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Steves Buick

hidden fuel injection within a Marvel updraft ?

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The car runs well on the Marvel ( 1932 Buick 96s), However... has anyone tried to inject a straight 8 and disquise it with a Marvel? Just a thought...

I know of an aviation throttle body that might work.. 

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There are companies who sell throttle body injection systems diguised to look like carburetors. Specifically these look like Stromberg 97s, Rochester 2GCs, and Webers. These are not conversions but new throttle body castings styled to resemble a specific carb. Basically you would need to block off all the internal passages of he carb, machine out the venturi, and somehow install a mounting boss for the injector. Typically that would be hidden in the former float bowl. You'd need to figure out how to get high pressure fuel to the injector inlet. You'd need to mount a throttle position sensor, MAP sensor, and a tach pickup. You'd need to mount a high pressure fuel pump. And of course you'd need to install an ECU and wiring to control it and develop the custom fuel map for your application. Can this all be done? Sure. Is the benefit worth the effort in your case? Unlikely. Of course, that's never stopped me before...😋

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Would one of those throttle-body injection systems mind being mounted upside-down? Even though it wouldn't look exactly like the original Marvel carb, one of those systems that looks like an old Stromberg might look mostly right to anyone casually looking at it. You could hide the throttle position sensor on the back side, use one of the existing vacuum ports for the MAP sensor and you'll probably need a coolant temperature sensor as well. If you're clever, all that could be mostly hidden from view. You'd probably need an adapter of some kind between the manifold and the throttle body, but that's easy enough. One thing that might give you a problem is that I believe most of the EFI brains work on 12 volts and if I'm not mistaken, your car is 6 volts with a generator driven by a chain inside the block. Changing to 12 volts on such a car is not as cut-and-dried as on later cars with separate generators. This is often the case with modifications--one leads to another leads to another and so on. It's never easy or straightforward.

 

On the other hand, I have to agree with Joe that it's probably a great deal of work for not a lot of benefit. I like fuel injection and it seems miraculous when a car starts instantly no matter what the conditions, but a properly tuned carburetor will do the same thing. I have twice won money from guys because I bet them my 1929 Cadillac would start faster than their new Corvette/Mustang. After some fairly extensive tuning, my 1941 Buick starts within about three seconds every time, hot or cold, and idles smoothly no matter what. It takes some considerable amount of fiddling to get old cars right, which is why people get frustrated and assume they're trouble-prone, but when you do get them right they're not significantly inferior to fuel injection in terms of usability.

 

I think your idea is cool and would be a neat upgrade, but if it were me, I'd invest a smaller amount of money and maybe the same amount of time into getting the original stuff to work properly before trying to adapt fuel injection. You might be pleasantly surprised by how well it can work when it's all sorted out.

 

Oh, one other thought--perhaps flip the manifold over. My 1932 Model 97 had that modification with a Stromberg downdraft from a 1940 Buick and it was fantastic to drive with no hard start problems. It looked correct enough that most folks never gave it a second thought.

 

074.jpg

 

Hope this helps!

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Thanks, I just had the idea and maybe I'll go forward with a mock up, you're right about time and money vs reward. I have my Buick purring like a kitten at the moment, it would be fun to test new ground thats all. Thanks Matt and Joe.

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Would one of those throttle-body injection systems mind being mounted upside-down?

 

There's no reason why not. The fuel to the injector is pressurized so orientation shouldn't matter.  It turns out that there are now several vendors making throttle bodies that look like Strombergs.

 

e97-007.jpgEFI97-1.jpg

 

There's even an  SU sidedraft clone now.

 

tbi_carbs.jpg

 

 

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34 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

There's no reason why not. The fuel to the injector is pressurized so orientation shouldn't matter.  It turns out that there are now several vendors making throttle bodies that look like Strombergs.

 

e97-007.jpgEFI97-1.jpg

 

There's even an  SU sidedraft clone now.

 

tbi_carbs.jpg

 

 

 

 

Whatever you think about modified cars, that's pretty friggin' awesome!

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There have been quite a few of the pre war exotic engines converted to multi port.........and they run and race them with it.........but they are running fuel control and feedback for each cylinder. And a knock sensor also. Lots of work.......not much gain, and lots of down side.

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What would it do for power output? Are there other “systems” on the car that would require updating?

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Not much for pwr out put, but better fuel distribution and the ability to dail it in on a dyno would be a plus. 104 hp with standard head gasket, 113 hp with high compression thinner gasket. It's a hobby right? I just want to get as much reliable hp from the Ole Buick even though I drive it like an old maid! It runs like a singer now, the voice over my shoulder is shouting leave it alone!!

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On 8/13/2019 at 7:13 AM, Steves Buick said:

Not much for pwr out put, but better fuel distribution and the ability to dail it in on a dyno would be a plus. 104 hp with standard head gasket, 113 hp with high compression thinner gasket. It's a hobby right? I just want to get as much reliable hp from the Ole Buick even though I drive it like an old maid! It runs like a singer now, the voice over my shoulder is shouting leave it alone!!

 

Even if you could dial it in on a dyno then you will probably just come up against slop in another system like electrical?

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Posted (edited)

Joe

Your one photo appears to be a Zenith Carburetor, not a SU.

 

SU Carburators

1384940392_SUCarburetor.png.c6f1b6e1fbcf94c0fc646ae821ff29e7.png

 

 

Zenith-Stromberg carburetors (or as the Brits say carburetters) like the one pictured on the left were used on numerous European cars from 1967 - 1975.

zenith-carburetters.jpg

Edited by Vila (see edit history)

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4 hours ago, Vila said:

Joe

Your one photo appears to be a Zenith Carburetor, not a SU.

 

Thanks. I was only quoting the caption on the photo I saw on line. I'm certainly no expert on those carbs.

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