27donb

1924 Buick 6 Cylinder Water Tube

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My 24-45 needs a new water tube.  The one I have is home made and cobbled together, it works, but doesn't display well.

 

1948894678_123115pops1924buickhigherquality(17).thumb.jpg.560da673361527dd8bcf3098c0757a1c.jpg

 

To QUOTE from the BCA judging manual (my copy is from 2005, can't imagine it has changed in this detail):

 

"Engine sheet metal parts from 1922-1935 were painted Black, including valve cover, spark plug cover, hot water return tube
and fan. Push rod and water jacket covers were painted engine color, as were the pans. Pre-1926, the combination starter-generator
was painted engine Olive Drab. Starting in 1926, the separate two-unit starter and generator were painted Black."

 

If the water tube should be black, why is it so many pictures of 24 Buicks have either a nickel plated or stainless water tube?  Was it originally plated for 1924?  What is considered correct, black painted or plated (or stainless)?

 

Some reproductions I have seen, the outlet angle toward the radiator inlet is off, resulting in a crooked top radiator hose.

 

Any suggestions for who is making a good accurate water tube?

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Why are you concerned about the water tube when you have a duplex cartridge oil filter mounted on the firewall, a BB1 Carb, and blue paint on several engine components?

 

Edited by Mark Shaw (see edit history)
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Don :

 The one I just removed from my 1925 looks to have some remnants of plating. The NOS one I sold before acquiring the 1925 Master was black oxide coated. The stainless repro I got from Josef is a beautiful site to behold. Once installed I will leave it unpainted. Unfortunately it was off in several dimensions. It took a lot of rework to remove the interior weld scale from the down tubes and flange. One was closed up by 1/2 the diameter of the pipe. A lot a grinding. Also the mounting flange holes did not all line up. I had to open up 2 holes on the ends to get it to line up. I still have to surface it so it can sit flat. The stainless used was very hard. It was like drilling glass.

 I had inquired at Bob's and supposedly his supplier of the water tubes. No luck. Jesse Morton in Conn. also had some of these made. No response there either. So that is why I got the one from Josef.

DSCF6060.thumb.JPG.996bd468eb56506fc57ade5eaa7199cf.JPG

Comparison of the original with the repro in the back round.

DSCF6096.thumb.JPG.c5369da041acc4852e03c74a50dd507e.JPG

Partially closed up connection of main tube to the down tube.

DSCF6057.thumb.JPG.f225df94ff05bece87a47bd77dbea629.JPG

Holes for studs for the flange location was off about 1/2 the diameter in two places.  It was a good thing that I have a spare head that came off a 1924 6 cyl. so I could check the fit. . I thought it was going to be a simple replacement of a part that fit.  NOT!

 

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5 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

Why are you concerned about the water tube when you have a duplex cartridge oil filter mounted on the firewall, a BB1 Carb, and blue paint on several engine components?

 

 

It's called planning ahead, and that is an old picture but the only one I had to show the water tube I have.

 

Here is a more recent picture, but doesn't show the water tube. 

20190831_160938.thumb.jpg.c2e5ca5192b423f9f8c2f6be6e2c1577.jpg

 

Would you feel better about offering an opinion on plating vs painting now?  Or are there other things you see that I should fix first, and leave the water tube till last? 

 

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5 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Don :

 The one I just removed from my 1925 looks to have some remnants of plating. The NOS one I sold before acquiring the 1925 Master was black oxide coated. The stainless repro I got from Josef is a beautiful site to behold. Once installed I will leave it unpainted. Unfortunately it was off in several dimensions. It took a lot of rework to remove the interior weld scale from the down tubes and flange. One was closed up by 1/2 the diameter of the pipe. A lot a grinding. Also the mounting flange holes did not all line up. I had to open up 2 holes on the ends to get it to line up. I still have to surface it so it can sit flat. The stainless used was very hard. It was like drilling glass.

 I had inquired at Bob's and supposedly his supplier of the water tubes. No luck. Jesse Morton in Conn. also had some of these made. No response there either. So that is why I got the one from Josef.

DSCF6060.thumb.JPG.996bd468eb56506fc57ade5eaa7199cf.JPG

Comparison of the original with the repro in the back round.

DSCF6096.thumb.JPG.c5369da041acc4852e03c74a50dd507e.JPG

Partially closed up connection of main tube to the down tube.

DSCF6057.thumb.JPG.f225df94ff05bece87a47bd77dbea629.JPG

Holes for studs for the flange location was off about 1/2 the diameter in two places.  It was a good thing that I have a spare head that came off a 1924 6 cyl. so I could check the fit. . I thought it was going to be a simple replacement of a part that fit.  NOT!

 

 

If I could decide on plating (or stainless) vs painting, and find someone who could fabricate one, the material would affect the price and I could paint it myself to save money. 

 

The stainless one does look great though. 

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Could a muffler shop make one for you? they should have the flanges and pipe.

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Don,

The fellow that you want to talk with about your water return tube is Roger McGinnis.  His phone number is (804) 337-0109  I believe that this is still a good email address for him - roger.mcginnis@outlook.com   He is reproducing the water tubes for the middle teens through middle twenties 6-Cylinder Buicks.  The quality of his work is absolutely phenomenal.  If I were in your position, I would invest a little time in a phone call to him.  Just might make your day.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

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3 hours ago, 27donb said:

that is an old picture but the only one I had to show the water tube I have

OK, understood.  So, will this be a show car or driver?

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2 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

OK, understood.  So, will this be a show car or driver?

 

Definitely a driver as the car has been its whole life, but I will still raise the hood at car shows and cruise nights.  The car has lost many underhood details that I am trying to bring back, but I never expect to win anything at a show. 

Edited by 27donb (see edit history)

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Don:

Terry beat me to the suggestion of Roger McGinnis to make the tubes. I did not get to my reference in time. Dean Tryon had asked me about that possibility during his visit to our home recently. I can provide one of the original tubes for him to copy.

DSCF6064.thumb.JPG.3d4f1d5b68f323814f468d00bfe9d374.JPG

Engine photo of a very nice, older restored 1924-45 that showed up at our Mason-Dixon show back in 2016.The original water tube had a heavy silver coating on it as I could see where there had been rust spots. This car is one that I tried to buy at auction in 2010.

1919925621_DSCF0647(1024x768).thumb.jpg.a1dcd33a7fccf903fb77abbf545643bc.jpg 2010 Auction.

It had a locked up engine and the new owner spent several years and thousands of dollars rebuilding components (water pump starter generator etc.) finally tearing down the engine and still not getting it unlocked. Then his business  went bankrupt. Auction photos below.

314715681_fi141.jpg.d6430419715cbe1c26b6d5e3afbf14c1.jpg  This auction was in Dec.2014 or Jan 2015.1601040863_fi171.jpg.5406e641b4410b683539b6ca77675495.jpg

645264710_fi181.jpg.c40f993bebb8c09792eca7e310302790.jpg

The next owner bought it at that sale for less than half what was paid at the 2010 auction. I believe I bid up to $15,000 at the 2010 sale. He had things unlocked and running in short order. 

The original water tube had a heavy silver coating on it as I could see where there had been rust spots.

DSCF6073.thumb.JPG.b1b744fa0fd05ae08bcd369790459067.JPG

 

 

 

Edited by dibarlaw (see edit history)
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That's one of the few 24's I've seen with a green steering box, most seem to be black, so I did mine black. 

 

Even though it's a 24-55, I've been using this one as a general model as to how details should be because the restoration is so beautiful and complete. 

 

1924-buick-model-55-sports-touring-automobile-3.jpg.50c94eab10f17a2f8b930285be61204d.jpg

 

1924-buick-model-55-sports-touring-automobile-8.jpg.089aa601f82c18800444d791e755f277.jpg

 

Here is another 24-45, but the water tube looks too low in the back.   Could be an illusion. 

20171209_170346.png.c38305a7fa469432d36e5fb68d14db9e.png

 

20171209_170421.thumb.png.d8b0ab2c64866e577a711fe31a7bc079.png

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Don, 

   The steering boxes were green.  At least with the Hirsch engine paint, it is pretty easy to change colors.   Here you can still see some of the green paint on my steering box.  Hugh

IMG_6128.thumb.JPG.7bfc58a08f14e527a2b0bca025999877.JPG

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42 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Don, 

   The steering boxes were green.  At least with the Hirsch engine paint, it is pretty easy to change colors.   Here you can still see some of the green paint on my steering box.  Hugh

IMG_6128.thumb.JPG.7bfc58a08f14e527a2b0bca025999877.JPG

 

Just makes me wonder with some of the high end restorations, where everything seems so original and correct, but they got the box color wrong.

 

Is that a 24 or 25 steering box in your picture?

 

My 27 54CC engine had original green paint on the rear breather can.  In a picture I took before disassembly, it showed green but the backside against the engine was bare metal, with no signs of black.  Yet, the BCA manual states all sheet metal should be black.  I stayed with a green breather when I repainted my engine.

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This is 1925. I think most people would assume something like a steering box would not be engine color-but this is a Buick.  

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I was reading this entire thread regarding what the color may or may not have been on the water tube. I ran across this original photo of a 1924 Buick Sedan that had been in a wreck. The hood is open and the water tube is clearly visible, it does not look like it is a dark color vs the other colors in the photo. (Like the radiator hose) I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions.

Screenshot_20191101-201318_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20191101-201243_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20191101-201228_eBay.jpg

Edited by 29StudiePrez
Typos (see edit history)
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On 11/1/2019 at 11:20 PM, 29StudiePrez said:

I was reading this entire thread regarding what the color may or may not have been on the water tube. I ran across this original photo of a 1924 Buick Sedan that had been in a wreck. The hood is open and the water tube is clearly visible, it does not look like it is a dark color vs the other colors in the photo. (Like the radiator hose) I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions.

 

 

Screenshot_20191101-201228_eBay.jpg

 

 

Thank you for posting the pictures.  It looks to me like the tube is plated.

 

So just for an update, I have been in contact with Roger McGinnis and along with the help of Larry DiBarry and others, Roger now has a pattern from which to fabricate a new water tube.

 

My decision is to have the tube plated for my car.

 

I will update and provide progress pictures as they become available!

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I had Roger make me one for my 1922 and it is being plated as we speak.

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2 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

I had Roger make me one for my 1922 and it is being plated as we speak.

 

Can you share any pictures? 

 

I haven't seen any of his finished work. 

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Don.

I should have taken a few photos of them when I saw them on his table at Hershey.

 In the meantime. I have a little progress on the master engine. I finally reassembled the carb/riser/manifold assembly and mounted all back on the engine. Now, I just have to see if it will run with the new timing gear.

 

The first time we saw the car when we helped the owner's sons get it running in March of 2013. The heat system was still in play at this time and the rusted out by pass tube had a piece of rubber hose vulcanized to it!

1990120630_DSCN7354(1024x768).thumb.jpg.9789c3324654006fa13419d385b87019.jpg

 

In 2016 when I brought it home. The carb/riser vacuum tank and fuel tank was already cleaned. 

DSCF5668.thumb.JPG.625f648cc74d230ffba19d3046847524.JPG

 

Yesterday's progress. NOS gaskets came with the car. Cleaned with naval jelly and scrubbed. Coated with Permatex copper adhesive/sealer spray.

186935867_DSCF7873(1024x768).thumb.jpg.01b6e0dba9b02d7c5c2ea4ca372c65c8.jpg     188233982_DSCF7874(1024x768).thumb.jpg.a79b7811bc1e0032eb0000baa657374b.jpg

                                                                                     Coated 1 1/4" O.D. steel bypass tube I had made up. (the 1924 is straight) Also with newly machined collars. I had to shorten the overall length of the tube because of the freeze plugs inserted into the carb and the exhaust damper cutting off all heat to the carb.

DSCF7875.thumb.JPG.de5ec20a8fde2cba6f56bb8a4a19b03e.JPG

 

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59 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

Don.

I should have taken a few photos of them when I saw them on his table at Hershey.

 In the meantime. I have a little progress on the master engine. I finally reassembled the carb/riser/manifold assembly and mounted all back on the engine. Now, I just have to see if it will run with the new timing gear.

 

The first time we saw the car when we helped the owner's sons get it running in March of 2013. The heat system was still in play at this time and the rusted out by pass tube had a piece of rubber hose vulcanized to it!

1990120630_DSCN7354(1024x768).thumb.jpg.9789c3324654006fa13419d385b87019.jpg

 

In 2016 when I brought it home. The carb/riser vacuum tank and fuel tank was already cleaned. 

DSCF5668.thumb.JPG.625f648cc74d230ffba19d3046847524.JPG

 

  

DSCF7875.thumb.JPG.de5ec20a8fde2cba6f56bb8a4a19b03e.JPG

 

 

Beautiful work, great transformation.

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Sorry I can’t post pictures because it is in the plating shop.  

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Is Roger going to make these tubes out of stainless steele? I know it would be more expensive, however you would never have to worry about water damage to the tube again, not would it need to be plated.

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6 hours ago, 29StudiePrez said:

Is Roger going to make these tubes out of stainless steele? I know it would be more expensive, however you would never have to worry about water damage to the tube again, not would it need to be plated.

 

Roger is using copper, with hard brass or steel mounting flanges. 

 

There is someone making tubes in stainless, but if you go back and read the beginning of this thread, the stainless tubes are not as accurate, and require extensive fitting. 

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8 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Sorry I can’t post pictures because it is in the plating shop.  

 

Right, I read it was being plated, but I was hoping for some before plating pictures. 

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