Mister Monaco

Help a Kid Out...

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I have seen those little things from time to time, and they have always got a second or third look from me. A little over a year ago I drove past this one on a side street. Seeing the price and very low miles, I parked to take a look. I didn't and don't know anything about them, but found myself wishing I was in a position to still be buying things. It was gone in a week or two, so I figured it was a good deal. 

Not that it matters, but, just for the help of it, was it ?   -   Carl 

 

 

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That was a pretty good buy. Looks like it was a greaan car without the tan interior which most had.  The black looks better.  The wife would have liked this one.   I have been trying to decide whether to spend 10 G on a real nice one or 5 G on a higher mileage decent one if I ever get real serious about buying one. Seem to be quite a few in both categories.  Either way you would probably get your money back when you sold it,  as there is always a market for cheap decent sporty cars and will probably be a market for nice clean ones that I doubt will drop much below the 10G which seems to be the bottom of the market on the nice low mileage well kept Redlines.   I have seen them for up to 20G recently but I also don't think they are moving at that.  They do seem to go around 10 fairly quickly. 

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11 hours ago, Mister Monaco said:

Thanks for the suggestions, guys, but I wanted an aesthetically nice car, and I don't really like the VW or the Karmann. I was thinking along the lines of a 1960s early-gen Mustang, or some other fast but cheap car. *Sorry if I'm being picky.

 

I had a rust free '65 Mustang and I have to tell you it was the worst car I ever owned.

If you really want a Mustang get a LATE 60's or even early 70's model.

The early ones have steel foil bodies and there is a host of other problems.

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Posted (edited)

I looked in the Aug. 23rd Crazy Mickey's Auto Chaser and filtered out the only cars that come even close to what you said. I'm sure that's the first place anyone on this forum would go to for a car.🙄

Higher prices made it in just to show what folk are asking. Lookin' in Montana is crazy, but stuff doesn't rust out as much there as other places. 

  • 1975 Ford Maverick Grabber  2DR/302/Refreshed for Racing/mustang 4 Spd/Alum Intake/New Holley 4-Barrel/Hi-Output Oil Pump/No Rust/Fast & Loud. PH: #406-455-9525, Will consider trade.
  • 1969 Karmann Ghia Awesome Condition  Wife wants something 1967 w/ a V-8. Cash offers or '67? 406-899-8167, $15,000.
  • 1969 Mustang Fastback  Factory 302 V-8/3Spd Manual/A/C. Beautiful car, still stock! 406-549-1700, $29,995.
  • 1965 Corvair Conv.  2DR/4-Spd/6-Cyl. Runs Good, Needs restored. 406-899-8167, $4,000 cash offers.
  • 1964 Ford Ranchero  6-Cyl/3-Spd/All New Interior/Rebuilt Engine/Perilous Owner Spent $10K. 406-266-4172, asking $4,995.
  • leaving out the $7K '81 chevy cause your mom&dad cannot afford the insurance for a h.s. student w/ a vette. sorry, no.
  • 1984 Avanti  43,500 Miles/305 H.O. Chevy V-8/Chevy 700 R4 Trans./Tan Leather Interior. 406-225-3293, $15,000 OBO.
  • 1998 Mustang Conv. 800-823-1234, $5,995.
  • 1955 Pontiac 2DR Hardtop  V-8/Auto/82K Miles. 406-250-2216, $9,500.
  • 1996 Camaro Z-28 Coupe  V-8/T-Tops/6-Spd Manual/Moroso Intake/Edelbrock Headers/Borla Exhaust/Cust. Paint/Winter Tires Incl/Well-Maintained/151K Miles. 406-262-4879, $5,500.
  • 1989 Mustang LS Conv.  Rides Like New/Runs Great. Ron @406-899-6829, $4,300.
  • 1980 MG MGB Roadster  4 Cyl./4-Spd/Conv. Top In Good Shape/Engine Upgraded w/ New Petronix Electronic Ignition/Runs Great/Nice Car. 406-253-9877, $6,500 cash.

I tried to leave off the SUVs and Late-Models. I included 1 pickup cause of the unusual lingo, and included the Avanti even though you may be unfamiliar with it. Studebaker came out with this hi-performance Grand Tourer in 1962. Radical: fiberglass body, Stude 289 V-8 avail. in 4-barrel, 2 4-barrel, and supercharged* versions. Studebaker folded, a continuation model came out...made 1964-2006 w/ various components. You might be able to find some of these online at www.montanautochaser.com if they are still available:

 

 

*Don't tell anybody a stock Avanti did 168 m.p.h. at Bonneville in 1963. 

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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10 minutes ago, Mister Monaco said:

What about a salvage-titled modern sports/supercar to build for club racing/trackdays?

Yes!  If you really want to be involved in F1 or any sports car racing you will need to know how more modern cars perform.  You will need to know how engine management software and computers function together, what the sensors monitor and how they turn the car for maximum output.  Analog to digital converters, fuel mapping, ABS and traction sensors, all of that stuff will have to become second nature to you to attain your dream.  Get something from at least the 1990s on and be ready to learn.  If you want a basic engine primer, buy an old lawn mower, take it apart and put it back together and make it run again.

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I love the Sky, my niece in California just sold one in pristine condition, wish that I had the room. 

Of course I don't know what your interests are, but a Mustang from the early 80'-the 90's would be interesting to me.

I'm guessing that you are an import guy though. I had a TR3 and a Datsun 240Z. Maybe just nostalgia but I would love to have a decent 240z again. Rust is not your friend-Go West young man, but not for the same reason Horace Greeley first used them. 

 

Bill

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Posted (edited)

As a first generation (NA) Miata owner, I have to say that if you want a sportscar that just works, you can't beat an NA Miata. Mine has just over 300k miles on it now. Yes some things have broken but far less then you would expect from an average car. I don't think the engine has ever been overhauled or even apart. Outside of the heat shield on the exhaust, there aren't any bolts or washers out of place. It doesn't use much oil. It has been over the Colorado rockies several times in recent years, and I am about to do it again.

 

These cars were good. Maybe even too good. They sort of have a reputation as a "hairdresser's car", despite being the most raced model of all time. That is because in years prior, sportscars were finicky things that took some mechanical ability to keep running. They weren't for everyone. When the Miata came along, suddenly anyone could do it. You could buy one on a loan, be a complete idiot about the maintenance, and at the end of the year it would still be running. Try that with a 70s Alfa, Fiat 124, or Spitfire. You might have wound up with a car payment, yard art, and no way to get to work. Yeah, if you had some mechanical ability you would probably be fine, but not everyone does or did.

 

Probably the best recommendation in the thread so far is that Alfa. I have been away from the Alfa scene for a few years, so I don't know how much that has changed since the "reintroduction" in the USA, but in my experience you will meet more hardcore car guys in Alfa circles than anywhere else. Yeah, that Spider is going to be a bunch more work than a Miata, and the learning curve is pretty damn steep for someone without previous car experience. On the other hand, I met and talked with an ex-Lotus F1 driver at an Alfa club meeting, and one off the guys I used to hang with a lot in the 90s went to Europe in the 2000s and was a driving instructor on the Nordschleife. You meet people like this with an Alfa, not so much with a Miata.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Mister Monaco said:

What about a salvage-titled modern sports/supercar to build for club racing/trackdays?

 

For most of us the overall cost of such things is the deciding factor. A big part of the cost on track is tires. I personally favor a older purpose built, amateur level  racing car. The reason is with 120 HP and 900 pounds weight my Lola can go a whole season on one set of tires. O.K. 2 sets if you are really pushing it. A 350 H.P. 2400 pound car is no faster on most tracks, but will often  use up a set of tires in one to two weekends. And over a couple of seasons that's a tidy sum spent on tires.

Real race cars are very straightforward machines. Everything is very accessible and everything that might need to be adjusted for track set up already has a provision for adjustment. Generally all the bodywork can be removed in a couple of minutes and then everything is right there in front of you. Most of the lower levels mandate a spec engine , Formula Ford, Sports 2000. etc. so you can avoid very expensive modifications needed on most road cars. Get the chassis set up right and work on your driving. 

It's hard to get a better bang for the buck than an older Formula Ford. Don't worry about winning, there is always someone with a lot more resources that will be consistently be on the podium. Use it as a learning experience and just worry about improving your own lap time.

 Also factory built race cars ; as opposed to modified production cars , tend to recover more of your expense at re-sale time. Repairs and rebuilds will end up being an out of pocket expense, but in most cases depreciation will be very little.  Something like an early 1980's Van Diemen is hard to beat value wise.

 

Apex Speed is a great amateur level racing forum. Everyone from beginners to seasoned veteran's with decades of racing. Good buy and sell section as well .

 

Greg in Canada

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Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

Just a thought but the mid-00s Chrysler Crossfire was available as a Coupe or convertible, sold about 75K examples, is a Mercedes SLK320 under the skin, SRT is a SLK32 (blown V6) but those are not cheap like the N/A ones. Very reliable and lotsa support in the forum. Quite undervalued possible because there are so many. Coupe particularly with 6 speed manual is fun to drive and can make a great track day/autocross car.

 

Sky & Solstice both had 4 cyl engines or I'd have one.

 

" stock Avanti " well you have to consider the R5+ engine stock...

Edited by padgett (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

For most of us the overall cost of such things is the deciding factor. A big part of the cost on track is tires. I personally favor a older purpose built, amateur level  racing car. The reason is with 120 HP and 900 pounds weight my Lola can go a whole season on one set of tires. O.K. 2 sets if you are really pushing it. A 350 H.P. 2400 pound car is no faster on most tracks, but will often  use up a set of tires in one to two weekends. And over a couple of seasons that's a tidy sum spent on tires.

Real race cars are very straightforward machines. Everything is very accessible and everything that might need to be adjusted for track set up already has a provision for adjustment. Generally all the bodywork can be removed in a couple of minutes and then everything is right there in front of you. Most of the lower levels mandate a spec engine , Formula Ford, Sports 2000. etc. so you can avoid very expensive modifications needed on most road cars. Get the chassis set up right and work on your driving. 

It's hard to get a better bang for the buck than an older Formula Ford. Don't worry about winning, there is always someone with a lot more resources that will be consistently be on the podium. Use it as a learning experience and just worry about improving your own lap time.

 Also factory built race cars ; as opposed to modified production cars , tend to recover more of your expense at re-sale time. Repairs and rebuilds will end up being an out of pocket expense, but in most cases depreciation will be very little.  Something like an early 1980's Van Diemen is hard to beat value wise.

 

Apex Speed is a great amateur level racing forum. Everyone from beginners to seasoned veteran's with decades of racing. Good buy and sell section as well .

 

Greg in Canada

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Thanks Greg, but I don't plan on actually racing that often, since school and academics get in the way. I was thinking about just doing some occasional trackdays/races around NY, so tyres probably won't be a massive issue. The only thing is I hope to one day race in some form of endurance race with my mates, and a sports/supercar is more suited for that than a formula car. That and I want to build a sports/supercar.

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This fellow built this car himself, 1980 BMW 320i, roll cage, 4 cylinder, bored and/or stroked to 2.4 liters, normally aspirated, not turbo. He has lots of fun improving on it. These are cheap cars with lots of potential, and are often used for autocrossing (dirt tracks) too.

 

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Posted (edited)

Years ago as a student I was one of a group of four that pooled our resources in order to do something similar. A much simpler car than a BMW, a Bug Eye Sprite. But locally a very competitive class.  The owner of the car was a mechanical engineering student, his younger brother a mechanical engineering tech. student, I was a marine engineering student and the fourth had no technical interest but was a very good driver who was being coached by his future father in law who himself was a very experienced, very accomplished competition driver.

  It was a lot of fun, but also a lot of work developing the car. Adapting a production car is more work than many realise. Every change takes time and money, and is always a trial and error process. Usually lots of errors if you do things in a properly analytic manner.  Definitely lots of learning, but much frustration as well. Due mainly to  the vision of the mechanical engineer by the second year things really clicked in the results department as well. 

 I am older now. And retired so play money is tight. I have slowly come to the realization that an older factory built car is both better and cheaper than anything I can build myself. The mid 70's up till the late 1980's is the sweet spot for simple , affordable , safe, and capable factory cars.

 A shot of the Lola without its bodywork. It took 3 years of searching to find one that fit my very limited budget. But eventually my patience was rewarded. { Part of the low price is that the engine is out and needs a freshen up.} 

Cheaper and faster than a well prepared BMW. And so much easier to maintain and set up.  Also; if I ever win the lotto, a Cosworth bolts right in. Same block as the very simple production Ford that is the normal powerplant

 

Greg in Canada

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Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Years ago as a student I was one of a group of four that pooled our resources in order to do something similar. A much simpler car than a BMW, a Bug Eye Sprite. But locally a very competitive class.  The owner of the car was a mechanical engineering student, his younger brother a mechanical engineering tech. student, I was a marine engineering student and the fourth had no technical interest but was a very good driver who was being coached by his future father in law who himself was a very experienced, very accomplished competition driver.

  It was a lot of fun, but also a lot of work developing the car. Adapting a production car is more work than many realise. Every change takes time and money, and is always a trial and error process. Usually lots of errors if you do things in a properly analytic manner.  Definitely lots of learning, but much frustration as well. Due mainly to  the vision of the mechanical engineer by the second year things really clicked in the results department as well. 

 I am older now. And retired so play money is tight. I have slowly come to the realization that an older factory built car is both better and cheaper than anything I can build myself. The mid 70's up till the late 1980's is the sweet spot for simple , affordable , safe, and capable factory cars.

 A shot of the Lola without its bodywork. It took 3 years of searching to find one that fit my very limited budget. But eventually my patience was rewarded. { Part of the low price is that the engine is out and needs a freshen up.} 

Cheaper and faster than a well prepared BMW. And so much easier to maintain and set up.  Also; if I ever win the lotto, a Cosworth bolts right in. Same block as the very simple production Ford that is the normal powerplant

 

Greg in Canada

DSC_9818.JPG

That's incredible, dude. 

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Posted (edited)

As a guy in his 29th year of Miata ownership, I've got to agree with the Miata supports above. They are fantastic cars in just about every measure, except horsepower. Another car that is interesting, that is a bit oddball is the Honda Beat. Its a JDM car that is a mid-engine roadster. Parts are obviously harder to come by then a Miata, and they are RHD, but they're also a lot of fun.

 

I think doing a track build will further your career aspirations more then a restoration. Finding a team running the 24 Hours of Lemons

 is another cheap way to get involved.

 

With regards to getting a job in racing, it's something that is definitely possible. I was fortunate enough to work in the sport for 7 years in a marketing capacity. And I started with no family connection in the sport. The best thing you can do is get involved now. Find placed you can volunteer, particularly a local race team. With a marketing degree, I worked for free on the media staff at a track on race weekends. Also, tell everyone you know what you are trying to accomplish. There is probably someone in your sphere of influence that has a connection and can make an introduction. Who you know is important. For me, it turned out someone I knew was friends with the CFO of a racing teaming. This man was nice enough to give me a tour of the garage at Indy. I stayed in touch with him and a work opportunity arose that he helped me with.

 

The last thing I'll say is that while the UK is the hub of F1, we have similar hubs in the US. Indianapolis is home to a number of race teams and Dallara, the builder of the current chassis. Charlotte, NC is the hub of NASCAR. While it's not sportscars or F1 being involved down there is another possible entree to a motorsports career.

 

Good luck in your quest.

Edited by Buick64C (see edit history)
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I have a very weight reduced and suspension modified Miata as an autocross car. It's cheap as the engine is near stock. But still relatively heavy and underpowered.  Fine for auto-x but slow on a race track. You can make it quite a bit faster for track use but at substantial cost. There is no substitute to starting out with a car several hundred pounds lighter like the Lola.

 Once I get the sports racer sorted out I have a very rough Formula Ford that will be rebuilt and will replace the Miata. Once again a major weight reduction compared to the Miata with similar H.P.   For auto - x a Porsche 914 gearbox is a cheaper alternative to a Hewland.  The adapter is a bit of an outlay but much cheaper than a auto - x suitable, modified Hewland. I always use the simplest mouse trap possible. On a tight budget I have no other choice.

 

Greg

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Posted (edited)

Gaining driving skill is easier in a slower car. You have to make the most of what you have.

 

For several years I was the scrutineer for a club that hosted driving schools and track days. Some guys buy the fastest thing they can afford, and then try to acquire the skills to drive it. That usually doesn't go well. The car is difficult to control under power, and nuance is completely lost. They learn slower and often crash.

 

Top drivers almost always started out in a slow car. Juan Manuel Fangio - 1939 Chevrolet, Michael Schumacher - go karts, Niki Lauda - VW Beetle, etc.etc.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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11 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Gaining driving skill is easier in a slower car. You have to make the most of what you have.

 

For several years I was the scrutineer for a club that hosted driving schools and track days. Some guys buy the fastest thing they can afford, and then try to acquire the skills to drive it. That usually doesn't go well. The car is difficult to control under power, and nuance is completely lost. They learn slower and often crash.

 

Top drivers almost always started out in a slow car. Juan Manuel Fangio - 1939 Chevrolet, Michael Schumacher - go karts, Niki Lauda - VW Beetle, etc.etc.

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more. 45 years in the game and a 120 HP car is a perfect fit with my budget and driving ability.

 

Greg

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:04 PM, Mister Monaco said:

Hi guys, I'm Vincent, currently a freshman in high school. I absolutely LOVE automobiles, and I hope to one day work for a Formula One team. (Preferably McLaren or Mercedes). I'd like to restore a vintage sports car, but being a high schooler, I am on a quite limited budget. I have access to all the equipment and tools I need. I love vintage sports cars, and I'd like a car that I could find unrestored for less than 5K. Thanks guys!

 

Sent you a PM about a possible car on Long Island

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Charlotte being about midway between Road Atlanta and Virginia International Raceway means there's more sportscar stuff going on  there than you might think. UNC-Charlotte engineering college fielded a Formula car with quite a bit of success. One of our Olds Club families' sons was involved with that and ended up working for Michelin.

 

Youngun', you missed a blowout at VIR this past weekend. IMSA racing from Thurs-Sun. Plenty of factory teams there.

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