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Gen 1 Disc conversion and later rims with orig covers


BulldogDriver

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As my nature is to improve a “driver” I’m looking at doing the disc conversion using Scarebird. Questions:

 

1. Any reason not to use the 65 rotors if I go to later model 15x6 rims?

2. Will later model rims allow me to use my original wire wheel covers? My rims are worn rather badly at the lug nut holes.

3.  Have spacers on the rear rims been a problem? I plan on driving this car all over the country at highway speeds and want it to be reliable. 

4. Would using a later model brake booster be a wise decision?

 

Thanks

Ray

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The 65 did not have rotors.  The 65 is a drum / drum car.

Most any wheel 65 or later should work with the original wheel covers.

Shouldn't be any need for spacers in the rear. What led you to believe otherwise?

It will be mandatory to use a different master cylinder.  You'll need a master cylinder designed for a disk/drum system!

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1. 65 rotors referred to the ones listed in the instructions from Scarebird. The ones used on 71-76 Rivieras.Napa #85537.

 

2. Spacers question was because when I had to deglaze rear brakes in Arkansas on the trip home. Rim’s center hole fitted tight to the axles.

 

3. I know about the M/C. Was asking about upgrading to a later booster and is it necessary or worth worrying about. Thought I read something about doing this in one of the many posts I have read researching on the conversion.

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I still don't understand the reference to 1965 rotors.  Rotors are part of a disk brake systeml. 1965 Rivieras did not have disk brakes?  They could not have had rotors.

 

What does the Scarebird instruction sheet state word for word? 

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It was in this discussion that the rotors are referenced. My concern was whether there is a reason to not use the rotors specified for a 65 car on my 63. I would think the rotor difference pertains to the rim’s hub diameter between 63-64 and 65. I would also think that choice of rims are greater for 65 and later to replace the ones on my car. Lug nut holes are worn on my rims. I believe the spindles are the same on 63 - 65 cars. That being the case, and if 63 wheel covers are able to be used on 65 and later rims, for my usage the 65 kit is a better fit. 

 

 

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The spindles are not the same on the 3 different years of first generation rivieras.

I had to replace one spindle on my ‘63 and learned it the hard way.

I was also the first to buy an Australian drum to disc conversion kit, see below, and it had to be modified slightly, by the seller, to fit as it originally was developed for a ‘65.

http://www.mako.com.au/?content_destination=/ibm_bin/common/product_list_display.cfm&productID_list=187

It was the spacers on the brackets that needed to be different, rotors and everything else in the kit works fine for all first generations. I don’t know anything about the kit you are referring to.

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Even if you work out how to use the smaller diameter hub on the front, you still have the rears to consider. You can change the complete rear end, change the axles, or machine the 63 axles to the smaller center hub diameter, but you have to address the rear as well if you are trying to use the smaller wheel centers.

Edited by steelman (see edit history)
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On 8/17/2019 at 2:40 PM, KongaMan said:

It seems to be an open question as to whether a disc conversion represents a significant and worthwhile improvement to a properly maintained stock system.

For its academic. Would not discbrakes provide easier, better, stopping capability to the car.

i have a 63 Riv I believe the stock brake system to be very well maintained and in good repair and it stops the car. It seems the power disc brakes I have in my drivers stop the vehicle better.

turbinator

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                  My 65 Riviera with the stock drum system has the best stopping power of all of the  vehicles I own, including the late model ones.

To improve on them the disc brakes would have to be gigantic like on the new Corvettes and Shelby Mustangs. Early Rivieras have magnificent

stopping power the way they left the factory. The old cliche "it will stop on a dime and give you nine cents change" applies here. What also applies is the

old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

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I'm considering going to disc on my 64. Possibly 4 wheel disc. My drums are in good shape, but I plan on using the car as a daily driver, and i'm concerned about being able to find replacements. 

 

I previously owned a 67 mustang with drums. In cool, nice weather, they were great. After a lot of traffic driving, I could feel the fading, I had to start planning stops. In rain, they were almost worthless until 3 or 4 strokes. I converted that car to disc, and all those issues were gone. I never had heat fade (I had issues with cold, but that was due to performance pads), and they handled rain just fine. The biggest change was panic stops. I had much quicker stopping distances and response. Around here, many surface streets are 60mph, with idiots randomly pulling out in front of you. Good brakes are important. 

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7 hours ago, jsgun said:

I'm considering going to disc on my 64. Possibly 4 wheel disc. My drums are in good shape, but I plan on using the car as a daily driver, and i'm concerned about being able to find replacements. 

 

I previously owned a 67 mustang with drums. In cool, nice weather, they were great. After a lot of traffic driving, I could feel the fading, I had to start planning stops. In rain, they were almost worthless until 3 or 4 strokes. I converted that car to disc, and all those issues were gone. I never had heat fade (I had issues with cold, but that was due to performance pads), and they handled rain just fine. The biggest change was panic stops. I had much quicker stopping distances and response. Around here, many surface streets are 60mph, with idiots randomly pulling out in front of you. Good brakes are important. 

My 63 was my daily driver from 1982 through 1997.  I drove it to and from home to work on Interstate 35 every day in every season - heat, cold, wet, dry, you name it.  All sorts of typical drivers in a hurry, changing lanes etc. without regard to others on the road.  Never had a problem with the brakes and I needed them often.  

 

The Riviera has 12" x 2-1/2" finned aluminum power drums on the front.  Your Mustang ha 10" x 1-1/2" iron drums on the front.  No comparison even; considering weight difference.  

 

Replacements are no problem.  You should be able to get 150K out of them easily.  If you do run out of iron liner in the aluminum drum, they can be relined.  Unless you're doing it for bling behind some 17" chrome spoked rims, you're just spending extra money.  Have you checked to see if your wheels will fit over the disk brake caliper?

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I have 4 wheel disk brakes and love it. Our shop ended up parking out a C5 Corvette and I snagged the front calipers off that - I’ll be grabbing a set of universal brackets to weld onto my scarebird brackets. Im mainly doing it for the look but can’t imagine it not help slow the car down even more. My car never ran with drums so I can’t answer that.

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On 8/27/2019 at 7:30 AM, RivNut said:

...

The Riviera has 12" x 2-1/2" finned aluminum power drums on the front.  Your Mustang ha 10" x 1-1/2" iron drums on the front.  No comparison even; considering weight difference.  

... Have you checked to see if your wheels will fit over the disk brake caliper?

The mustang clocked in around 3200 to 3400, the Riv at about 4000. I think weight factors in quite a bit. FWIW, the front drums were 10x2, the rear 10x1 1/2. I'd have to lose the Wildcat wheels, but the mags I have will clear disc calipers. Especially the single piston GM.  

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On 8/27/2019 at 9:19 AM, sixxer said:

I have 4 wheel disk brakes and love it. Our shop ended up parking out a C5 Corvette and I snagged the front calipers off that - I’ll be grabbing a set of universal brackets to weld onto my scarebird brackets. Im mainly doing it for the look but can’t imagine it not help slow the car down even more. My car never ran with drums so I can’t answer that.

 

Are you running scarebird kits on the front and rear? What master cylinder are you using? 

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  • 3 weeks later...

So today I had some time to check the front wheel bearings and brakes after the trip cross country and  was greatly surprised to find the rims on the front are NOS and in perfect shape! I was going to hunt down a newer set of rims from a Chevy Astro van but now would like to see if a pair of original rims in good shape can be sourced. 

 

Who would be a good contact to talk to? I have read the trouble others have had looking for good rims.

 

 

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12 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

So today I had some time to check the front wheel bearings and brakes after the trip cross country and  was greatly surprised to find the rims on the front are NOS and in perfect shape! I was going to hunt down a newer set of rims from a Chevy Astro van but now would like to see if a pair of original rims in good shape can be sourced. 

 

Who would be a good contact to talk to? I have read the trouble others have had looking for good rims.

 

 

It would help if we knew in which part of the country you lived.  It makes it easier to guide you in the right direction.  

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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I’m in the Raliegh NC area.

 

Doesn't matter were the rims are at as long as I can get them. I just drove up to Lake Superior to get a Positrac rearend for the car. Thank you Scott!

 

I need to verify but I’m fairly sure the two NOS on the front are 6” rims. Just went outside and checked, the spare rim is new. It has a new 215 tire mounted on it but the ones on the ground are 235’s. The rims on the rear are pretty bad so I was going off the assumption that the fronts were shot also. I’ve been waiting for new springs, shocks, etc to get delivered before making the effort of tearing everything down. My reason for not knowing everything about the everything. 

 

Over the winter I’m going to go through all of the suspension, brakes, and drivetrain to take care of anything that needs to addressed. The brake lines are original and I’m replacing them along with an upgrade to dual circuit master and front discs. It looks like the previous owner did everything needed 20 years ago but I’ve noticed some rubber bits that have deteriorated over the years. All suspension parts will be brought back to ‘as new’ so I don’t need to do this again later. Getting too old to keep messing with this stuff!

 

Does anyone have a 6” rim that  they can measure the distance from outer rim to outer rim? I know that is not the true measurement of the rim but it will give me a measurement without taking a tire off the rim. 

 

Another thing I've noticed is the lug nuts on the front are new and the ones on the back are old. What it the correct type of lug nut for steel rims? From memory when I did the deglaze and adjustment  of the rears on the trip from California, they seem to be ‘small’ compared to the fronts. I didn’t pull the wheel covers off to verify this, don’t want to keep pulling parts off, will do it all at one time.

 

Thanks for everyone’s help. I forgot how much fun it was to own one of these Gen 1’s! The two 65’s I had back in the late 70’s were my cars and I promised myself I’d get another one someday after losing them in a fire.  My Dad and I always had a few old cars to mess around with. He was a Cadillac guy and I was a Buick guy. Got away from cars after the fire and went into airplanes. Bought a 36 Cadillac Fleetwood 4 years ago but it doesn't get the juices flowing for me. It’s for sale.

 

Ray

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Thanks Ed. The lefthand lugs are going to be replaced with righthand ones front and back. I remember you did an article on the rims a while back. Did you post the outside dimensions on the rims? Cant remember seeing that in the post.

 

I ran the car back home on the Uniroyal Tigerpaws that were on it. They looked new and as the car sat inside the entire 17 years before I bought it,  I took a chance with them. Checked them every gas stop and I’m going to replace all 5 with something in the 70 ratio profile. I don't want to mess with them till I take everything apart is why I’m looking for the measurement. 

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1 hour ago, BulldogDriver said:

I’m in the Raliegh NC area.

 

Doesn't matter were the rims are at as long as I can get them. I just drove up to Lake Superior to get a Positrac rearend for the car. Thank you Scott!

 

I need to verify but I’m fairly sure the two NOS on the front are 6” rims. Just went outside and checked, the spare rim is new. It has a new 215 tire mounted on it but the ones on the ground are 235’s. The rims on the rear are pretty bad so I was going off the assumption that the fronts were shot also. I’ve been waiting for new springs, shocks, etc to get delivered before making the effort of tearing everything down. My reason for not knowing everything about the everything. 

 

Over the winter I’m going to go through all of the suspension, brakes, and drivetrain to take care of anything that needs to addressed. The brake lines are original and I’m replacing them along with an upgrade to dual circuit master and front discs. It looks like the previous owner did everything needed 20 years ago but I’ve noticed some rubber bits that have deteriorated over the years. All suspension parts will be brought back to ‘as new’ so I don’t need to do this again later. Getting too old to keep messing with this stuff!

 

Does anyone have a 6” rim that  they can measure the distance from outer rim to outer rim? I know that is not the true measurement of the rim but it will give me a measurement without taking a tire off the rim. 

 

Another thing I've noticed is the lug nuts on the front are new and the ones on the back are old. What it the correct type of lug nut for steel rims? From memory when I did the deglaze and adjustment  of the rears on the trip from California, they seem to be ‘small’ compared to the fronts. I didn’t pull the wheel covers off to verify this, don’t want to keep pulling parts off, will do it all at one time.

 

Thanks for everyone’s help. I forgot how much fun it was to own one of these Gen 1’s! The two 65’s I had back in the late 70’s were my cars and I promised myself I’d get another one someday after losing them in a fire.  My Dad and I always had a few old cars to mess around with. He was a Cadillac guy and I was a Buick guy. Got away from cars after the fire and went into airplanes. Bought a 36 Cadillac Fleetwood 4 years ago but it doesn't get the juices flowing for me. It’s for sale.

 

Ray

 

I have those measurements but, can't go digging right now. I can look later if you would like. I do know that the outside diameter measurement of the 6" is either 1/8" or 1/4" larger than the 5 1/2" rim. Let me know if you need /want the exact measurements.

 

Bill

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After my previous post I got to thinking about what you're trying to do.  Here's an idea you can consider or just ignore.  If I understand what you're trying to do, this should work for you.  You want to run disk brakes. You want wider wheels, you want to stick with 15" wheels so you can use your stock wheel covers.  Here's my thoughts:

Find some 15" x 7" five bolt rally wheels from a Chevy pickup truck.  Same bolt pattern - the truck came with disk brakes from the factory, and because the rally wheels came with trim rings, your wheel covers will fit.  A gentleman from Washington runs Chevy rally wheels on his 1st generation Riviera, complete with the trim rings and some custom poverty type caps.  Finding some Chevy truck wheels will be a lot easier than findind some Buick wheels.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

The disc conversion from Tony G works with stock 63 Rivi rims. Now that I know I have 3 good rims that look to be 6”, the hunt is on for 2 more. I want to keep the original covers on the car. I’ll check the eBay guy out. Thanks

I would be surprised that stock `63 rims will provide enough clearance for a brake caliper??

Tom

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26 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

I would be surprised that stock `63 rims will provide enough clearance for a brake caliper??

Tom

Tom,

I installed the complete kit on my ‘63 with stock rim. This is the international version where you need to source some parts yourself but in the end it will be the same as I have. Only for the front.

http://mako.com.au/ibm_bin/common/product_list_display.cfm?productID_list=193

 

Edited by SwedeDownUnderR63 (see edit history)
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On 8/17/2019 at 2:40 PM, KongaMan said:

It seems to be an open question as to whether a disc conversion represents a significant and worthwhile improvement to a properly maintained stock system.

Mr KongaMan, I paid to have the brake booster rebuilt, new brake lines installed throughout, new wheel cylinders, wheel bearing packed, shoes inspected, new dual master cylinder put in my 63 Riviera. When I’m not working on my AC I try to keep the car properly maintained. I remember my brake pedal traveling too far to the floor when I want to stop. I checked my brake fluid and low and behold the front reservoir was 1/2 full and the rear reservoir was 3/4 full. Huh?

i pulled the brake cylinder away from the brake booster and no dampness or moisture present. Now I’ve got to pull my tires off and take off the brake drum to find the leak. The brake job was done 3 years ago and I’ve put on almost 4000 miles since then. Seems premature for a leak check. I wonder if the the reliability of the disc brakes is better?

Turbinator

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Turb,

Is it possible that when the master cylinder was swapped, that the brakes weren't bled properly And some trapped air finally escaped?  Fill up the reservoirs and drive it some, tben check the levels again.  You might not have to go through all of what you mention.  If you paid to have the brakes redone, take it back to the shop that did it.  Make them find the cause of the leak, if there is one.  It should be their responsibility to make it correct, not yours.

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On 8/26/2019 at 10:34 AM, Seafoam65 said:

                  My 65 Riviera with the stock drum system has the best stopping power of all of the  vehicles I own, including the late model ones.

To improve on them the disc brakes would have to be gigantic like on the new Corvettes and Shelby Mustangs. Early Rivieras have magnificent

stopping power the way they left the factory. The old cliche "it will stop on a dime and give you nine cents change" applies here. What also applies is the

old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

Winston, makes plenty sense. When I’m not working on my AC I maintain my Riviera. I read this thread and then checked my brake fluid. My brake has been soft so I thought the pedal feel not quite right. Tom Telesco suggestedI check for leaks at the brake master cylinder and the wheel cylinders. I had ALL new brake system installed 3 years ago. So, I’ve driven 4000 miles in 3 years and I’ve got a leaky wheel cylinder?

Turbinator

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6 hours ago, RivNut said:

Turb,

Is it possible that when the master cylinder was swapped, that the brakes weren't bled properly And some trapped air finally escaped?  Fill up the reservoirs and drive it some, tben check the levels again.  You might not have to go through all of what you mention.  If you paid to have the brakes redone, take it back to the shop that did it.  Make them find the cause of the leak, if there is one.  It should be their responsibility to make it correct, not yours.

Ed, thanks for the tip. I have all my receipts. I’ll fill the reservoir with Dot5 level fluid and drive. Thanks again for your help.

Turbinator

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7 hours ago, RivNut said:

Turb,

Is it possible that when the master cylinder was swapped, that the brakes weren't bled properly And some trapped air finally escaped?  Fill up the reservoirs and drive it some, tben check the levels again.  You might not have to go through all of what you mention.  If you paid to have the brakes redone, take it back to the shop that did it.  Make them find the cause of the leak, if there is one.  It should be their responsibility to make it correct, not yours.

Concur.  Bleeding the master prior to installation is a step that is often overlooked or given short shrift.  If you have air in the master you will see exactly these symptoms: soft pedal and dropping fluid level in the absence of any noticeable leaks.  Or you could be leaking into your booster. ;) 

Edited by KongaMan (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Ed, thanks for the tip. I have all my receipts. I’ll fill the reservoir with Dot5 level fluid and drive. Thanks again for your help.

Turbinator

Check with others before you add fluids.  If you have DOT3 in there now is it feasible to add DOT 5 to it?  I don't know but someone will. 

Oh yeah, on 63's it's been known that you can find brake fluid in the big vacuum reservoir on the inner fender. Check there.

 

 

Edited by RivNut
Oh yeah (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, RivNut said:

Check with others before you add fluids.  If you have DOT3 in there now is it feasible to add DOT 5 to it?  I don't know but someone will. 

Oh yeah, on 63's it's been known that you can find brake fluid in the big vacuum reservoir on the inner fender. Check there.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, telriv said:

Dot 3 or 4 fluid should NEVER be mixed with dot 5.

 

8 hours ago, RivNut said:

Check with others before you add fluids.  If you have DOT3 in there now is it feasible to add DOT 5 to it?  I don't know but someone will. 

Oh yeah, on 63's it's been known that you can find brake fluid in the big vacuum reservoir on the inner fender. Check there.

 

 

Ed, the shop that did the brake work was the same outfit that neglected to put the washer on the crank snout when a new cam was put in. The nut flew off the crank snout and punched a hole in the timing chain cover. 

Ill have to get a helper to bleed the brake lines.

Turbinator

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3 hours ago, Turbinator said:

 

 

Ed, the shop that did the brake work was the same outfit that neglected to put the washer on the crank snout when a new cam was put in. The nut flew off the crank snout and punched a hole in the timing chain cover. 

Ill have to get a helper to bleed the brake lines.

Turbinator

Lesson learned the hard way 101.  😕

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If you are uncertain of the brake fluid type in a car bleed a small sample from a wheel cylinder, not the reservoir, and put it in a shallow dish. Add a few drops of water. If it is mineral based, DOT3, the water and fluid will mix and appear milky. If it is silicone based, DOT5, the water will bead up and bounce off the sample.

 

Even if someone has told you the type of fluid in a newly acquired car do the test on your first brake service.

 

Bernie

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