'41 fog light installation

[valk]

Thanks to those on this board, I have all I need to install Guide "Nighthawk" fog lamps including Bill Anderson's guide,  the Buick Service Bulletin installation instructions and Matt Harwood's write up .  What would be helpful is a picture of the bracket and splash pan on a car with lights installed so I can get an approximate location of the holes passing through the pan. I could use all the help I can get here.   

 

In the 1941 Buick Parts and Service Bulletins book I found "A tool for sawing holes in Front Bumper Back Bar Shield is now available. This tool is very rugged and durable. It cuts a hole 1 5/8" in diameter and is necessary when installing Fog Lamps on 1941 models. KMO-412 - Hole Saw - $2.90. Order direct from Hinckley-Myers Company, Jackson, Michigan"

[Guest]

Edited August 2, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[1940Super]

I have fog lights but it the wiring was never completed. Was another switch added somewhere in the instrument panel?

[valk]

Thanks Greg, very helpful.  Pressing my luck, could I get a head-on shot of your entire front end so I can see the light location and height relative to the grill and front bumper? I know I'm asking a lot, very appreciative. 

 

40Super, fog lights have their own unique switch and pullout knob which replaces the righthand "Assessory " knob. 

Peter

[Matt Harwood]

9 hours ago, 2carb40 said:

 

I like those rubber grommets. Where does one find those? I had to make mine.

[Matt Harwood]

Here are some photos of my lights as mounted, although someone in the past had already drilled the holes. I'll go out and get some measurements right now. Stand by...

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Looks like about 13.75 inches from the flat side of the splash apron to the mounting holes, and they're pretty symmetrical on my car. Maybe 4.625 or thereabouts from the base of the grille. I don't know that it has to be dead-on exact since the mounting brackets have some adjustability, and I doubt the guy mounting them in 1941 was doing any kind of exact measurements. Mine were already drilled and had some low-grade cheap lights mounted, and fortunately they worked perfectly with the new fog lights.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

 

[valk]

Man that's great - thank you guys for doing this, very much appreiated. 

 

40Super, I misspoke in that the fog light switch I described is for a '41. I don't know at all about '40s.  Sorry for the misfire. 

[neil morse]

57 minutes ago, valk said:

Pressing my luck, could I get a head-on shot of your entire front end so I can see the light location and height relative to the grill and front bumper?

 

My mounts are identical to Matt's, so I won't bother to post a pic of them, but here's a head-on shot of my car if that helps.

 

[valk]

Thanks Neil and Matt very very much. 

[kingrudy]

Very neat and clean install. Looks like it came just like that in production. 

[neil morse]

2 hours ago, kingrudy said:

Very neat and clean install. Looks like it came just like that in production. 

 

I'm not sure which photos you're talking about, Mike -- my guess is the ones posted by Greg (2Carb40) -- but for what it's worth I just got two brochures off Ebay that cover available accessories for 1941.  Fog lamps are listed as a "dealer installed" accessory rather than factory installed.  It's also interesting to see that the drawing that illustrates the "Fog and Driving Lamps" accessory shows the lamps outboard of the grill (unlike any of the three cars on this thread), and the description says, "They are mounted in the one position which adds the most to the car's appearance and does not cause interference with engine cooling."  (That price list kinda makes you want to cry, doesn't it? 😪😁.)

 

 

[FLYER15015]

You guys and your splash pans sure have it tough.

[valk]

Wow...what a great pic...I'm moving to Colorado...Man, that set up will get 'em out of the way!

[Matt Harwood]

Those are great brochures, Neil! I've seen that image of the fog lights mounted outboard and almost under the headlights, but I don't know that I've ever seen a car in person with them configured that way. I don't think it's attractive at all. I have mine rotated almost as far outboard as they'll go, so I'd have to drill new holes to get them way over there and maybe mount it to the other bumper bracket underneath. 

 

Also interesting that the copy says they're white lenses and they're round. Are there any similar brochures out there showing the squared-off yellow/white fog lights that are "supposed" to be correct?

 

From the accessories list, "special paint" is $5.13. How did they come up with that figure, I wonder?

Edited August 3, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Guest]

6-11/16" Round Guides I've read were also available for purchase in 1941. 5-3/4" round on some GMs as well. Are there any 1941 Buick publications that give more details about size and shape options?

[neil morse]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

From the accessories list, "special paint" is $5.13. How did they come up with that figure, I wonder?

 

Haha -- I believe that it was the  "two tone" paint that cost you an extra $5.13 on a Special, but that figure pops up a few more times -- for the "Chrome Window Loop Molding" on the Special, and the "Foamex Cushions" on the Models 44 and 46.  It is really hard for us to wrap our minds around the difference in the value of a dollar back in 1941.  But in relative terms, it's interesting to see that the radio was the most expensive option, by far at $65 for the standard Sonomatic and $72.30 for the "Super" Sonomatic, which included four short-wave bands which enabled you to hear "broadcasts of news and music direct from the capitals of Europe!".  "Compound Carburetor" seems like the best bargain at a mere $ 15.39 as an option on the Special.  The one that really gets to me (in terms of what they're worth now) is the "rear wheel shields," otherwise known as fender skirts, for $10 a pair.

[kingrudy]

Hi Neil,

 

Excellent post, I have often seen the fog lights located inside the bumpers, so this is news to me locating them outside. Also I was referring to the splash pan and the grommets sealing the brackets onto the splash pan (very clean install). I do not think that a splash pan for the front of the car was available in '40, but sure looks good. 

[neil morse]

11 hours ago, 2carb40 said:

Are there any 1941 Buick publications that give more details about size and shape options?

 

This excellent article by Bill Anderson has a lot of photos of the different lights that were offered and includes some material from factory publications and ads.

 

http://www.buickheritagealliance.org/content/pdf/GuideFogDrivingLights.pdf

[Grandpa]

More on the 1941 Buick fog light mounting brackets -

The fog light mounting brackets have the following casting numbers: 5932053-LH and 5932054-RH.  Shown are the Guide Division cast iron brackets with brass copies for the 1941 Buick.  The Buick shown has the fog lights reversed from the position shown in Buick literature of the period, which has the fog light mounted closer to the headlight.  The car shown has a hole drilled down the center-line of the bracket to hide the fog light wire.  The rubber grommets, for the front apron holes, are available from McMaster-Carr (MC).  The MC grommet has a squared-off outer edge, rather than the radiused outer edge of the original grommet.

 

[valk]

Beautiful installation. That is the perfect orientation/location of the lights IMO. And great idea drilling a hole/tunnel to hide the wire. I hope to duplicate what you've done here. Thanks Gandpa for all your help.

Peter

[FLYER15015]

So Grandpa, if you swung your brackets 180 degrees, would it put the fog lights between the outer bumper guard and the "elephant ears" ?

Then you could print the picture in Neil's post, and when you go to car shows, you will have "proof" of how they are supposed to be.

 

Keep the picture in your pocket till the judges are done and then whip it out and say SEE, I want my points back !!!

 

Especially if it's Marty. HA HA.

[Den41Buick]

In a related question. Where can you find the correct fog lights?

[Grandpa]

Re. a hole in the fog light bracket to hide the wire - Pictured is the wire hole in the bracket.

 

[valk]

That is such a cool idea. Makes for a really clean install. I hope to do his too. 

 

Asking around on this forum is a good start regarding where to find fogs. That's how i "found" mine. 

[Matt Harwood]

I found mine on eBay after looking for a few months--they don't show up often so when you see them you shouldn't hesitate because nicer or cheaper ones probably won't show up anytime soon. I bought NOS lenses at Hershey two years ago and hoped to find the buckets and brackets there but never did. So I have a spare set of B-L-M lenses for the rectangular lights if anyone needs them (they're identical to the Guides and are 100% interchangeable). Here are my lights when I got them:

 

 

They needed to be completely re-wired, but the chrome polished up nicely and the internals were in good condition and they were complete. I eventually replaced the mounting brackets between the lamp housing and the bumper clamps with some new chrome ones (also eBay) that are a little taller, which moved the lights above the bumper. Here's one of each so you can see the comparison.

 

 

You'd probably have a heart attack if I told you how much I paid for these lights, but since my advice is to just get what you want when you want it, cost be damned because this is a hobby, I just jumped in and bought them. I don't regret it and I enjoyed the installation part of the project and I like having them on the front of the car. I have never really used them, but they work perfectly if I do decide I need them.

 

There are other large-sized fog lights out there that are acceptable. There's no wrong choice for an accessory like this since anyone could have installed them in-period. Just make sure they're big enough for a Buick. The ones on my Limited when I got it were too small and looked hokey. And to my eye, the older Trippe lights don't look right on the sleeker cars like the '41s, but that's a personal choice. The Bill Anderson article linked above has some good choices that are reasonable alternatives if the rectangular lights can't be sourced. Here are the reproduction Guide round fog lights on my '41 Super and I thought they looked decent.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[valk]

I agree the height of the lamps can appear a bit low with factory brackets although I've seen some cars with factory brackets where the lamp height is good.  Doesn't appear there is much room for adjustment here - ie., sliding the bracket up - unless you remove the bottom "plate" mounting bolt. Grandpa, your top pic shows the lights well above the front bumper which is where I want it. The middle pic, however, seems to show the lights below the front bumper.  Am I seeing things?  

 

 Matt, the Buick brackets I have are much different than yours so I'm not sure I can use your measurements for the holes (?) although I am seriously grateful for your effort.  I think I am going to use the Service Bulletin method of locating the holes as that ensures the lower mounting plate sits flush against the front bumper brace. Looks like one can mount them anywhere along the bumper brace but I don't see any other options.  If the lights sit too low for my taste, I'll try and find other brackets that can work with the Buick bracket holes so I can switch them back if desired. 

[Grandpa]

Valk,

Below is another picture of the fog light.  The factory bracket mounts the fog light above the bumper.

Grandpa

 

[valk]

Perfect Grandpa, thanks!  My confidence is growing and I'll start the install tomorrow.  Matt, could your bumper be mounted a little out of the sweet spot and be adjusted down or tilted forward? 

[Matt Harwood]

I think my bumper is right but I'm not sure the mounting brackets that came with my fog lights were original and that's why they were short. You'll note they clamp on differently than those shown in Grandpa's posts. Mine clamp on the top and bottom, while the OEM brackets seem to clamp from the side. I'm not really a stickler for that sort of thing on this car, so I didn't really care either way and they just bolted on using the existing holes, which made my life a lot easier.

[valk]

...of course. That's it. 

[valk]

Just did the "Grandpa mod" on my brackets and drilled a hole on the backside to hide the wire. Now on to the hard part locating the splashpan holes. 

Neil, if you have the same brackets as Matt, they do not appear to be Buick (or '41 anyway) and explains why the lights on both cars are a bit lower. 2carb40 and Grandpa's pics are what I have and are factory correct. 

[Grandpa]

Hi Valk,

The following is a suggestion for mounting the fog lights on a 1941 Buick -

I removed the front splash apron & bumper and mounted the fog light bracket, with the light attached, to a position that I preferred.

I made a template, using the grill as a reference, that located the center of the apron hole.

After re-installing the apron & bumper, I drilled a smaller hole than what was needed for the bracket.

I used a half-round file and a Dremel tool to enlarge the hole and to re-center the hole (if needed) to the desired position.

Tool sockets (½ inch drive) were used during the process to check the hole for being round.

A slight gap needs to be provided around the bracket to accommodate the grommet.

The whole process took the better part of an afternoon.

Grandpa

[valk]

Grandpa, did your brackets end up clamped on the bumper brace in the same place as the one in this pic, ie., right in the corner of the brace?  And I was hoping to use one of these  hole saws to cut the holes - https://www.amazon.com/LENOX-Tools-Bi-Metal-Arbored-Technology/dp/B0054SBDD6/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=1+5%2F8"+hole+saw&qid=1565123595&s=gateway&sr=8-6

 

is this a bad idea? Grandpa's method seems pretty foolproof. 

 

[neil morse]

3 hours ago, valk said:

Neil, if you have the same brackets as Matt, they do not appear to be Buick (or '41 anyway) and explains why the lights on both cars are a bit lower.

 

Yes, I am aware.  Actually, the upper part of my brackets appear to be the same as those in the photo posted by Matt, but the lower part where they attach to the bumper mount is different.  The fog lights were on my car when I bought it -- I did not add them.  They were added by an earlier owner with "modern" plastic insulated wire, crimped connectors, and a toggle switch under the dash.  The lamps themselves are correct, but the installation leaves something to be desired.

[41Roadmaster]

Hi Valk-

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I'm just now seeing your topic. I hope this added information may still be of help. With no offense to others (to each his own!), my goal was to install the auxiliary lights as Buick designers intended. I used the Guide Lamp Division instructions included in the box for this original bracket. This literature has satisfied inquiring judges on a couple of occasions. It is an unusual placement, for sure.

I hope you got them installed to your liking. That's what it's ultimately about : )

Anderson

[valk]

Hi Anderson,

Yea, I'm aware mine are not installed the way Buick recommended but I don't buy that they inhibit air flow and I prefer placing them so they are not right behind the bumper guards. I'll lose points but I'm not a real contender anyway. 

Peter

[41Roadmaster]

Great, glad you got them where you want them, rock on!

 

[valk]

...and I like the looks of both locations. Your beautiful car accentuates the massive grill...

[neil morse]

Hi Anderson:

 

I really like what you did -- it pretty much matches the illustration from the accessory manual that I posted earlier.

 

It's very interesting to see the instructions that came with the Guide brackets.  Did you by any chance get a switch with instructions as well?  There was some discussion on another thread earlier about the best place to tap into the system to power the fog lights, and I'm curious about what the Guide instructions to the dealers specified about how to wire up the lights.

 

Neil