RansomEli Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) Finally getting around to re-doing the brakes on my '29 135 sedan. New wheel cylinders (thanks to Jeff Hasslen), rebuilt master cylinder. Brake lines and hoses look OK, but I will probably get new hoses because they are at least 15 years old. Removed the Master Cylinder head and barrel looks like crap. Am sending it out for rebuilding. The supply tank has a bunch of crud in it, too. Any suggestions on how to clean it out? A couple of questions: After getting the master cylinder head and barrel rebuilt, it's supposed to be "indexed." What exactly does that mean? The topic of DOT 3 or DOT 5 brake fluid has been extensively discussed in the AACA forums. Without going into the previous discussions, should I use DOT 3 or 5 in my Franklin? I can't tell you how relaxing it's been to finally get underneath my '29 again. My Franklin mentor (long gone) had two '29s. He couldn't physically work on them anymore, so we had a deal -- he'd provide the knowledge and I'd provide the muscle. Working on my car brought back fond memories. It also helps that my '29 had some good people working on it. Everything was nice and neat underneath. All bolts and nuts were tight, but not too tight. Edited July 15, 2019 by RansomEli (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) Send the entire master cylinder box to Apple Hydraulics. They will clean it all, sleeve and index the bore, and replace the lever shaft seal. All you have to do is mount the box back in. The DOT 3- DOT 5 debate is just that. I could do a long post on the problems I've seen with DOT5 and someone else would pop on and say they never had problems. There's nothing wrong with DOT 3 if you pump some fresh fluid through the system every few years. BTW, no brake fluid is meant to be left in forever. Water gets into the DOT 5 systems, too. Franklin brake systems are not sealed like more modern systems. Every time you pump the brake pedal air and moisture moves into the reservoir. I've seen where that moisture condenses, settles, and had collected in the low points of many DOT5 systems after I had to open them up. The moisture can't be kept out and it can't mix with DOT 5 fluid and be dealt with safely the way DOT3 & 4 are designed to handle moisture. And as it collects, it can freeze in cold weather causing brake problems. That's why it's not used in modern cars. But they never bother to tell you that. And the old sales pitch that the government uses DOT5 so that they don't need to change it is not true. The brake shop in Farmingdale LI that used to do my cylinder rebuilding had the USPS contract for doing the brake systems on post office vehicles. The owner of the shop said he loves that the USPS is using DOT 5 because as he put it, "It's putting my kids through college." Paul Edited July 15, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Whatever you do with Dot 3 v Dot 5 - DO NOT mix the two - that creates a ghastly gelatinous mess. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I have been running Dot 4 in all the cars - it is less hydroscopic than Dot 3. I hatted Dot 5 on the Franklin as there was allways a drip of it somewhere on a fitting (just added more, but ....). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stvaughn Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, John_Mereness said: I have been running Dot 4 in all the cars - it is less hydroscopic than Dot 3. I hatted Dot 5 on the Franklin as there was allways a drip of it somewhere on a fitting (just added more, but ....). Same problem I’m having. Next time it will be DOT 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, stvaughn said: Same problem I’m having. Next time it will be DOT 4. Every year I put maybe an inch of silicone fluid in the jar - car would throw you through the windshield stopping so never worried about that - but just hated all the drips hanging on the fittings. Edited July 21, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 How can you tell if the fluid in the car is DOT 3 4 5 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: How can you tell if the fluid in the car is DOT 3 4 5 ? Pump some out into a clear glass jar then, * pour some fresh Dot3/4, if reaction, you have dot 5 in there * pour some fresh Dot 5, if reactin, you have dot 3/4 in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 so dot 3/4 are compatible with each other ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stvaughn Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 29 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: How can you tell if the fluid in the car is DOT 3 4 5 ? All the DOT 5 I’ve used is purple although some brands are different. And yes DOT 3 & 4 are compatible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 https://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/resources/faq/difference-between-dot4-and-dot51-brake-fluid/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 One of the standards to meet DOT specs is that the different categories of brake fluids have to all be compatible. In talks with a Wagner brake systems engineer, some of the problems in past have been caused by, there are only a few companies making DOT 5 fluid, contamination and compatibility problems were traced to some companies that bought from one of those companies and then rebottled the DOT 5. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 So suck out a little brake fluid and mix with DOT 3 and if it stays separated it is 5 correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) One of the recommended tests is to put some of the brake fluid in question, in a clean dry glass jar. Drip in some water, wait and watch what happens. If the brake fluid is Dot 3, 4, or 5.1 the drops of water will dissipate in the fluid as it should. At most, the brake fluid will start to turn a bit milky looking. However, those brake fluids are designed to safely handle water and not let it separate out as just water, which will boil at far lower temps than even water contaminated DOT 3 brake fluid does. Water in DOT 3. 4, 5.1 fluids is not a problem as long as it does not get to "gross contamination levels" the term a brake engineer told me about. That's why it should be flushed with fresh fluid every few years if the car is drive in damp climates areas of the country. With DOT 5, the water can not mix. Being heavier than DOT 5, the water will sink to the lowest point, such as the bottom of master and wheel cylinders and remain as just water that will boil at 212 F. Or freeze if it gets below 32F. And if you think Franklins don't get water in a DOT 5 system, think again. I've opened up many DOT 5 systems and EVERY ONE had what I call the DOT 5 foot print. Rust spots on the bottom of the master cylinder and wheel cylinders where water had settled and collected into a growing drop of water. Every time the brake pedal is pressed fluid moves in and out of the vented master cylinder reservoir and so does air with moisture. That moisture can condense, collect into droplets, and sink to the lowest point, which is the master cylinder. But that's not the only way water gets into a brake system. Yes, DOT 5 does not attract water, but that doesn't stop the natural phenomena of "vapor pressure" - moisture moving from a high concentration area to a low moisture concentration area forcing moisture into the system. The difference is DOT 3,4, and 5.1 are designed to work with that, DOT 5 can't. I found that the worst rust spots in the DOT 5 systems are usually in those parts closest to the reservoir (master cylinder) and the two front wheel cylinders because of the brake hoses being so close to them. Lesser rust shows up in the left rear wheel cylinder, it being the furthest from the rear axle brake hose. Wagner did tests and found that moisture - being one of the smallest molecules - can go right through the brake hose walls and the rubber in cover some the master cylinder reservoirs, because of natural vapor pressure. Even with modern brake systems moisture can't be kept out 100%. Yes I know, there are owners who say they have not had problems with DOT 5 in their brake system for years. But, how many ever bother to open the entire system to do a thorough inspection ? I've had to rebuild too many DOT 5 systems to ever again be a believer that it's a "do it and forget it" brake fluid for Franklins, because when it first came out I was using it too. My advice is, if your going to use DOT5 and you live in one of damper areas of our country, treat it like Dot 3 and flush new fluid through every few years. The tools to do it are simple, there's no need to jack up the car, it takes less than an hour with the help of someone to press the brake pedal, and a quart of new fluid is plenty to flush the entire system. I know this will ruffle some feathers, but since having to redo so many DOT 5 systems I no longer recommend using DOT 5 to my customers. If they want to use it that is their prerogative, but I won't do the job. Paul Edited July 24, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stvaughn Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Paul, What is your recommend way to clean out the hard lines if I decide to change back to DOT 3/4? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 37 minutes ago, stvaughn said: Paul, What is your recommend way to clean out the hard lines if I decide to change back to DOT 3/4? Steve To flush any of the DOT brake fluids use alcohol. Then blow the lines dry with clean compressed air. By clean I mean from a compressor that has air line filters and water traps so that it is not blowing oil or water vapor into the brake lines. Or, if they are the original brake lines, be safe and replace them with new high-strength copper lines and brass flair nuts from the Club's website. The old brass flair nuts have been known to suddenly crack from decades of outward pressure. Especially dangerous if they are turning pink-ish as the zinc leaches out and weakens the brass. Paul 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Use denatured alcohol from the hardware or auto shop, household stuff contains water. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stvaughn Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Thanks Paul, all my hard lines are new cunifer. One would be very difficult to replace now that the car is assembled. Is it ok to use the alcohol on the flex lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, stvaughn said: Thanks Paul, all my hard lines are new cunifer. One would be very difficult to replace now that the car is assembled. Is it ok to use the alcohol on the flex lines? Yes, not as easy as a bare chassis, but most of the Franklins I've replaced the lines on were assembled cars. To quote H.H.Franklin's office sign, "It can be done." The alcohol won't harm the brake hoses. Just make sure to dry it all out thoroughly after flushing until you see clean alcohol coming through. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 13 hours ago, PFitz said: Yes, not as easy as a bare chassis, but most of the Franklins I've replaced the lines on were assembled cars. To quote H.H.Franklin's office sign, "It can be done." The alcohol won't harm the brake hoses. Just make sure to dry it all out thoroughly after flushing until you see clean alcohol coming through. Paul I need to hang this motto in my shop. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) I copied one that was over a customers office desk and placed it above my shop door. "Why is it that some people never have time to do a job right the first time, but always find time to do it over ?" Paul Edited July 26, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Well that's better then the motto the electricians on the school were are building have. " We do it right all three times" Enjoy trek. ! Remember me if you see a rear foot rest ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 Update: I sent the master cylinder to Brake & Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis. Tom Rasmussen and Jeff Hasslen have used them many times and I decided to follow in their footsteps. Received the unit back in about a week. Looks nice, although I won't know until I actually drive the car. Have all new brake parts from Jeff Hasslen. Need to flush the brake lines (they look good so I won't replace them) and install parts. Based upon your recommendations, I'll use DOT 4 brake fluid. Thanks for the advice. Will keep you posted on my progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stvaughn Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Awesome looking auto. Get it on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) I recommend that you replace the lines, too. That's the part of the system that can and has, suddenly failed leading to brake loss when one of the old brass flair nuts cracks from decades of outward tension of the tapered seat. It's not uncommon to find one or more of the flair nuts already cracked and waiting to let go. If any fittings are turning pink-ish they are wreakened from zinc leaching out of the brass and can break even more easily. That's why the Club is selling new high-strength copper/nickel brake line, and the proper SAE spec flair nuts. Paul Edited August 15, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 I'll double-check the brake lines per the advice given. Neal Kissel had worked on the car for the previous owner. I'll see if the lines have been replaced and everything looks OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Jim, At the risk of belaboring this point, DON"T TRUST the looks of the lines if can't be positively established that they have ALL been replaced with NEW high-strength copper/nickel lines and NEW flair nuts. This is the one place in the brake system most likely to fail suddenly and cause a complete LOSS OF BRAKING. After 80+ years, the flair nuts are the weakest link in the entire system....and they ain't getting better. Cylinders may leak, but because of the design of the Wagner Lockheed systems on Franklins, it's extremely rare that they could cause complete system failure, like an old flair fitting can when it suddenly cracks. BTW, the original flair nut that cracked and lead to a complete loss of brakes downhill, on a Series 145 roll-over at a Trek - just 100 miles after being inspected and tested - also looked fine. Paul Edited August 15, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Paul, Thanks for the advice. You've convinced me to install new brake lines, too. The Franklin Club website lists a source for the 1/4" and 5/16" lines: Federal Hill Trading Company. Will purchase a good quality single flare tool in order to do the job right. Eastwood seems to have a good one. Just found out that Federal Hill does not carry the long tapered flare nuts, described by the club as FCP-36: ten 1/4" and two 5/16" long tapered flare nuts. I'll contact the Franklin Club project manager to track these down. Will follow recommendation on HHFC website and get 25' roll of 1/4" and 3-5' of 5/16. One Q: can I put a brake fluid reservoir on my '29? If so, where does it connect to the master cylinder? The factory drawing #43995 doesn't offer much help. I appreciate everyone's advice. Edited August 15, 2019 by RansomEli added additional info about flare nuts (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Jim, Yes, you can buy the copper/nickel brake tubing else where, but, not the SAE spec brass flair nuts. Those are only available through the Club. Back when I was handing over running the Club's Parts Projects to Bob Harrison (smartest thing I ever did with it), I found the only US company that makes them in this country exactly to the Franklin drawing, which is still the SAE specification. Back then there was some question about the strength of the imported brass flair nuts sold in autoparts stores. You can get the lines and flair nuts right from the Club. Then your helping support the future of the Club's Parts projects. Adding a reservoir to a 28/29 style box master cylinder will cause problems. The box cap might not seal because it has a check valve in it to maintain about 7 psi in the system to help keep the lips of the rubber piston cups sealed against their bores. Plus it might interfere with the compensating port unless the check valve is removed. If you negate that check valve the rubber cups may leak. If just adding a separate reservoir and line to that box would make it better, Franklin would have. All too often, trying to improve these systems just causes other problems. Yeah, it's a pain to get the toe board up to check brake fluid level. What some do is cut a good sized hole in the floor board over the master cylinder fill cap and use a sheet metal swing-aside cover over the hole. However, before you starting cutting, if the brake system is rebuilt properly you'll only need to check fluid level about once a year, when you check the trans fluid level and grease the knee-knocker brake linkage. Paul Edited August 15, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted August 16, 2019 Author Share Posted August 16, 2019 Great! Will get the lines and flare nuts from the Club. thanks for the advice. Will forget about the brake reservoir. And will keep everyone posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop j Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 I need a address or phone number to get in touch with Auto brake shop that did you master cylinder ( thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura S Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 Brake and Equipment Warehouse 455 Harrison Street NE Minneapolis, Minnesota 55413 phone 612 378 3141 . I have used them a few times and always happy with the result . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 Those are the ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 On 7/15/2019 at 3:24 PM, PFitz said: Send the entire master cylinder box to Apple Hydraulics. They will clean it all, sleeve and index the bore, and replace the lever shaft seal. All you have to do is mount the box back in. What does it mean to index the bore? I was going to attempt to rebuild my master on my 147 myself, but I'll probably take the ride over to Apple and let them do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 8/30/2022 at 9:23 AM, Steve Braverman said: What does it mean to index the bore? I was going to attempt to rebuild my master on my 147 myself, but I'll probably take the ride over to Apple and let them do it. Steve, some shops don't center the casting when they bore for the sleeve. Or they don't bore and sleeve in far enough and the cup lip might run off the edge of the sleeve. And I had one that a shop forget to drill the tiny compensating port hole. Great way to have your brakes lock up. Have Apple sleeve it and then use brake assembly lube in all the bores and on the pistons and cups. Then you won't have a problem with dissimilar metals jamming a piston in the bore down there in the land of perpetual dampness. And yes, water gets into DOT 5 systems. Seen the rust in the bottom of too many master and wheel cylinders filled with DOT 5 to take water vapor pressure for granted ever again. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 I bought a kit on ebay for my 147 that includes hoses, wheel cylinder kits, and a master cylinder kit. I was going to go that route, but thought better of it. I took the master and wheel cylinders, and drove over to Apple in my 16A to drop them off. The guys were amused to see the car, and were happy to know that the brake components that they rebuilt 15 years ago are still working perfectly. As a side note, after the car sat for a few years with an engine failure, I was unable to get a brake pedal and determined it was the master. I brought it in to them, and they re-rebuilt it while I waited under warranty. This was seven years after they rebuilt it the first time. As for DOT 5 fluid, whenever I hear about it all I think about is you and Ken Johnson rebuilding his brakes on the green at Caz to flush out the silicone fluid. I always use DOT 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Steve Braverman said: I bought a kit on ebay for my 147 that includes hoses, wheel cylinder kits, and a master cylinder kit. I was going to go that route, but thought better of it. I took the master and wheel cylinders, and drove over to Apple in my 16A to drop them off. The guys were amused to see the car, and were happy to know that the brake components that they rebuilt 15 years ago are still working perfectly. As a side note, after the car sat for a few years with an engine failure, I was unable to get a brake pedal and determined it was the master. I brought it in to them, and they re-rebuilt it while I waited under warranty. This was seven years after they rebuilt it the first time. As for DOT 5 fluid, whenever I hear about it all I think about is you and Ken Johnson rebuilding his brakes on the green at Caz to flush out the silicone fluid. I always use DOT 3. These old brake systems are not sealed like more modern ones. Every time you step on the peddle you pump air in and out of the reservoir and the moisture it contains. LI being very damp year-round makes it worse. I've had to flush a few DOT 5 systems. That water collects in the bottoms of the cylinders because it can't mix with DOT5 like it's designed to do with DOT 3 & 4. Each one had rust in the bottoms of the master and wheel cylinders. And it's not just because the reservoirs do not have a rubber bellows seal. A Wagner engineer told me how their tests showed vapor pressure can push moisture through the brake hoses. And sure enough, the front cylinders each having a hose at the cylinder, always had more rust in the bottoms than the rear cylinders with just one hose up on the rear axle. Back when I was on LI I used a brake rebuilder in Farmingdale. The early DOT 5 sellers used to use the US Postal system and the military as an example of the gov was using DOT 5 so it must be better. He said, he had a contract for doing the postal trucks and he loved that they were using DOT5. Then went on to tell me about the problems they were having as a result. With a smile he said. "They're putting my kids through college." Paul Edited September 8, 2022 by PFitz (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKS Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 When going on the club website all the fittings are out of stock. Anyone know when they’ll be available? thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKS Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 Also is Apple Hydrolocs in Calverton NY? Again thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 Ron. The brake tubing is listed as in stock, but the flair fittings are out of stock. The tubing is imported, but the flair fittings are made here in the USA, so they should be back in stock soon. Have you tried contacting Keith and asked him when the fittings will be back in stock ? And yes, Apple Hydraulics is in Calverton, which is on Long Island. Apple Hydraulics1610 Middle Road Calverton, NY 11933 Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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