RICHELIEUMOTORCAR

1938 Cadillac V16 7 Passenger unrestored original. 28k miles, off the road since 1954.

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19 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Problem is I think alot of stuff is V16 specific,  even the Grille and bumpers so chance of finding those coming up cheap on ebay are slim.  I know i spent alot of time trying to find parts for my Hudson on there.  I bought a couple of pieces but that was over 3 years time.  Being the parts can come from any 1947 Sedan and some fit multiple years I was amazed how little good stuff turned up and I know how to find stuff mislisted. it's like Cord stuff.  All I have bought properly listed on ebay for it was a Horn ring and an instrument facia panel.  Everything else listed,  which there wasn't alot,  was worse than my parts or went for far more than replating my pieces.  I fortunately have a bunch of rechromed parts in boxes for it that I picked up from other Cord owners that sold their car or were aging out of the hobby.   I think that's the problem you will find with this car.  A more common car like a 48 Chevy you will do well , especially with buy it nows that are just listed , but if they go to full term on an auction,  it's stiff competition with the west coast low Rider crowd. 

If it is not V-16 specific then it tends to be 75 Series specific 

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Either way it won't be cheap,  as probably few people are doing full restorations and the few items being offered are being scooped up by the guy with a pretty nice car that doesn't need much,  so he'll pay extra for it, than a guy pinching pennies because he knows he is underwater to start with.  Remember the cost of chrome is going up daily so already replated parts aren't dropping in value much.  I go back to the fact they are all considered rare and valuable like Cord parts,  so you will pay a premium for anything nice or V16 only related.  You will be competing for parts with guys that own very valuable open cars as well so they will most likely spend much more than you are willing to restore a formal sedan. 

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On 7/8/2019 at 10:26 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

I only hope it finds a good home and is restored correctly or just put in driving condition and enjoyed.  Thanks for thinking of AACA and forum members first.  Lately EBay has been a disappointment to us or we just do not have cars of interest. 

I also hope it finds a good home .A V16 would be a dream to own but only opening an engine that sat for 81 years with 28.000 mls so there is no play  in the bores and take out 16 pistons that maybe are sitting solid in the engine .I try to do everything myself but such task would be to much for me no matter how much i would like to have it .Let us hope it comes to a good end .

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I had not even thought of the engine needing to be disassembled if it's seized.  Wow what if the engine is almost junk because the pistons are welded to the cylinder walls or you have to bore out the cylinders and sleeve them.   Huge gamble.  I only realize this after having to rebuild two engines that I thought would be fine and those were simple Mopar Flat 6's.  Makes one less optimistic about dormant cars. 

Best of luck to anyone that steps up.  Mechanical work is the biggest money pit on an old car as no one cares what you did under the hood or under the car.  They just care about chrome paint and interior. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

I had not even thought of the engine needing to be disassembled if it's seized.  Wow what if the engine is almost junk because the pistons are welded to the cylinder walls or you have to bore out the cylinders and sleeve them.   Huge gamble.  I only realize this after having to rebuild two engines that I thought would be fine and those were simple Mopar Flat 6's.  Makes one less optimistic about dormant cars. 

Best of luck to anyone that steps up.  Mechanical work is the biggest money pit on an old car as no one cares what you did under the hood or under the car.  They just care about chrome paint and interior. 

 Nah, that motor should be fine. Dumped Marvel Mystery Oil down each plug many times in the past and it was filled to the top with oil plus the entire car was coated with Cosmoline. It was also stored on ashes and ground up coal which both suck up dampness. We knew what we were doing. Still do today, I think.... 🤓

Edited by RICHELIEUMOTORCAR (see edit history)
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What a shame that this seller has to listen and weed through all this bullshit every time he lists  a great car that has been saved  for decades. It seems like EVERY CAR he lists for sale, he is barraged with what if this and what if that... Come on folks , we all know the old swan song that is sung here day and after day. It really baffles me why so many people write in and spew the same old crap. Yes its a old car, its been sitting at least 50 years and yes its going to need work. What would the  auctioneer say at a estate sale if he had to listen to all this rhetoric ??? Put up or shut up. I really don't know how this seller remains professional. Of course this MY opinion , and Im not always politically correct.  This is not a personal attach on anyone , just my thoughts. Thank you. Mike

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Thank you mike,it seems some folks just want to spit fire,I think if not for folks like this that saved these vehicles when they where just beat up old cars then a lot of cars and a lot of history would be lost,how many would take the time and energy to store them,,mike thank you for your words and thanks to Richelieu motor cars for all you’ve done for all of us collectors who like to bitch,     Dave

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33 minutes ago, mikewest said:

What a shame that this seller has to listen and weed through all this bullshit every time he lists  a great car that has been saved  for decades. It seems like EVERY CAR he lists for sale, he is barraged with what if this and what if that... Come on folks , we all know the old swan song that is sung here day and after day. It really baffles me why so many people write in and spew the same old crap. Yes its a old car, its been sitting at least 50 years and yes its going to need work. What would the  auctioneer say at a estate sale if he had to listen to all this rhetoric ??? Put up or shut up. I really don't know how this seller remains professional. Of course this MY opinion , and Im not always politically correct.  This is not a personal attach on anyone , just my thoughts. Thank you. Mike

I have not seen a car that   Richeliumotor has posted that was not restorable. I suspect some of the posters here would vote to scrap this collection of barn finds seeing how much work and cost is involved to restore the cars.

To many hobbyists out there  the cost is not a factor to put a car back on the road or show field. A friend just sold an 08 car and the new owner is going to have a new body and fenders made for it. There are hobbyists out there that see a car and have to restore it no mater the challenge. 

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I have a great restorable old car as well.  Here she is.  Much like all the previous ones. Saved from the scrappers,  the only difference is I'm trying to get rid of it,  today while there is still something usable on it for the next guy,  not squirrel it away with visions of granger.  Asking price, $250.  It's rough and crusty, I do have clear paperwork on it and will entertain any offer.  Except maybe your ex wife.  An old sign,  A go kart, some old tools, a stack of old brochures ,  Some pavers to do a walkway, no electronics as I can barely use my computer.  About anything else considered,  even if it's worth only $50 as long as it's something I have a need for or can make a few bucks with.  

That's saving something.  locking it up until it's compost or darn near isn't really doing it any favors.  By the way,  this is the way I got it,  I didn't let it degrade to this condition. 

Sorry already sold the beamer conv't today about an hour after I listed it,  to some guy sight unseen because at the price I offered it,  with clean clear paperwork,  he said even if there were only a few pieces he needed, it was well worth the price.

 

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When I purchased my 38 V-16 convertible the hood side panels and grill were missing. I walked around Hershey for 9 years with a sandwich sign looking for parts.  That is how I first met Bob Hoffman.   Never found any and that was in the 80"s  Finally resorted to buying a 90 series sedan with a bad motor to use as a parts car.  Been looking for a replacement block for that car ever since and haven't found one,  Seventy five and 90 series are essentially the same from the cowl back for 38.  The plastic radio grill is almost always shot as the early plastic disintegrates with time, even in  climate controlled storage.  The V-16 Hub cap medallions are not produced any more.  If the water pumps are rusted out you have to engineer new one's.  The economics of restoring this car are enormous.  Has to be a labor of love.  Thanks for posting it.  Magnificent auto in its time.  Wish I were younger.  Bob Smits

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3 hours ago, mikewest said:

What a shame that this seller has to listen and weed through all this bullshit every time he lists  a great car that has been saved  for decades. It seems like EVERY CAR he lists for sale, he is barraged with what if this and what if that... Come on folks , we all know the old swan song that is sung here day and after day. It really baffles me why so many people write in and spew the same old crap. Yes its a old car, its been sitting at least 50 years and yes its going to need work. What would the  auctioneer say at a estate sale if he had to listen to all this rhetoric ??? Put up or shut up. I really don't know how this seller remains professional. Of course this MY opinion , and Im not always politically correct.  This is not a personal attach on anyone , just my thoughts. Thank you. Mike

 

Mike... they'll only be happy if Richleau gave them the car and then gave them $10,000 too - and then they'd complain it wasn't enough.

I like everything Richeleau has posted - not that I can take on another project but if I didn't already have one I'd be haunting him because the stuff he's selling is what I like. What I'm tired of is this constant refrain of "you'll never get your money back"... SO WHAT! If I get back 10 cents on the dollar for my car stuff I'll be miles ahead of everyone I know who thinks nothing of spending thousands on golf, sports events, concerts, any type of entertainment - you name it. Just about everything that the general public regards as "normal".

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5 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

What I'm tired of is this constant refrain of "you'll never get your money back"... SO WHAT! If I get back 10 cents on the dollar for my car stuff I'll be miles ahead of everyone I know who thinks nothing of spending thousands on golf, sports events, concerts, any type of entertainment - you name it. Just about everything that the general public regards as "normal".

JV, 

I agree with the above quote. You can thank the B-J's, flippers, and dealers that turned the hobby into a business and/or investment strategy for people that think like that. It's all about the $$$$. The question regarding mileage was reasonable considering the description & the 2 or 3 photos posted. I can't imagine anyone, unless you know the seller personally, that wouldn't think the same plus why are there not more photos of the rest of the car. All of this is IMHO, of course.

 

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Posted (edited)

I have used the hobby to help pay for my hobby. Yup, I have flipped more cars than you can shake a stick at...........but they are all back on the road running, and much better cars than they were when I started. I have also cut up about twenty five “major pre war cars into parts” which has probably put another hundred or more of similar cars back on the road. Am I causing people to be pushed out of the hobby? or am I advancing it and a good steward and ambassador? I am probably in the mid seven figures in the hole if you add it all up. Fact is dealers, restoration shops, reproduction parts manufacturing.............service garages, car clubs, car shows, and Concours events are all done for one motivational reason..................as the answer to 95 percent of the questions you will ever ask........it’s about the money. It’s the way life is. To the best extent that I am able, I try to have fun.........this journey through life can be lived in a thousand different ways........for me, I’ll take the losses and drive very cool, historically important, and to me interesting cars. I’m more than 2/3 through my “time” that most of us are allowed by the big guy upstairs. I’m still having more fun than you can possibly imagine. Time is running out for all of us............enjoy the hobby to the best of your ability...........we all get just one shot to live life to the fullest. At my funeral they are going to say............he sure spent most of his money on cars.......yup! And all of it was well spent! Ed

 

 

PS- as far as giving back.........half the cars I work on are for people new to the hobby or cars that haven’t been able to be fixed by others.........and I do it for no charge. I do give back to the hobby and to the people on this particular forum...............because it’s the right thing to do, AND it’s fun and rewarding. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

There's nothing wrong with profit. I wish I was better at making it. Nor is there anything wrong with flipping cars if you have the know how. My issue is the motivation and, in this case, the presumption that everyone is driven by the same motivation. None of the cars in question are going to appeal to the "flippers" of the world, or to people who want to buy a car and win a plastic bowling trophy at the local show the next Saturday. What I resent is the presupposition that if you aren't going to make a profit at it, it isn't worth doing and that there must be something wrong with anyone who does.

 

When asked, as occasionally happens, where a new collector should go for their first purchases, I usually suggest going to a reputable dealer - someone who's reputation is on the line when they sell something. Buying from someone who knows their stuff has a "value added" quality that is probably move valuable to the buyer than the profit is to the seller. My other stock piece of advice is, regarding auctions, "if you need the auctioneers description to make a decision you aren't qualified to buy at auction."

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

JV, 

I agree with the above quote. You can thank the B-J's, flippers, and dealers that turned the hobby into a business and/or investment strategy for people that think like that. It's all about the $$$$. The question regarding mileage was reasonable considering the description & the 2 or 3 photos posted. I can't imagine anyone, unless you know the seller personally, that wouldn't think the same plus why are there not more photos of the rest of the car. All of this is IMHO, of course.

 

 

I suspect there aren't more photos because they are difficult to take in a dark, crowded storage barn. All the cars this member has been posting are being gradually disinterred from long time storage and he often comments on how they are blocked in and that it will take weeks, if not months to get to them. I've tried taking pictures in places like that and it is pretty much a waste of time. It's amusing how so much is made of "barn finds" and when someone actually offers a real barn find it is so often picked to pieces for not being a slick, turn-key proposition.

 

And I'm not thanking B-J for anything but then I don't even own a television.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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I agree with Ed's philosophy.  I probably have more than $250K in the 38 in 1980's dollars.  When I acquired it the car had been sitting outside in Maine for seven years with the top down, the hood off and the heads sitting on the ground.  Parts were scattered everywhere with many missing including the grill and side panels.  The thought of making money on this car never crossed my mind.  My primary concern was keeping my wife from finding out how much i was spending.  At least the money you drop into Richelieu's car won't be squandered by your underachieving heirs.  My other two hobbies are art glass and antique advertising.  The advertising  is the only one to turn a profit.  All three have afforded us years of pleasure and world wide friendships.  How do you put a price on that.  Bob Smits

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I think the results of that auction were much like the Chevy Dealer out west with the no mileage rust buckets.  Bidding fever.  I wonder how many people when they got home from the overseas auction had bidder's remorse on the more common stuff.  The car in the lead of the story is a different story. I would bet more than a few. Some bought some extremely stylish desirable cars.  While a 38 Caddy v16 formal sedan is a rare bird,  there is the whole desirability end of it.  Then the fact few guys want to jump into a project value wise on the highest entry point they can with other of the near exact same examples out there for less knowing they still have alot of money to spend.  You still have to pay for the restoration one way or another .  The guys with unlimited funds and no personal connection to a big late 30's American sedan compared to those buying French Sculptured exotic cars are much fewer and far between. 

Matt sells alot of cars and gave us some pretty good insight into the one he brokered.  That's why this discussion has gone the way it has.  The comp was presented something usually hard to do with fairly rare cars,  but then again rare means one thing over all others. Parts are going to be hard to come by and not cheap when you find them.  

Maybe the golden day for selling cars like this has passed.

Many of us still have wives to explain things to as well so yeah,  money does come into factor at some point for most of us.  You can sneak the hundred dollars here and there but it's the thousands and especially tens of thousands they notice for those of us that are not very affluent. 

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One of the key differences between this message board and the general old car hobby is that we have shaped each other's beliefs. We understand this is a hobby and that it's fun and doesn't need to be a profit center or make financial sense to be a viable hobby. WE get that.

 

HOWEVER, 99.8% of the guys who walk into my shop, buyers and sellers, expect to make money or at least get all their money back. ALL of them. Some eventually realize it won't happen, some don't, but the prevailing belief in this hobby among almost everyone except the relative handful of people on this message board is that old cars need to pay for themselves. And it is with that in mind, even though few of us think that way, that cars like this are a difficult proposition. It has been a fundamental shift that many of us have seen happening right in front of our own eyes. In the 60s-70s-80s a car like this would be a wonderful project for a hobbyist with a little skill, a little time, and some disposable income. He could make it work as Bob Smits describes. He'd do it for the love and he'd be better for it.

 

Part of the problem today is that services have gotten exponentially more expensive. Scarce parts are even more scarce--all the good stuff has already been restored and many of the projects that are left are often parts cars that have already been picked over (not that this '38 is such a thing--it appears very complete). And finally, there's this pervasive idea that there's money to be made by practicing your hobby. I don't know who to blame for that, whether it's the auction companies, or dealers that call cars investments, or just the general feeling that things of value should always be appreciating, but there it is.

 

That '38 V16 I sold was a car I viewed with envious eyes because I like projects and for something of that magnitude, it didn't need any metal work and it was complete so it was manageable for a regular guy who had time, if not a lot of money. Those are the important things to me as a hobbyist-restorer. I wouldn't really care about the overall cost because that's the hobby and it would be spread out over many years. I bet most of you would feel the same. However, we are the distinct minority and the hobbyists with the skill, desire, and knowledge to restore this car are few and far between today. When a guy is bankrolling a professional restoration and simply writing very big checks month after month, it's easy to understand how the perspective would change--for that guy, the hobby isn't the project the hobby is the finished result. It's a small but significant difference in the way the hobby is viewed by its participants.

 

That's why cars like this are a tough sell and why many people say that it's a financial quagmire. It is. It's a great opportunity for a guy with a lot of time who can spread it out over time, but there will still be large bills along the way--you can't spread an engine rebuild out over five years like you can with chrome plating. So you need a guy with skills, time, but some reasonably significant resources. Someone like me: a 50-year-old professional with decent skills and some disposable income who wants a long-term project. But how many of those guys are looking for 1938 Cadillacs and not 1970 Chevelles?

 

So where does it go? Who is the ultimate owner? I really don't know anymore. That's a lot of words to make the same point, just with more finely-split hairs.

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I've posted a picture of my 1938 Cadillac V-16 before, but it has been many years ago.  Anyway, here is a picture of it again.  It is a great car that has just 52000 miles and was originally owned by Darryl Zannuck.  It was used to pick up and take many movie stars to the opening of their movies in Hollywood.  One can only wonder who sat in the back seat during those times.. Later it was also used in some movies.

It is a joy to drive and has a lot of power.

1938 Cadillac V-16.jpg

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When I was in the modern car repair business, I often had customers with no money to get necessary safety repairs done. Just couldn’t afford it. On the inside door panel there was usually about five grand in scratch off instant lottery tickets. 

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Just found these two photos of our '38 on its way to France.

 

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2 hours ago, Lozierman said:

I've posted a picture of my 1938 Cadillac V-16 before, but it has been many years ago.  Anyway, here is a picture of it again.  It is a great car that has just 52000 miles and was originally owned by Darryl Zannuck.  It was used to pick up and take many movie stars to the opening of their movies in Hollywood.  One can only wonder who sat in the back seat during those times.. Later it was also used in some movies.

It is a joy to drive and has a lot of power.

1938 Cadillac V-16.jpg

 

If I was going to have a town car, this would be the one I wanted. Smooth, fast, comfortable, and it transforms the big sedan into something almost sporty. Excellent!

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On 7/9/2019 at 9:36 PM, auburnseeker said:

I wonder what the plating bill for decent original chrome needing to be refreshed is on one of these?  20 grand? 

Center grill for a 1939 LaSalle was 6K (and I bought a 1200 dollar grill to get something better verses original that was just "very nice" to save money)

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So all this talk and still only 3 close up photos?  

The task is less daunting to sell,  when cars are priced right.  So what if you don't get top dollar,  which seems to be a very elusive number,  especially on rougher project cars which aren't getting any better or easier to restore as parts supplies dry up or increase in value as supplies are depleted. 

They are like stock,  hold them too long and you miss the bubble.  May have already happened. Price each one right shed as many as cause you heartburn,  so you can trim it down to the few you like best and make your life easier.  Concentrate on being a curator of those.  You will in the end be much happier. 

By the way no activity on the Fiero,  so price drop and market it on facebook. I want this stuff gone. 

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Quote Auburnseeker:
“Price each one right shed as many as cause you heartburn,  so you can trim it down to the few you like best and make your life easier.  Concentrate on being a curator of those.  You will in the end be much happier. “

 

Better words could hardly be spoken.

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