, they can then appeal to the head national judge. The head judges' word is final. Rarely does the latter happens though. 

 

At the end of the day, if someone with the AACA does not get the award they competed for and receives a copy of their judging sheet (as they are entitled to) they can still complain about the deductions on the judging sheet. So, my point is that "complainers" will always find something to complain about. It's human nature. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[Avanti Bill]

21 hours ago, Ed Nieves said:

 I understand what you are saying, but let me share with you my experience as a NCRS (National Corvette Restorer Society) Master Judge and that's not to say that the AACA should adopt the same method. Since being a judge for approximately 10 years with the NCRS, I have never seen a member complain about their scores. We go over the judging sheet with the owner on the spot and show them where any deductions were made. We also take the time to point it out on the car. Since there is complete transparency, owners don't generally argue about what is factual and evident. Yes, sometimes (and it's the rare exception) we have an owner that will appeal to the team leader (if they disagree with something) and the team leader will address the matter. If the owner is still not satisfied, they can then appeal to the head national judge. The head judges' word is final. Rarely does the latter happens though. 

 

At the end of the day, if someone with the AACA does not get the award they competed for and receives a copy of their judging sheet (as they are entitled to) they can still complain about the deductions on the judging sheet. So, my point is that "complainers" will always find something to complain about. It's human nature. 

My only thought is to ask how long a NCRS judging takes per car?  I think I have heard that at the top of the tier the judging can take hours.  AACA has 10-15 minutes per car and have to judge dozens of makes and models.  I think it would be unrealistic to expect to go over point by point at the time of judging and there are different expectations for AACA members who may be newly exposed to system rather than someone going for a NCRS top flight.  In terms of making sure my car is at it's best, tough marque judging is what I like so that I can fix anything that is deficient.

[Ed Nieves]

19 minutes ago, Avanti Bill said:

My only thought is to ask how long a NCRS judging takes per car?  I think I have heard that at the top of the tier the judging can take hours.  AACA has 10-15 minutes per car and have to judge dozens of makes and models.  I think it would be unrealistic to expect to go over point by point at the time of judging and there are different expectations for AACA members who may be newly exposed to system rather than someone going for a NCRS top flight.  In terms of making sure my car is at it's best, tough marque judging is what I like so that I can fix anything that is deficient.

I see your point and yes, all systems have pros and cons.