Sign in to follow this  
edinmass

Edinmass needs your help............

Recommended Posts

Recently I was sent these photos, asking if I could rebuild their carburetor. Not much shocks me, but this did. I need to answer the gentleman. who has no clue as to what is going on. Thoughts? 😳

IMG_0149.JPG

IMG_0148.JPG

IMG_0147.JPG

IMG_0146.JPG

IMG_0145.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like someone sold him a couple of unfinished  castings. I'm not sure which kit you buy, but It won't be complete enough to put that together.  What would be more shocking is, if he said it ran but not well with this carburetor. ;) 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least they left all the port plugs in when it was recast, but I don’t think you will get them out without a fight!

 

Are you sure that guy isn’t pulling your leg? I find it really hard to believe he doesn’t know what is going on there, but I have also met a few I could believe it from so I can see your dilemma.

 

You could reverse engineer another and do a lot of machining at which time you might want to make a few more to cover your costs, I’m sure a run of these in a quality bronze would sell eventually but I don’t know if there’s a large profit to be made.

 

 This is one time you should suggest he find another core and go from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does sound like somebodies leg is being pulled, and his wifes name is Eileen.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm patting myself on the back for ID the UUR-2 before photo #3. I used to make GOOD money buying those White Truck & Pierce Arrow carbs and selling them to Type 57 Bugatti owners, I miss the good old days!. 

 

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ed, how quickly did you send those pics to John?  😂

What is the going rate for a decent UU-2 or UUR-2 these days?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The carb in the first photos is a rough casting of a UU-2, not a UUR-2. The casting was just pulled off an old carb, with no adjusting for shrinkage. Also, it's the early UU-2 that was discontinued within a few months due to problems, so they copied a junk version. The casting is NOT useable, and if it was, the machine work would cost much more than a good used carb. Also, it's still missing one casting cover. Good used UU-2 and UUR-2 units are available, not cheap.....but much less than the cost of trying to play with the casting above.......which I don't think it is possible to use no matter how much time and money are spent on it. The issue with the origional pot metal going bad is just one hurdle, as MOST people have incorrect carbs on their cars.......Carbking can chime in, but there are multiple different castings on upper and lower castings, along with different choke horns. Thus........even a good used unit is expensive to set up for any particular application if you want the unit correct. I see many carbs on eBay listed for sale, but most are junk...........best guess is one in twenty are still good. You can expect to spend anywhere from 2-4 grand depending on missing parts, updates, linkages, chrome, ext. As to going rate.....not easy to say, but PROVEN GOOD body is worth decent money, many have internal passages blocked from metal fatigue, even from the outside they look ok. I see using prices on eBay for a core at 4k, without any guarantee its good. Buyer beware. Ed

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With core values in this range why isn't someone making complete new carbs?  Castings for the main body can't be that expensive if done in small scale production , 20 at a time ?

 And most of the small parts must already be available. How different are the most popular 6 versions , could one basic body casting cover them all ?

 

Greg in Canada

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully the growth of 3D printing will make it easier in the future to create such things. With luck, that future isn't too far off...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Ed - you are there with the castings, and I am here looking at pictures, but the bowl casting looks like a UUR-2 to me.

 

Times have changed, but I DID get quotes on tooling to do these, as well as Stromberg UU-2, and EE-3 lots of years ago. I am not even going to think about considering to deliberate on reproduction, based on the quotes!!!!! The male and female dies for the EE-3, with replaceable inserts to cast the various venturii were just shy of $2 million, and that was 25 years ago.

 

But if any of you that happen to be independently wealthy, and do not wish to remain that way, and wish to reproduce these; I probably have the original drawings available for a price. If interested, will require a notarized statement that the tooling and castings will be done in the USA before I sell the drawings.

 

One caviat: these were what Stromberg referred to as a "thin-wall pressure casting". Sand casting will NOT work and retain original dimensions.

 

The UU-2 and UUR-2 would be somewhat more of a viable project than the EE-3, as the UU-2 and UUR-2 have removable venturii, rather than the cast venturii of the EE-3.

 

Funny someone mentioned the military White truck UUR-2. Barnett & Small used to sell that junk to unsuspecting buyers who did not know that there was no pump or power circuit in the carburetor. Cost of machining the bowl for the pump and power circuits exceeded by about twice what Barnett & Small sold the new old stock carburetor.

 

We had a couple which we parted out for the floats, shafts, etc., and recycled the bodies as scrap brass.

 

EDIT: a year or so ago, we sold a kit for either a U4 or UX4, don't remember. Customer called, and told me needle and seat, and body gasket in the kit was wrong. Since that kit is virtually never sold, I still had new old stock packaged Stromberg needles and seats, and made the gasket using the original Stromberg drawing. Long story short, he sent me the castings. They were an older sand cast imitation! I custom made him a needle and seat to duplicate what was used (have no idea what), and custom made a gasket (scanner and one to one printer is great for cutting custom gaskets). Same issue with the UU-2, UUR-2 and EE-3. Sand casting will not retain original dimensions.

 

Jon

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon....I was laughing so hard I didn't look at the photos close enough. It's interesting that people will make a bad sand casting, dreaming they will get it to work, and have two hundred hours in it machining also. There are still enough good ones available......yes, not cheap, but available. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, edinmass said:

There are still enough good ones available......yes, not cheap, but available. 

Excuse my ignorance regarding these, but just out of curiosity and in case I run into any, would you care to share what (in general) is considered "not cheap" value for them ?

 

P.S. I also hope you won't mind me asking what Tipo engine the head in your avatar is off of ? Most of its features look quite familiar, but ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1500-4000 depending on application, condition, and restoration.

 

The head........Model J Duesenberg, just doing a tune up last week! 👍

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, edinmass said:

1500-4000 depending on application, condition, and restoration.

 

The head........Model J Duesenberg, just doing a tune up last week! 👍

Thanks.

 

Apparently my initial guess was way off, ...

.... but now, given your second to last signature line and my momentary inability to add up or pay attention adequately, makes sense. 😉

 

As for the carbs, this reminded me of a NOS set of six 40DCN/21As I had a chance to buy few years ago for $14K.

Still kicking myself for not doing it and more so after I heard some one since paid 45 for set of decent used -/20s (?) + cost of M. Pierce to modify them to use in -/21A application (although this is based on hearsay). 🙄

Edited by TTR (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eddy,   I misread your title as "Ed in Mass needs help"  and thought to myself,  truer words were never spoken.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ed - over the years, I have had several customers send me castings such as you have; but all were Detroit Lubricator (at least that I remember). One individual sent me 10 bronze bowl castings that came from Asia for the Packard Standard 8. While the castings looked nice, each was approximately 7 percent undersize.

 

I do not know what he knew concerning the bowls, but he offered me 9 of them if I would do the machining for him to get one for his Packard.

 

I sat one of his side by side with a genuine DL bronze bowl with measuring devices on each pointing out the issue; and sent them back mentioning that I did not own a metal stretcher, and could not do the machining because of that.

 

Didn't someone a "few" years ago mention "penny-wise, pound-foolish"? ;)

 

And I think you may be a bit low on your value range (other than the afore-mentioned military White truck UUR-2, where your range is too high).

 

Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Eddy,   I misread your title as "Ed in Mass needs help"  and thought to myself,  truer words were never spoken.

 

 

I’m taking my medication and going to therapy five times a day. They promise me that after ten more weeks and some electric shock treatment I will be as normal as you are............

  • Like 2
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know injection die casting tooling is very expensive although the 2 million you mention is beyond anything I previously imagined. But what about a properly made and correctly shrinkage compensated bronze investment casting ? As I have seen here and an other sites, 3 D printed patterns can be very accurate and surprisingly reasonable in price . Shrinkage compensation is built in to the software. And the process is cheap enough that if things are not 100 % dimensionally correct on the pilot castings you can just adjust the next "print". No need to scrap expensive hand made tooling like in the old days if a error is built into a pattern. Still a big up front investment but I doubt it would be even remotely in the millions.

 How many cars use these problematic carbs ?

 

Greg in Canada

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

A fun project ;)   been there done that on not one of these, but a few other trainwrecks, but I gave up my machine tool skills for lent some years ago for disaster projects like these.

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this