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Painting strategy and cost.


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59 minutes ago, marcapra said:

Can HVLP guns be used with a regular air compressor?  If I decide to go with the turbo system, what is the difference between a 3 stage and a 4 stage?  

 

Yes, but you'll need inline moisture traps and filters if it's an oil lubed compressor head. Plus the compressor's CFM (cubic feet per minute) output needs to be considered for an HVLP gun to properly atomize the paint. The spray gun manufactures usually list the recommended minimum CFM for each model. You can get by with a bit less than recommended CFM, but then your likely to find yourself waiting between gun spray passes  for the compressor to catch up.  And  if compressor outputs gets too low, it may not atomize the paint was well thus making orange peal (that wet golf ball look) tenancy of modern acrylic enamels even worse.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, marcapra said:

Can HVLP guns be used with a regular air compressor?  If I decide to go with the turbo system, what is the difference between a 3 stage and a 4 stage?  

 

1 hour ago, PFitz said:

Yes, but you'll need inline moisture traps and filters if it's an oil lubed compressor head. Plus the compressor's CFM (cubic feet per minute) output needs to be considered for an HVLP gun to properly atomize the paint. The spray gun manufactures usually list the recommended minimum CFM for each model. You can get by with a bit less than recommended CFM, but then your likely to find yourself waiting between gun spray passes  for the compressor to catch up.  And  if compressor outputs gets too low, it may not atomize the paint was well thus making orange peal (that wet golf ball look) tenancy of modern acrylic enamels even worse.

 

Paul

 

Yes that's consistent with my understanding of how it supposedly works. Both regular and HVLP guns can be used with a conventional compressor.

 

With the HVLP gun you run the same compressor but turn down the regulator. So the tank might have 90 psi in it, but the regulator reduces the pressure to the gun much more.

 

Regulated pressure to a regular gun might be 50, 55 psi, while the regulator gets set to something like 30 psi for and HVLP gun. Or maybe less, even 20?

 

 

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We are often asked to do "less than perfect" meaning "cheap" paint jobs. I always ask "by less than perfect do you mean runs are ok?" "Well no.." "Are you ok with a little dirt in the paint?" "Well no..." " How about the body work? Are you ok with seeing the bodywork thru the paint?" "Well not really..."  "Then please tell us what you want our bodyman/painter to do?  Close one eye? Not sleep the night before he sprays your car? Drink 6 cups of coffee before picking up the gun?" It is a simple concept that many seem not to understand

 If you pay for less than perfect work you will get less than perfect work. Many years ago we made the decision to do only one quality of work and that is the best we can do and that decision has served us well.

 

 

"

 

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PS- A Pebble Beach paint job is 200k all day long..............if you want to win a first in class on a pre war car. 

 

this is probably the main reason I would never even consider going to Pebble Beach..........

 

cars never came out of the factory with paint jobs that good- but bragging rights among the rich?

 

yep!

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1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

We are often asked to do "less than perfect" meaning "cheap" paint jobs. I always ask "by less than perfect do you mean runs are ok?" "Well no.." "Are you ok with a little dirt in the paint?" "Well no..." " How about the body work? Are you ok with seeing the bodywork thru the paint?" "Well not really..."  "Then please tell us what you want our bodyman/painter to do?  Close one eye? Not sleep the night before he sprays your car? Drink 6 cups of coffee before picking up the gun?" It is a simple concept that many seem not to understand

 If you pay for less than perfect work you will get less than perfect work. Many years ago we made the decision to do only one quality of work and that is the best we can do and that decision has served us well.

 

 

"

 

 

True craftsmen ALWAYS work to one level, the absolute best that they can achieve. I am not a paint and body guy.......I know and understand it, but don't have the ambition or experience do do a good job. Now, people often ask me how I can spend a month full time working out bugs and defects in restorations, and spend another two weeks tuning the car. When they jump in and drive it, they no longer ask the question. Last year, while at Pebble Beach, one of the top cars was trying to start........I could smell the ten year old gas, and see the owner who wasn't familiar enough on how to start it flood the engine. You think that shipping a car from Europe, they would have spent some time sorting and tuning it. Learn how to start it hot or cold. Get to know the car and the feel of it on the road.......nope. It was fine eight years ago before they parked it in the museum. Just put a battery in it and its ready to rock & roll, till it breaks down on the tour. What happened? ALL pre war cars require time and attention. Give it to them and they are a pleasure to drive and very reliable. Time today is something almost no one has, and if you can't give your car the attention it needs, it WILL let you down. A properly sorted early car will stay in tune, and be reliable. Just drive it ten miles every six weeks or so. Fact is almost all cars are neglected and don't receive the proper matainance that they were intended to have. Remember when you use to buy fuel at a SERVICE STATION? Now we buy fuel at a gas station. Today you can almost ignore your car, and it won't break down or self destruct. I don't recommend this treatment for pre war cars. The best way to get a great paint job for two thirds discount is VERY easy. Buy a well restored car that the guy has 150k in it for the 50k asking price. You get the paint, along with the upholstery, chassis rebuild, chrome, and all the extras for free. I do understand most of us here can't or won't wright the check...........so we learn to live with what we can or are willing to afford. Nothing wrong with that.........one just has to adjust his expectations. Today I am installing correct lights on a pre war car that won Best of Show at Pebble Beach. They were modified and hacked a few years ago to install turn signals. I removed the tin foil that was being used as a reflector............and replaced everything with factory parts. Interesting what an owner will do so he doesn't have to send a car out to be serviced. Fortunately the rest of the car has remained unmolested since the restoration. I could just install the lights and be on my way, but they cut the original wiring harness and used plastic wire and modern connectors, so I will spend a few days removing the gas tank, and making a new rear harness for the car, in the correct color coded cloth wire, with the correct early connectors. It's going to take a lot of time to do all of this, and no one will ever see the incorrect stuff......but I don't work that way. I service, repair, and restore cars to they way they were built new......and I enjoy every minute of it. Best, Ed

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

Nothing like a Binks #7. I tried a HVLP and went back to my trusty #7's....................Bob

I started out on them 45 years ago building museum exhibit displays. The #7 is a great gun.  

 

But, since HVLP guns came out, I prefer how they put much more of today's very expensive paints on the car parts than in the paint booth exhaust system.

 

Paul

 

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A few years back  we were sitting by our car watching the winners drive up to get their awards at the "new" Meadow Brook concours. A prewar car, a big classic type with the owner and, I presume, his wife driving died right in front of everyone. The owner never even got out of the car. About a minute later a golf cart with about 4 guys in white jump suits screeched to halt. Those guys were on that car like monkeys on a mango tree. After about 5 minutes of monkey motion the car belched to life. The head monkey gave a snappy salute and the car drove off.

Another happy hobbiest.

Can't help but wonder how many hours that dude put in block sanding his $200K paint job.............Bob

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1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

We are often asked to do "less than perfect" meaning "cheap" paint jobs.

 

How about the guy who says he is not in a hurry and you can work on his car as fill in "when you are not busy". Just to keep his costs down.

 

Ahh, 1988, Stoke up the fire in the garage and lay down eight coats of lacquer. The internet was for scientists and Apple made home budget programs.

0033.jpg.7e59343b5e15870414dd1c2cbf32cb83.jpg

 

Maroon was a popular color bace then.

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Jeff, you make a point that some people do not recognize.  If an owner asks a reputable shop to do less than a perfect paint job then that has a chance to ruin the reputation of the shop.  That is why most quality professional restorers will not take on a job that compromises their standards.  It is simply not worth hearing "XYZ shop did that job??!!  I sure won't ever take my car there!".

 

Whether it is a $200,000 job or a home sprayed job there is room for both kinds of efforts.  Unlike the early years I spent in a body shop, paint runs and problems were a disaster.  Today's paints are more forgiving and wet sanding takes care of a lot of issues.  Everyone is right though about the prep being super important ,and virtually anyone can handle that task.  Lots of very acceptable paint jobs are done at "home" these days.  Our director of the AACA Library learned at home and did a very acceptable job on his 37 Buick.

 

Good luck to the original poster and have fun.  Spraying paint is a very satisfying activity.

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I would never recommend going to a shop, that does perfect work, and asking for less.  Their less, if that would even possible, in the grand scheme of things, would still be very high.  I recommend asking around for a good painter, checking out some cars that he/she has done, and choose accordingly.  I found a guy that used to work at a major local shop.  He went out on his own, to a smaller space, and is now quickly growing. 

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3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

The paint gun we use now cost nearly as much as we charged for a paint job back in the day.

Yep.  I paid $700 for a lacquer job back in 1981.  You can easily drop that on a gun these days.

 

And truth be told, that might be the biggest thing standing between a DIYer and a $200,000 paint job.  A good gun will save you hours of sanding, buffing. etc.  It's worth scraping together every penny you can afford to get the best gun you can.

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Up to 40-plus hours of final wet sanding and compounding is discussed in this video. He says only 10 hours is adequate for "driver quality."

 

The link jumps you ahead in the video to the wet sanding part.

 

 

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First overall paint jobs we did as young teenagers were with a Electrolux Vacumn Cleaner with a spray attachment.  It was in the garage of a house our parents bought along with lots of household enamels.  Yes i t looked like stucco an faded quickly, but we got lots of practice.

Remember in the 60's a Fac-O-Bake paint job was $29.95.

Second system was a Navy surplus Crosley compressor with s cheap spray gun.  Got a better job but still some orange peal.

Next was a used Binks Jam gun and a Sears 20 gallon  air compressor, used lacquer and buffed out the errors.

Next  better compressor and the Binks with acrylic enamel.   Great combination!

Next, the the rebuild kit for the Binks cost more than a cheap Pro gun.

HVLP guns from Harbor Freight, both Jam & Overall took over.

While I've not done a overall job yet, I have done fenders, wheels Skirts & interiors. I still like the $9.99 HVLP Jam gun  the best.

Edited by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)
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14 hours ago, marcapra said:

Can HVLP guns be used with a regular air compressor?  If I decide to go with the turbo system, what is the difference between a 3 stage and a 4 stage?  

There are two gun systems. The HVLP set-up sold by TP Tools and others has no compressor & tank. It blows air continuously through the gun. This is a "bleeder" gun, as it shoots air out all the time (with paint added when you squeeze the trigger). This can be a pain if you lay it near some dust while painting. The warm air, however, keeps your paint dry. The other HVLP gun type uses a standard tank air compressor and sprays air through the gun only when the trigger is pulled. These two systems, while they are both HVLP,  require different guns.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd guess most pros are now using an HVLP gun as it has less overspray.

 

Phil

Edited by MochetVelo (see edit history)
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I remember back in the early 80s I painted my 50 Chrysler with the original type of paint, Dulux enamel.  You can't get that now because acrylic enamels are superior!  I remember, back then, I knew a woman who owned an old VW bug.  She painted it herself!, using a house painter's brush and white latex paint.  you could see the brush strokes!  But I don't advise this method to today's  DIY's.  

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I am not a good painter. Not many really are. That has made me pay very close attention to paint jobs over the years. It has been my observation that a $4,000 to $10,000 paint job can add about $1,000 to the value of a car. The best buys in project cars come from painters who can't make them run right. Always try to buy the finished paint job.

Bernie

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16 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

It has been my observation that a $4,000 to $10,000 paint job can add about $1,000 to the value of a car. The best buys in project cars come from painters who can't make them run right.

 

16 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Likewise an engine rebuild is an even bigger disappointment in return.  A car with good paint and no engine,  will sell faster than a car with perfect mechanicals and receipts to back it up but bad paint. 

 

IOW, it doesn't make sense to spend money on an old car. :D 

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Thought people may be interested in an amateur job being performed by me in my 2 car garage.  If I get an invitation to Pebble Beach I would attend though I didn't spend outrageous money to restore my 1915 McLaughlin-Buick.  I did try to paint the car in correct colours, I was dismayed to find the bonnet was to be black, that was a new style popular for a short time, but now I love the look.  Presently the fenders are painted in a single stage urethane and have been wet sanded with 2000 grit sandpaper, ready for the next step of machine compounding and polishing.  I did blow the budget on nickel plating, it is beautiful.  In front of the car is the garage it was painted in.

 

Regards, Gary

 

DSC_1001.JPG

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