27donb 394 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 My 24-45 needs a new water tube. The one I have is home made and cobbled together, it works, but doesn't display well. To QUOTE from the BCA judging manual (my copy is from 2005, can't imagine it has changed in this detail): "Engine sheet metal parts from 1922-1935 were painted Black, including valve cover, spark plug cover, hot water return tube and fan. Push rod and water jacket covers were painted engine color, as were the pans. Pre-1926, the combination starter-generator was painted engine Olive Drab. Starting in 1926, the separate two-unit starter and generator were painted Black." If the water tube should be black, why is it so many pictures of 24 Buicks have either a nickel plated or stainless water tube? Was it originally plated for 1924? What is considered correct, black painted or plated (or stainless)? Some reproductions I have seen, the outlet angle toward the radiator inlet is off, resulting in a crooked top radiator hose. Any suggestions for who is making a good accurate water tube? Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Shaw 1,614 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) Why are you concerned about the water tube when you have a duplex cartridge oil filter mounted on the firewall, a BB1 Carb, and blue paint on several engine components? Edited September 14, 2019 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
dibarlaw 1,790 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Don : The one I just removed from my 1925 looks to have some remnants of plating. The NOS one I sold before acquiring the 1925 Master was black oxide coated. The stainless repro I got from Josef is a beautiful site to behold. Once installed I will leave it unpainted. Unfortunately it was off in several dimensions. It took a lot of rework to remove the interior weld scale from the down tubes and flange. One was closed up by 1/2 the diameter of the pipe. A lot a grinding. Also the mounting flange holes did not all line up. I had to open up 2 holes on the ends to get it to line up. I still have to surface it so it can sit flat. The stainless used was very hard. It was like drilling glass. I had inquired at Bob's and supposedly his supplier of the water tubes. No luck. Jesse Morton in Conn. also had some of these made. No response there either. So that is why I got the one from Josef. Comparison of the original with the repro in the back round. Partially closed up connection of main tube to the down tube. Holes for studs for the flange location was off about 1/2 the diameter in two places. It was a good thing that I have a spare head that came off a 1924 6 cyl. so I could check the fit. . I thought it was going to be a simple replacement of a part that fit. NOT! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Share Posted September 14, 2019 5 hours ago, Mark Shaw said: Why are you concerned about the water tube when you have a duplex cartridge oil filter mounted on the firewall, a BB1 Carb, and blue paint on several engine components? It's called planning ahead, and that is an old picture but the only one I had to show the water tube I have. Here is a more recent picture, but doesn't show the water tube. Would you feel better about offering an opinion on plating vs painting now? Or are there other things you see that I should fix first, and leave the water tube till last? 6 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Share Posted September 14, 2019 5 hours ago, dibarlaw said: Don : The one I just removed from my 1925 looks to have some remnants of plating. The NOS one I sold before acquiring the 1925 Master was black oxide coated. The stainless repro I got from Josef is a beautiful site to behold. Once installed I will leave it unpainted. Unfortunately it was off in several dimensions. It took a lot of rework to remove the interior weld scale from the down tubes and flange. One was closed up by 1/2 the diameter of the pipe. A lot a grinding. Also the mounting flange holes did not all line up. I had to open up 2 holes on the ends to get it to line up. I still have to surface it so it can sit flat. The stainless used was very hard. It was like drilling glass. I had inquired at Bob's and supposedly his supplier of the water tubes. No luck. Jesse Morton in Conn. also had some of these made. No response there either. So that is why I got the one from Josef. Comparison of the original with the repro in the back round. Partially closed up connection of main tube to the down tube. Holes for studs for the flange location was off about 1/2 the diameter in two places. It was a good thing that I have a spare head that came off a 1924 6 cyl. so I could check the fit. . I thought it was going to be a simple replacement of a part that fit. NOT! If I could decide on plating (or stainless) vs painting, and find someone who could fabricate one, the material would affect the price and I could paint it myself to save money. The stainless one does look great though. Link to post Share on other sites
JFranklin 503 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Could a muffler shop make one for you? they should have the flanges and pipe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Wiegand 1,769 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Don, The fellow that you want to talk with about your water return tube is Roger McGinnis. His phone number is (804) 337-0109 I believe that this is still a good email address for him - roger.mcginnis@outlook.com He is reproducing the water tubes for the middle teens through middle twenties 6-Cylinder Buicks. The quality of his work is absolutely phenomenal. If I were in your position, I would invest a little time in a phone call to him. Just might make your day. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Shaw 1,614 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 3 hours ago, 27donb said: that is an old picture but the only one I had to show the water tube I have OK, understood. So, will this be a show car or driver? Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted September 15, 2019 Author Share Posted September 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Shaw said: OK, understood. So, will this be a show car or driver? Definitely a driver as the car has been its whole life, but I will still raise the hood at car shows and cruise nights. The car has lost many underhood details that I am trying to bring back, but I never expect to win anything at a show. Edited September 15, 2019 by 27donb (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
dibarlaw 1,790 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 (edited) Don: Terry beat me to the suggestion of Roger McGinnis to make the tubes. I did not get to my reference in time. Dean Tryon had asked me about that possibility during his visit to our home recently. I can provide one of the original tubes for him to copy. Engine photo of a very nice, older restored 1924-45 that showed up at our Mason-Dixon show back in 2016.The original water tube had a heavy silver coating on it as I could see where there had been rust spots. This car is one that I tried to buy at auction in 2010. 2010 Auction. It had a locked up engine and the new owner spent several years and thousands of dollars rebuilding components (water pump starter generator etc.) finally tearing down the engine and still not getting it unlocked. Then his business went bankrupt. Auction photos below. This auction was in Dec.2014 or Jan 2015. The next owner bought it at that sale for less than half what was paid at the 2010 auction. I believe I bid up to $15,000 at the 2010 sale. He had things unlocked and running in short order. The original water tube had a heavy silver coating on it as I could see where there had been rust spots. Edited September 15, 2019 by dibarlaw (see edit history) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted September 15, 2019 Author Share Posted September 15, 2019 That's one of the few 24's I've seen with a green steering box, most seem to be black, so I did mine black. Even though it's a 24-55, I've been using this one as a general model as to how details should be because the restoration is so beautiful and complete. Here is another 24-45, but the water tube looks too low in the back. Could be an illusion. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Hubert_25-25 1,538 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Don, The steering boxes were green. At least with the Hirsch engine paint, it is pretty easy to change colors. Here you can still see some of the green paint on my steering box. Hugh 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted September 15, 2019 Author Share Posted September 15, 2019 42 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said: Don, The steering boxes were green. At least with the Hirsch engine paint, it is pretty easy to change colors. Here you can still see some of the green paint on my steering box. Hugh Just makes me wonder with some of the high end restorations, where everything seems so original and correct, but they got the box color wrong. Is that a 24 or 25 steering box in your picture? My 27 54CC engine had original green paint on the rear breather can. In a picture I took before disassembly, it showed green but the backside against the engine was bare metal, with no signs of black. Yet, the BCA manual states all sheet metal should be black. I stayed with a green breather when I repainted my engine. Link to post Share on other sites
Hubert_25-25 1,538 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 This is 1925. I think most people would assume something like a steering box would not be engine color-but this is a Buick. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
29StudiePrez 91 Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) I was reading this entire thread regarding what the color may or may not have been on the water tube. I ran across this original photo of a 1924 Buick Sedan that had been in a wreck. The hood is open and the water tube is clearly visible, it does not look like it is a dark color vs the other colors in the photo. (Like the radiator hose) I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions. Edited November 2, 2019 by 29StudiePrez Typos (see edit history) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 On 11/1/2019 at 11:20 PM, 29StudiePrez said: I was reading this entire thread regarding what the color may or may not have been on the water tube. I ran across this original photo of a 1924 Buick Sedan that had been in a wreck. The hood is open and the water tube is clearly visible, it does not look like it is a dark color vs the other colors in the photo. (Like the radiator hose) I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions. Thank you for posting the pictures. It looks to me like the tube is plated. So just for an update, I have been in contact with Roger McGinnis and along with the help of Larry DiBarry and others, Roger now has a pattern from which to fabricate a new water tube. My decision is to have the tube plated for my car. I will update and provide progress pictures as they become available! Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 622 Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 I had Roger make me one for my 1922 and it is being plated as we speak. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Mark Kikta said: I had Roger make me one for my 1922 and it is being plated as we speak. Can you share any pictures? I haven't seen any of his finished work. Link to post Share on other sites
dibarlaw 1,790 Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Don. I should have taken a few photos of them when I saw them on his table at Hershey. In the meantime. I have a little progress on the master engine. I finally reassembled the carb/riser/manifold assembly and mounted all back on the engine. Now, I just have to see if it will run with the new timing gear. The first time we saw the car when we helped the owner's sons get it running in March of 2013. The heat system was still in play at this time and the rusted out by pass tube had a piece of rubber hose vulcanized to it! In 2016 when I brought it home. The carb/riser vacuum tank and fuel tank was already cleaned. Yesterday's progress. NOS gaskets came with the car. Cleaned with naval jelly and scrubbed. Coated with Permatex copper adhesive/sealer spray. Coated 1 1/4" O.D. steel bypass tube I had made up. (the 1924 is straight) Also with newly machined collars. I had to shorten the overall length of the tube because of the freeze plugs inserted into the carb and the exhaust damper cutting off all heat to the carb. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 59 minutes ago, dibarlaw said: Don. I should have taken a few photos of them when I saw them on his table at Hershey. In the meantime. I have a little progress on the master engine. I finally reassembled the carb/riser/manifold assembly and mounted all back on the engine. Now, I just have to see if it will run with the new timing gear. The first time we saw the car when we helped the owner's sons get it running in March of 2013. The heat system was still in play at this time and the rusted out by pass tube had a piece of rubber hose vulcanized to it! In 2016 when I brought it home. The carb/riser vacuum tank and fuel tank was already cleaned. Beautiful work, great transformation. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Wiegand 1,769 Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Larry, I will second what Don said! Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 622 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Sorry I can’t post pictures because it is in the plating shop. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
29StudiePrez 91 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Is Roger going to make these tubes out of stainless steele? I know it would be more expensive, however you would never have to worry about water damage to the tube again, not would it need to be plated. Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 6 hours ago, 29StudiePrez said: Is Roger going to make these tubes out of stainless steele? I know it would be more expensive, however you would never have to worry about water damage to the tube again, not would it need to be plated. Roger is using copper, with hard brass or steel mounting flanges. There is someone making tubes in stainless, but if you go back and read the beginning of this thread, the stainless tubes are not as accurate, and require extensive fitting. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 8 hours ago, Mark Kikta said: Sorry I can’t post pictures because it is in the plating shop. Right, I read it was being plated, but I was hoping for some before plating pictures. Link to post Share on other sites
1924 6-55 Sport Tourer 40 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Ok, To add a bit more confusion to the discussion. This is the water tube on my '24 Master. I cannot confirm whether it is original, however you will note that the "rear" of the tube is square. Additionaly, i see no evidence anywhere of nickle plating. If the tube had been repaired over it's lifetime (that's a possability), the three "legs" look to be factory and - as mentioned - show no signs of nickel plating. David. Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 622 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 27 donb, Sorry I thought I took a picture of it but can't locate it. I can say it was shipped to me in a padded wooden box and was a very nice piece of work. The welds were smooth and well done and it seemed to fit perfectly looking exactly like the original. I believe it was very well done ! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
29StudiePrez 91 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 11/4/2019 at 3:50 AM, 1924 6-55 Sport Tourer said: Ok, To add a bit more confusion to the discussion. This is the water tube on my '24 Master. I cannot confirm whether it is original, however you will note that the "rear" of the tube is square. Additionaly, i see no evidence anywhere of nickle plating. If the tube had been repaired over it's lifetime (that's a possability), the three "legs" look to be factory and - as mentioned - show no signs of nickel plating. David. For Comparison sake, here are close up pictures of the legs on the water tube on my '24 Master Series 51a. The motor has never been touched and the miles are original. I could be wrong, but I do not think they originally had a squared off end to the tube. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
1924 6-55 Sport Tourer 40 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 29StudiePrez, You are most likely right. I'm only showing what is on my car. I dont think it looks outta place, but comparing to photos i have seen here on the forum mine looks "abnormal". I have nothing here in my State to compare it too. What i am sure about is the lack of nickel plating. David Link to post Share on other sites
29StudiePrez 91 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, 1924 6-55 Sport Tourer said: 29StudiePrez, You are most likely right. I'm only showing what is on my car. I dont think it looks outta place, but comparing to photos i have seen here on the forum mine looks "abnormal". I have nothing here in my State to compare it too. What i am sure about is the lack of nickel plating. David Understandable. In the original photo showing the hood up, where it is clearly noticeable the difference in the colors between the black of the radiator hose and the metal of the water tube, It's obvious it wasn't also painted black, and since there is a scarcity of any original water tubes that anyone has that do have any evidence of original nickel plating, I wonder if the factory just left the water tube plain bare metal or even just buffed it out for appearance? That's the only logical guess I can come up with as to why in the picture the water tube has a noticeably shiny metal look to it vs what you'd see if it was painted black? Edited November 8, 2019 by 29StudiePrez Typo (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
FLYER15015 771 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) David, Based on my "Google" search just now, yours looks like a fabricated replacement. Original old pictures show a tapered tube with a radiused rear end down to the flange, and I'll bet you 8 to 5 it should be nickel plated Edited November 8, 2019 by FLYER15015 (see edit history) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
1924 6-55 Sport Tourer 40 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Thanks for both of your replies, and i agree 100%. My water tube is solid so i see no need in replacing it (and i quite like the look of it too). If once the car is completed and i'm not happy with it/looking for another project 🤔 i might replace it them. Time will tell. David. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Oregon Desert model 45 325 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 The cooling tube on my 25-45 has 80% of its original nickel plating remaining, but is not original to this car. I used some copper sheet to patch up the worst rust holes, yet there are still more pinholes needing patching. Kevin 2 Link to post Share on other sites
bubba 36 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 My 25-45 has the original water tube and it's nickel plated. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
29StudiePrez 91 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 Link to post Share on other sites
1924 6-55 Sport Tourer 40 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) Hi again, As i previously stated, i agree 100% that the water tube on my car is incorrect (as it most likely has been repaired sometime throughout it's life), interestingly though i find yet another Australian car with the same/similar water tube! Maybe it was a common repair or replacement here in Australia should the original rust out. The part i find interesting is that there a two 1924 Sport Tourers with similar water tubes 🤔 here in Australia. Although you cannot argue against the many 100's of photgaphic examples to the contrary, available here on the forum and the World Wide Web. David. Edited December 7, 2019 by 1924 6-55 Sport Tourer Additional information (see edit history) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
27donb 394 Posted June 16 Author Share Posted June 16 UPDATE: Roger McGinnis has delivered a new water tube to me for my 24-45, which he fabricated from scratch, in copper. It looks exactly as the original pattern lent to me and Roger by a friend. The work is excellent, and I appreciate all his time and effort and skill in producing this part, that I could not make, for my car. It dropped down onto the cylinder head studs perfectly. Next stop, plating! (as time and funds allow) 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 622 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 That looks great! Roger does nice work! Mine also fit like a glove 4 Link to post Share on other sites
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