1940 instrument panel engine turning

[Grant Z]

Well this makes excellent sense to me and very close to an idea I shared with Neil Morse some time ago. Being a Fitter & Turner (specializing in Toolmaking) by trade, I suspected that there was just 1 panel (without a separate thin layer) which would have been engine turned before being pressed into shape (glove box & instrument panel). I also wondered if there was another thin layer (as there is indeed), this could have been a zinc plating (or something similar) applied to the panel before stamping. Oh well, I was on the right track. The decal idea just didn't sit with me (not that I am any type of authority). Sincere thanks all you guys.

[Glassesguy]

Grant: Your initial post had started me thinking about this again. Posts by Matt, Neil, and Lawrence then pushed me to check out my Bugle collection for the article. Looks like you were on the right track on this.

[Grant Z]

Cheers

[Grant Z]

Would an adhesive have been used on the sheet of cold rolled steel or was it simply pressed with the main steel sheet and folded over with tooling dies?

[1940Super]

Is there a misconception of calling it "engine turning"?

The term derives from the Rose Engine machine or that it started off on the engine cowls of aeroplanes? 

Anyone heard the term "spottng" before? I hadn't until I saw this webpage: https://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/engine-turning-vs-spotting/index.html

[Matt Harwood]

We were on a car tour in Canada a few weeks ago and one of the stops was a brewery where I saw these lovely engine-turned storage tanks that hold (I think he said) 20,000 bottles' worth of beer...

 

Probably the same technique used on the Buick dashboards--a large, flat piece of sheet stainless on a machine with multiple turning heads and some kind of feed table to move the sheet 1/2 radius down and 1/2 radius to the left or right as each row is completed. Probably not a difficult or complicated system to set up beyond configuring it to get the results you need.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Glassesguy]

On 9/4/2019 at 3:28 AM, Grant Z said:

Would an adhesive have been used on the sheet of cold rolled steel or was it simply pressed with the main steel sheet and folded over with tooling dies?

Looks to be folded over judging by pictures posted by Matt.

[FLYER15015]

You can now buy "engine turned" vinyl on Amazon in 24" rolls for about 25 dollars in silver and gold colours (for our northern neighbors).

Might be  a bit garish, but maybe some yellowish spar varnish would tone it down.

Better than a carbon fiber "wrap" for your dash.

Just don't take it to Pebble Beach.

 

Mike in Colorado

[Grant Z]

Thanks but I'd rather try doing the real thing one day on my dash.

[valk]

Doesn't look too bad, would be nice to see what it looks like on a panel. Let's see, $25 vs $1000 (I'm guessing) for a re-do. Certainly worth a shot...

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rwraps-Metal-Vinyl-Decal-Engine/dp/B016P9BXZK/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=engine+turned+vinyl&qid=1576678478&sr=8-3

 

https://www.amazon.com/Engine-Vinyl-Sheet-Simple-Curve/dp/B0057YJOBK/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=engine+turned+vinyl&qid=1576678478&sr=8-4

 

Peter

[1940Super]

17 hours ago, valk said:

Doesn't look too bad, would be nice to see what it looks like on a panel. Let's see, $25 vs $1000 (I'm guessing) for a re-do. Certainly worth a shot...

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rwraps-Metal-Vinyl-Decal-Engine/dp/B016P9BXZK/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=engine+turned+vinyl&qid=1576678478&sr=8-3

 

https://www.amazon.com/Engine-Vinyl-Sheet-Simple-Curve/dp/B0057YJOBK/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=engine+turned+vinyl&qid=1576678478&sr=8-4

 

Peter

The 2nd link looks better. It's good that they turning is staggered diagonally like the original. I think adding a tinted yellow laquer (said to have been done by Buick) over the top of the vinyl and it could look promising. 

Shipping my panels to the US to have them professionly done is too costly for me, I was going to simply clean and polish them but I'm likely to buy one of these rolls now and see how it goes. 

[Matt Harwood]

The vinyl isn't a bad alternative if you're on a budget--I think I'd prefer it to paint, which always looks wrong. It's hard to tell what size the circles are; the first says the circles are 1/8" which is much too small, and I thought I saw somewhere on the second one that they're 3/4" but now I can't find it again. That's too big. The originals look about 3/8" to my eye, maybe even 1/2" but it's hard to get a good look with the way they overlap.

 

I have an all-original '41 Super here. I'll go out and try to measure the circles on it later today.

[valk]

40Super, I hope you give it a try. Would love to see how it turns out. I forsee some difficulty with the sharper curves of the panel but maybe this can be finessed.  I'd give it a try but my panels are presentable and I don't have a spare to experiment. Good Luck!

[Grant Z]

21 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The vinyl isn't a bad alternative if you're on a budget--I think I'd prefer it to paint, which always looks wrong. It's hard to tell what size the circles are; the first says the circles are 1/8" which is much too small, and I thought I saw somewhere on the second one that they're 3/4" but now I can't find it again. That's too big. The originals look about 3/8" to my eye, maybe even 1/2" but it's hard to get a good look with the way they overlap.

 

I have an all-original '41 Super here. I'll go out and try to measure the circles on it later today.

Thanks Matt,

 

some time ago Neil Morse kindly provided me with a photo of his glove box lid with a small ruler laid on it so I could measure the circles. They are 3/8" in diameter. I'm keen to see what yours measure.

[1940Super]

I measured mine, I think it's closer to 7/16". As Matt said it's difficult to measure with the overlap but placed drill bits over the circle to see which was the closest.

[FLYER15015]

Quote

 

 

6 hours ago, 1940Super said:

I measured mine, I think it's closer to 7/16". As Matt said it's difficult to measure with the overlap but placed drill bits over the circle to see which was the closest.

 

 

D= 2 X R

 

And,    Pie   R   round

Edited December 20, 2019 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

OK, finally found a few moments to go out in the shop to get some photos of the dash on that all-original '41 Super. Michael finally got it all buffed and cleaned up really brought out a good shine in the paint. It's really handsome and I like the Chenanga Gray more and more, especially with the red wheels and interior. Someone's going to get a really nice tour car.

 

 

Here are shots of the dash panels which clearly shows the pattern, layout and the fact that they do have a slight gold tint to them. Surely some of this is due to age, but I think it reinforces the idea that these probably had a little color in the clear, probably yellow or green depending on the color of the car.

 

 

 

Here are some close-ups of the pattern with a measuring tape so you can see the approximate size of the circles themselves. I have to admit this surface is VERY hard to photograph because when you get up close, you can't really even see the circles--it's just a dizzying pattern. I just took a bunch of photos and hoped one would give me what we wanted and managed to get one good one where the markings and edges of the circles aligned enough to make a reasonable measurement. I added red arrows to show what I believe to be the radius of one of the circles and it certainly appears to be 3/16. That strongly suggests that the circles are 3/8 in diameter, but 7/16 would probably be acceptable given the inherent uncertainty of the measurement.

 

 

 

Hope this helps!

[FLYER15015]

Also notice that there is only about a 25% overlap as you go across from left to right, but there is about a 40% overlap as you move up the panel.

Just the right spacing so that you don't see any blank panel.

Sure would like to see the machinery used to mass produce sheets of this back in the '40's.

Today a CNC mill would have no problem replicating the pattern, but I wonder what the old tool looked like, since it had to do thousands of hits, and stay consistent.

 

Mike in Colorado

[1940Super]

12 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

 

 

 

D= 2 X R

 

And,    Pie   R   round

The inner rings of what is left of the engine turning on my panels are not visible to naked eye, as demonstrated at the beginning of this thread. I'd be guessing where the center is

[FLYER15015]

If you look at Matt's second picture, with the close up of the tape, you can count 6 each 1/32" marks, so..........

6/32nds = 3/16ths x 2 = 3/8" dia. tool to make each swirl.

If you work on OLD Buicks and Chryslers, you begin to notice that you only need a hand full of wrenches.

1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, pretty much does it.

Back then, Detroit was not into 15/32, 11/16/ 23/32 stuff.

They tended to keep it simple, especially with the war coming, they needed to make a LOT of stuff, and it pretty much got "standardized".

 

SO...... by using that logic, I agree with Matt that the swirl tool was 3/8" in diameter.

But I would still like to see the machine that produced these sheets in such volume.

[Grant Z]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:19 PM, FLYER15015 said:

Also notice that there is only about a 25% overlap as you go across from left to right, but there is about a 40% overlap as you move up the panel.

Just the right spacing so that you don't see any blank panel.

Sure would like to see the machinery used to mass produce sheets of this back in the '40's.

Today a CNC mill would have no problem replicating the pattern, but I wonder what the old tool looked like, since it had to do thousands of hits, and stay consistent.

 

Mike in Colorado

Good information thanks Mike.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Grant Z (see edit history)

[Grant Z]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:08 AM, Matt Harwood said:

OK, finally found a few moments to go out in the shop to get some photos of the dash on that all-original '41 Super. Michael finally got it all buffed and cleaned up really brought out a good shine in the paint. It's really handsome and I like the Chenanga Gray more and more, especially with the red wheels and interior. Someone's going to get a really nice tour car.

 

 

Here are shots of the dash panels which clearly shows the pattern, layout and the fact that they do have a slight gold tint to them. Surely some of this is due to age, but I think it reinforces the idea that these probably had a little color in the clear, probably yellow or green depending on the color of the car.

 

 

 

Here are some close-ups of the pattern with a measuring tape so you can see the approximate size of the circles themselves. I have to admit this surface is VERY hard to photograph because when you get up close, you can't really even see the circles--it's just a dizzying pattern. I just took a bunch of photos and hoped one would give me what we wanted and managed to get one good one where the markings and edges of the circles aligned enough to make a reasonable measurement. I added red arrows to show what I believe to be the radius of one of the circles and it certainly appears to be 3/16. That strongly suggests that the circles are 3/8 in diameter, but 7/16 would probably be acceptable given the inherent uncertainty of the measurement.

 

 

 

Hope this helps!

Many thanks Matt for taking the time to do this.

 

Below is the photo Neil Morse kindly sent me with a small ruler for dimensions. This is of his original (unrestored) dash. I've put the image into Microsoft Visio (drawing program) and carefully calculated the diameter of several circles to get an average and I've come up with circles which are .009" larger than 3/8". So allowing from some error, it's hard to argue with 3/8" being the diameter. Matt & Mike both seem to agree with this so it seems very reasonable assume this is the size.

[1940Super]

On 12/20/2019 at 1:26 AM, Matt Harwood said:

The vinyl isn't a bad alternative if you're on a budget--I think I'd prefer it to paint, which always looks wrong. It's hard to tell what size the circles are; the first says the circles are 1/8" which is much too small, and I thought I saw somewhere on the second one that they're 3/4" but now I can't find it again. That's too big. The originals look about 3/8" to my eye, maybe even 1/2" but it's hard to get a good look with the way they overlap.

 

I have an all-original '41 Super here. I'll go out and try to measure the circles on it later today.

I tried to look for the size on the first one, could you point out where it says 1/8. The 2nd definitely looks too big.

[1940Super]

On 12/22/2019 at 3:09 AM, FLYER15015 said:

If you look at Matt's second picture, with the close up of the tape, you can count 6 each 1/32" marks, so..........

6/32nds = 3/16ths x 2 = 3/8" dia. tool to make each swirl.

If you work on OLD Buicks and Chryslers, you begin to notice that you only need a hand full of wrenches.

1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, pretty much does it.

Back then, Detroit was not into 15/32, 11/16/ 23/32 stuff.

They tended to keep it simple, especially with the war coming, they needed to make a LOT of stuff, and it pretty much got "standardized".

 

SO...... by using that logic, I agree with Matt that the swirl tool was 3/8" in diameter.

But I would still like to see the machine that produced these sheets in such volume.

I agree that the size used for 1941 instrument panels are 3/8" or close to it. I can see that clearly in Matt's picture. 

 

I mentioned the size of the swirls on my panels are close to 7/16" which is a standard size. For example Buick used that size for bolts on cylinder head, connecting rods, lower control arm shaft, shock absorber to axel. 

 

 

I managed to get a couple of good shots of my 1940 panel next to a ruler.

Looks to me each swirl is around 5.75mm radius. Diameter being 11.5mm. 7/16" converted to mm is 11.1125. If the emery brushes were exactly 7/16" in size the larger swirl diameter would probably be because of expansion upon contact of the brush to the surface. 

 

So why would there be 2 different sizes used between 1940 and 1941? After more research I'm led to believe that 2 separate companies manufactured the panels for Buick and they changed from one to the other. It's not just the size that's different. The swirls are pressed in opposite directions and upon close-up photos the swirls appear to be much neater circles on the 1941 Buicks. 

 

If I can find engine turned vinyl between 3/8" and 1/2" will be close enough.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

17 hours ago, 1940Super said:

I tried to look for the size on the first one, could you point out where it says 1/8. The 2nd definitely looks too big.

 

I had to look down in the Q&A area lower in the listing to find details (sorry about the wonky formatting, it's just a cut and paste):

 

Question:

What diameter is the turned circles?

:

 

 

 

Answer The circles are .125" or 1/8 " in diameter. Looks close to the pattern used on 1962-1965 Chevy Impala. Looks great to me.
Thanks.
By ptu on June 28, 2018

[FLYER15015]

Boy, you should see the You tube videos of guys doing engine turning.

Apparently "Eastwood" sells the medium, that you put in your drill press in several diameters.

I even watched an old oxy acetylene  cutting table (X-Y plotter) with an air grinder in place of the torch, knocking out a 4' x8' sheet of aluminum with a 2" disk, one hit at a time.

Noisy and slow. Too slow for Detroit to even consider, even back in the '40's.

 

Mike in Colorado 

[valk]

I came across this - looks like great work to me. 

 

http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/et/et.htm

 

 

[valk]

I emailed the guy above and he said he's done about 15 or so late 30's/early 40's Buick dash panels over the years. The price is very reasonable at around $300 for both BUT one must have the panels 'double" chromed first, ie., dipped twice, which is costly.  His website shows stunning work on incredibly valuable cars. 

Peter

[kgreen]

18 hours ago, valk said:

I emailed the guy above and he said he's done about 15 or so late 30's/early 40's Buick dash panels over the years. The price is very reasonable at around $300 for both BUT one must have the panels 'double" chromed first, ie., dipped twice, which is costly.  His website shows stunning work on incredibly valuable cars. 

Peter

I had contacted Eamon last fall and he indicated that he would do engine turning on freshly polished metal, fresh nickel or chrome.  He further indicated that he does not do the polishing.  I was getting underway with Skip on my dash panels who also required that I have the panels polished before he would do his work.  

 

I polished my panels, first practicing on unuseable panels that had been dented or had a start button hole drilled into the panel.  The first panel took about 4 hours.  After getting the knack of the effort, the last panel took just under two hours.  I used WD 40 for the wet process so that I could maintain rust protection.

Set up:

 

I used a disk sander to remove the old finish.  That was not a good idea as the scratches were too deep to polish out.  I switched to a palm sander using 120 grit through 400 grit, then by-hand for the rest of the sequence.

 

After 220 grit:

 

Results after 220 grit:

 

 

400 grit, still needs more effort:

 

final effort after 2000 grit:

 

The swipe marks are from the oil.  I haven't photographed Skips engine turning, but it was beautiful and authentic.

 

 

[valk]

Ok who is Skip? Bill Anderson told me a few months ago he is working with another guy (Skip?) to determine and replicate the original finish which perportedly has a green tint to it but no word on his progress. 

[kgreen]

2 hours ago, valk said:

Ok who is Skip? Bill Anderson told me a few months ago he is working with another guy (Skip?) to determine and replicate the original finish which perportedly has a green tint to it but no word on his progress. 

Skip is:

 

BOYERS RESTORATIONS 

1348 CARLISLE PIKE 

HANOVER, PA 17331

717.632.0670

 

He is also very active as a vendor at Hershey (I hear).

 

Ken

[Grant Z]

18 hours ago, kgreen said:

I had contacted Eamon last fall and he indicated that he would do engine turning on freshly polished metal, fresh nickel or chrome.  He further indicated that he does not do the polishing.  I was getting underway with Skip on my dash panels who also required that I have the panels polished before he would do his work.  

 

I polished my panels, first practicing on unuseable panels that had been dented or had a start button hole drilled into the panel.  The first panel took about 4 hours.  After getting the knack of the effort, the last panel took just under two hours.  I used WD 40 for the wet process so that I could maintain rust protection.

Set up:

 

I used a disk sander to remove the old finish.  That was not a good idea as the scratches were too deep to polish out.  I switched to a palm sander using 120 grit through 400 grit, then by-hand for the rest of the sequence.

 

After 220 grit:

 

Results after 220 grit:

 

 

400 grit, still needs more effort:

 

final effort after 2000 grit:

 

The swipe marks are from the oil.  I haven't photographed Skips engine turning, but it was beautiful and authentic.

 

 

Great photos and preparation for the engine turning. I'm afraid as my car is on the road, I couldn't stand taking if off the road to polish both panels, then send them to the USA (freight is horrendous) plus the cost of the work (Australian dollar is just as horrendous against the US$ at the moment (.66c). I'm having too much fun driving my car. In 4 days time I'm going on a 1200+ mile vacation along (wife can't come), interstate to visit several car friends and attend a large car event. I will take around 12 days to do this and cannot wait.

[valk]

So I am aware of 3 potential sources of engine-turning capabilities: Eamonn Keogh, Boyer's Restoration (Skip), and Doug Seybold. Would be great to source examples of each to compare - regrettably, I can't help.  I believe all 3 of these gentlemen produce very high quality work but it would be interesting to see which is closest to original in terms of swirl size, tint, finish, etc. 

Peter

[neil morse]

Peter, as I recall the photos you posted of your car, the panels looked as though they already had been refinished.  Is this not the case?  

[valk]

Hi neil

The driver side panel i believe is original and in good condition with just a few finish cracks around the Speedo. The other panel was a redo and while it looks at a glance like it’s right, it clearly isn’t. Not a high priority but I’d like to redo both down the line. My current concern is a damn oil leak at the rear seal. I don’t have lift so it’s going to be costly to fix.....

[neil morse]

Thanks for the clarification -- I thought my memory was playing tricks on me.  I wish you the best of luck with the rear main seal -- unless it's really bad, it might be better just to live with it as Matt recommended.