Ultimate Oldies and Classic Cars

[Peter Gariepy]

RonB,

Just to clarify one point. The CCCA does NOT own the trademark to the word "classic". It does however own the trademark to the term "Full Classic?".

Peter

[Guest]

Hi Guys,

I just can't resist!

Dear Peter Hartmann,

Kindly reread one of your rants about the misuse of the word classic. See if you can find YOUR spelling mistake in the word DUESENBERG! One would think that a person who spends as much time berating others for what they consider the misuse of the word CLASSIC would AT LEAST BE ABLE TO SPELL THE NAME OF THE GREATEST CLASSIC CAR PRODUCED BY ANY COUNTRY CORRECTLY! Especially since a 1929 DUESENBERG Model J could run the wheels off your 38 Packard even though it is almost 10 years older. And, the Duesie might not even need high gear to do it.

I agree with posts above that you are a CLASSIC northern end of a south bound descendant of a horse and a donkey. And, since from what I can see from the CCCA website, your obnoxious, condescending attitude toward others in our hobby and those trying to find out about it is representative of the CCCA attitude, there will be a foot of solid ice in Phoenix for at least a decade before I'll be sending a dues check to CCCA.

Do I own a CLASSIC, or a special interest car, or a modern grocery getter? That's my business. But, you can rest assured that I want no part of the CCCA.

AACA members treat each other with respect and try to encourage newbies to get involved in the hobby. Either get with the AACA program and treat people with respect or GET OFF THE AACA BOARD and keep your pompous comments on the CCCA board where they appear to be welcomed!

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Pete,

I can assure you that I have the "guts" to have a "calm dispassionate discussion" in an "adult manner" on any subject you choose, just as soon as you APOLOGIZE.

You never cease to amaze me. The very thought of YOU accusing someone of not having the "guts" to discuss something in an "adult manner." "Guts" are something you most definitely lack. If it were not the case, you would have apologized a long time ago.

There are few on here who would argue against your definition of "classic". Most of us are at least familiar with the CCCA and have no qualms. It is your attitude and lack of manners that are the issue here, not your definition. Just because the CCCA has its definition does not give you the right to ram it down every newcomer's throat who has the misfortune of uttering the word.

Why don't you reach way back into your memory and try to find a little piece of that home training you seem to have forgotton so long ago, and come back on here and apologize.

[Guest]

Hal

This is vintage Hartman. The scenario is too familiar.

Some newcomer stumbles in, asks a question and Hartman vomits all over him.

Several people speak up in defense of the newcomer, telling Hartman to back off.

Hartman responds telling everyone to lighten up and maybe quotes a few unrelated and incorrect passages from old publications. To make his point, he grossly over-uses capitalization and quotation marks. He usually mis-spells words, but don't we all. He used to take credit for nearly single-handedly forming the CCCA, but under scrutiny, he backed off that claim. Now he has adopted the notion that he and a few assistants dusted off an ancient, little-used word and through his effort and devotion, catapaulted it into universal daily use. In an effort to distract you from his lack of manners and knowledge, he'll advise you to go to a large metropolitan library and look something up.

At some point, he'll issue an invitation to either race cars, drink beer or visit his ranch. If you still balk, he'll inform you how wonderful this new form of communication is and can't all just get along so we can learn something? If all that fails, he'll stop posting for a day or two because you are a sore-head.

Off to the races, BillP

[Guest]

Yep, just like Al Gore invented the internet, Hartman made the term "classic" an everyday household term. What a load of horse biscuits.

[Guest]

Hal

I forgot to mention the most important part:

Disregard the foul atmosphere that the DF regulars have to contend with.

What happens to the newcomer?

What opinion has he formed?

Is he likely to return?

BillP

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and DISCUSS IN DETAIL, PRECISELY WHAT YOU AGREE, OR DISAGREE WITH. </div></div>

Pete, this is an easy target. We disagree with your attitude towards others, we all agree you have little if anything positive to offer. It that precise enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <snip> when are you coming up here so I can buy you lunch, and give you a ride in a REAL car ? </div></div>

Real car? We all have real cars. I restored mine (1500+ hours) with my own 2 real hands, by myself. Late in the garage most nights. Every nut and bolt removed by me, refinised repaired and replaced, by me from my wheelchair. My car is as real as they get. Just like everyone elses cars are. No matter if it is a 73 VW or a '04 Winton. How dare you belittle anyones cars! We are REAL people with real passions and real love of the hobby. I would guess that not many here have the attitude that their cars are somehow beter than anyone elses, only different. I love all cars. The weird ones (like my Amphicar) or the simply beautiful ones ('34 Brewster) even your own Packard out shines you Mr. Heart-less, ummm I mean Hartman.

[Guest]

I wonder how many potential AACA members have been lost by finding this website, checking out these forums, stumbling onto this cr*p and saying this club aint for me, I'm outa here.

[Guest]

Wow - all these comments...let's see what I can get my teeth into, that would be relevant and interesting to you guys. Remember, we are here to talk OLD CARS, and how we relate to them - let's not waste too much time on raw personality issues.

Dusenberg..? Hell...guys...you are right..I havnt a CLUE how it is spelled, way out of my league ! No way could I have afforded one when I was a kid...I remember drooling over one...it was damn near "mint"...but..the guy wanted NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS for it. I couldnt even IMAGINE that much money, so it got away. Working as an apprentice electrician, I was able to save enough (twenty five bucks in cash) to afford the '38 Packard Twelve....sure wished I could have afforded the SEVENTY FIVE bucks an earlier and "more classic" Packard Twelve was priced at....but....you know the old story..."there is always someone with a bigger...longer one".....we just have to deal with it.

The original Classic Car Club Of America crowd...? Well, yes..the above "poster" is correct...most of us were middle class types, who un-ashamedly loved to monkey around with the discarded "toys" of the elite. I STILL get a kick out of those rose-wood vanity cases in my Packard Twelve. We had a lot of fun in those days - but believe me...we were HARDLY arrogant...the overwhelming opinion of the rest of what there was of an old car hobby...looked at us...as if we were NUTS....why...the very IDEA..of saving the biggest, heaviest, most elegent of those luxury cars, when for not too much more money...we could have gotten a nice stock late 1930's economy car.......!

I almost never took the Packard Twelve out on a date in those days ( mid 1950's) ....too embarrasing....IF you could get a girl to even RIDE in the old thing..you'd run the risk of having a restaurant owner tell you to go park that ugly old thing somewhere else.....! Isnt it fascinating, that in a few short years...the word "classic" had become SOO desirable, we have all that stuff being "hawked"...cars...products...called "classic"....!

Duseberg compared to Packard Twelve from a PERFORMANCE standpoint ? Not as different as you might think. But let's put it into context. Remember, there was no Dusenberg...it was a LYCOMING engine...specifically designed for high rpm power, using just about every racing technique in the book. Thus, the over-head cam made sense for free breathing at high rpm ( still does...most modern engines are variations of the Lycoming-Dusenberg). Interestingly, few Dusenbergs can "breathe" and this puzzles many even today...why they used such a small carb. ( "swept volume" of their carbs. prevent them from developing their full potential) (well..that isnt true on some of the last Duseies - more about that in a sec. )

The Packard Twelve did what it was supposed to do, provide at least equal, if not superior performance in the enviornment it was designed to operate in, with absolute reliability. Some of the interesting design features of the Packard Twelve that make its performance almost the equal of the mighty Dusenberg, are its free-breathing WEDGED shape combustion chamber and pistons, monster capacity exhaust system..and...most important... a MUCH larger carb, (the famous Stromberg EE-3). There ARE "Dusies" that can "blow off" a Packard Twelve...Lycoming learned fast, and started equipping SOME of them with larger carbs.....in some cases, the same huge EE-3 that the Packard Twelve used...and those did really "go". And, combine the EE-3 with a super-charger...WOW !

Bear in mind you could buy half a dozen Packard Twelves for the price of one Dusie....so...YOU tell ME which was the better buy. Remember, that was a VERY conservative era, and one look at a photo of a diplomatic event, opera opening, etc., will show you that the big Packards literally "owned" the upper class market O.K...O.K....with all that...I admit it...damn...do I wish I had a Dusie....!

Are people "put off" by car clubs ? Well...car clubs have a tremendous handicap...that causes them trouble.....see...they have HUMANS in them...and HUMANS have different opinions. There are those who just cant STAND opinions or things "different" from their opinon on how "things SHOULD be".....and these sensitive types often go off and sulk, because they dont feel happy when their views are held up to the light of day.

I have no remedy for this. Perhaps few more generations of "politiclaly correctness" and feminism, and we will all be sweet, lovely, agreeable, non-questioning little wuzzes...and then even the most delicate and sensitive of us will feel at peace........

Just look what happened to the AACA. When I was a kid, they were interested in REAL "antique" cars cars with ANTIQUE features....you know....two wheel "external contracting" brakes, "T-head" type motors, no electrical systems with accetylene gas lighting......(which is why I didn't care for them...wasn't my "thing".....now....can you imagine...people call cars from the 1950's, with modern mass produced sheet metal bodies...short stroke modern V-8 engines, hydraulic/automatic transmissions, air conditioning, power everything.....and they call these ANTIQUE...? Gawd.... Oh Oh..guess I should question that either....after all....no deviation from the "politically correct"....allowed.....

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

More than you might think, I'd wager. Especially true of those who, even after having read the vitriol of Hartman, screw up the courage to post something. After getting rudely and disgustingly greeted by the self-appointed gatekeeper, they do not return.

This forum is amazingly civil with very little of the shenanigans that go on at other sites. They have been overly tolerant of Hartman's pedantry and insult. It is not a good thing for the hobby. There is a line separating earnest, cheerful, helpful and positive fellowship and spiteful, low and negative abuse. The crossing of that line occurs too frequently here.

Of course, all I say is just one man's opinion. Maybe others view all this as just light entertainment. But I doubt it. BillP

[Guest]

Of course I posted the above in response to the speculation of the amount of casual viewers who are turned away by the rudeness here.

Have a look at Hartman's recent post. How does it have any relation to the topic at hand? We are advised to stick to old cars and not talk about personalities and then it babbles on about the swept volume of carburetors (something that does not exist, but that's all part of the diversion) and reminded that guys with little cars resent large cars.

This is absurd. BillP

[Guest]

Bill:

C'mon Bill...you pulling my leg again...? Seriously...you mean you dont know...? Let me explain. Some carbuerators are bigger than other carbuerators. Engines are simply air pumps...the more fuel-air mixture you get thru them...the more power. The biggest, most sophisticated motor in the world will only produce as much power as its carb's ability to let in fuel-air mixture is.

I know this isn't fair....but...again...don't pick on me about it. I dont have the address of Stromberg...but perhaps if you write them and complain to them about it...maybe they will do something about the "politically incorrect" sin of theirs of making some carbs. capable of "breathing" more air-fuel mixture than others.

Perhaps a "factory recall". Hmmm.....why not..after all..we HAVE to be "politically correct" these days.....hmmm.....I dont know any Dusie owners personally....thye "move in different circles"..... so I dont know how they'd react if Stromberg called them up and ordered them to remove those big EE-3's and install the smaller UR-22's the earlier Dusies had.

I agree...this just isnt FAIR...how DARE some peole have bigger ones than others......! We have to do something about this, or you guys are all going to spend the rest of your lives frustrated, every time you go to a car show where there are REAL classic cars displayed ( dont look for mine...I rarely show up....my Packard Twelve is usually so grubby looking from getting thrashed out on our back roads....I'd have to wash it...even then...it probably still wouldnt win a prize in a dog fight......!

C'mon...Bill.......!

Pete Hartmann

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Well, Pete, I see you're still not man enough to apologize.

[Guest]

APOLGY:

On behalf of Alvin MacCauly, and the Packard Motor Car Company, and on behalf of E.L Cord, of the Lycoming Co., and on behalf of....etc...etc...I hereby APOLOGIZE to the "politically correct" eveywhere..for the horrid...unfair politically incorrect idea that "some people have bigger ones than others"....and have the gall to flaunt it......!

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[Guest]

Hartman-

What property or assembly of componenets causes a carburetor to produce swept volume?

The above question can only be answered by saying that you erred by declaring that a carburetor has swept volume.

In technical matters, you are frequently a broken twig among tall oaks. To fog the issue with endless parables and unrelated mumblings about political correctness, crank envy and revisions of history only illuminates the flatness of your character.

But that's not really what we're talking about here. Mr. Model A Hal, and a large number of others have indicated disgust with your conduct here. What have you to say for yourself? BillP

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Pete,

From some of the things you've said in your posts, I figure you are probably in your 60's. I would have expected more from a man your age. My Daddy just turned 70. For the life of me, I can't imagine him acting the way you do. I wouldn't tolerate it from my 10 year old.

What do you say? Apologize for your actions and let's get this thing settled.

[Amphicar BUYER]

Model A Hal - I have to disagree here. From his post I would giess him to be a spoiled child of about 4. Even my 4 year old niece has enough self respect to admit when she is wrong, learn from it and make a sincere apology. She realized that people will forget about the mistake and she is respected more for her honesty and sincerity.

Pete - You are pathetic, lacking in self respect and respect for others. You sure are a "classic" troll and like like one man said earlier (sic), owning a "Classic" does not give the man (or boy in this case) class. You seem to keep harping on who has the "bigger one", Classic tale from somebody who must have something to be ashamed of.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Guys, I really think that one of the previous posts was correct. We are just giving Peter the chance to continue his foolish ways. After responding to Bill we should have dropped this since Peter obviously JUST DOES NOT GET IT!

His "apology" was idiotic and his seemingly lack of concern how he treats his fellow hobbyist is appalling. Everyone of his posts prove that he has no concern for the welfare of AACA or the hobby in general. In his world, the only important thing is to make sure no non-classic car gets called a classic!

Hell, you can call my 1908 Oldsmobile a brass car, a vintage car, a production car, a antique car or even a classic car and I don't give a damn.

As for me, this is a guy who does nothing for this forum but cause problems and I wish he'd just retire. We lose good guys like Howard but still have to deal with someone who really does not care who or how he offends.

[Guest]

Eubie Blake, God bless him, said this to me shortly before his death: "You ever see a bucket of crabs?" I confessed that I had not and he replied " they all crawl about the bottom and when one reaches the top the others just pull him down, that's what people are like by and large" and I must agree.

[Guest]

Olds:

I wouldn't call your '08 Olds a "vintage" car...cause it aint a vintage car. At least not as I understand the terminology of the various eras - my understanding is that the "vintage" era comes in after the brass era ended (when even ordinary cars started to get electric lights and self-starters ) so that would be around 1918....and ends when the "classic" era began ( mid 1920's).

Technically...your car would be "brass era", or "antique"...the "antique" era ending with the end of gas lighting, the beginning of "on board" electrical systems, etc.

Me personally...I would take one look at your car...and call it DAMN NEAT !

Pete Hartmann

P.S. STILL waiting for at least ONE of you guys to explain to me precisely where you feel I have mis-led any of you. I do NOT propose to be an expert. And as for the guy who says I am a four year old...thanks for the compliment...most people dont think I am any brighter than a three year old...!

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I don't recall anyone ever saying you misled anyone. What we want you to do is APOLOGIZE!

[Guest]

At the risk of receiving a fifteen yard penalty for piling on, You can't say that Peter Hartmann speaks for the AACA. I have looked through several years of the AACA national roster and find no listing for P. Hartmann. You are on your own Petey.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> from what I can see from the CCCA website, your obnoxious, condescending attitude toward others in our hobby and those trying to find out about it is representative of the CCCA attitude, there will be a foot of solid ice in Phoenix for at least a decade before I'll be sending a dues check to CCCA.

</div></div>

Dear Can't Resist,

I don't spend much time on the CCCA forum, so I'm not too familiar with their goings on. However the impression of that organization that you've described here I must say is diametrically opposed to the impression I've garnered over the years through direct and indirect contact with numerous members.

They do indeed (as you'd expect) tend to be quite wealthy. However among their members at numerous functions I've found them as a group to be among the most generous, outgoing and understanding of automotive enthusiasts.

Even the <span style="font-style: italic">"Dusenberg"</span> owners!

I've run shows where a few score of their membership attended, and have attended one of their national events myself. They were nothing but courtious, engaging and friendly towards me; and I am certainly not one to be mistaken for a millionaire myself even on my best days. Were I ever to become fortunate enough to be the owner of a True Classic, I'd join their ranks in a flash!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "....and have the gall to flaunt it......!

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [color:\\"orange\\"] "....and have the gall to flaunt it......!

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [color:\\"red\\"] "....and have the gall to flaunt it......!

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [color:\\"purple\\"] "....and have the gall to flaunt it......!

</div></div>

[color:\\"#666666\\"] -----------------------------------------------

[color:"black"] There's more to life.......and this hobby.........than gall and a little knowledge (always a dangerous thing).

[Guest Indiana_Truck]

I can't believe I have wasted my time reading some of this. Most of the time when I see a post by Pete Hartman, I just read down to the part where he starts in on someone and then skip to the next post ect. I too have been turned off by what I see in this forum from someone calling other people names and acting like some sort of nut job. I think I have just about seen more than I care to see. I thought this site would be helpful in finding parts and info but I see now I was wrong. I am new to this site so I wont be missed if I don't come back. How many new people have felt this way before me?

Answer,

More than you will ever know...............

[Guest]

Thank you, Model A Hal, for a responsive answer to my question as to whether you felt the technical discussions I provided were accurate. Exchanging ideas on car buff related issues, not individual personalities, is where we should be focusing our energies.

These "sites" are open to the public. One does NOT have to be a member of any particular Club using these forums, to make comments. You people will just have to accept the fact that ANYONE can come in here and say whatever is on their mind relevant to the old car hobby. So long as these sites are open to the car buff public, you are occasionaly going to see information and/or opinions you disagree with.

I have no suggestions for those of you who feel your particular view should not be subject to challenge. That is a most unfortunate attitude. Unless and until you find yourselves a private chat-room where conflicting ideas are censored/filtered out, I predict SOME of you are going to be very unhappy campers.

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Just think... HVS is on a self imposed hiatus because a few didn't care for him being politically uncorrect yet we still have Pete. I'll trade you 2 "Pete's" for 1 HVS any day!

[Idle Swede]

Ron,

I'll even throw in a DM if that would help

[Guest]

What's a "DM"... ?

[Guest]

Hey idle swede, Is that car in the picture a Delaunay-Belleville?

[Guest]

Damn, lost my identity agin!

[1937hd45]

You're all looking at this the wrong way! Do you all think Professional Wrestling is real? I hope not! Next time "The Arizona Antagonist" gets on one of his kicks look at it as entertainment or click the channel.

[Guest]

Still waiting for one of you guys...just ONE....or is that asking too much...for you to tell me whether you think I have mis-lead any of you with inaccurate info.

Otherwise, I stand by mine of 10-31 @ 9:57

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

The hell with arizona, I wanna know if the car in idle swede's pic's a goddam Delaunay effin' Belleville!!

[Guest]

In answer to your post Pete, no, I don't think you have.

Just a personality clash due to opposing points of view combined with more or less tolerance and sensitivity of perception or misperception, this happens wherever people gather and how boring it would be if we were all in accord with eachother.

[1937hd45]

Looks like one L.I.! Is that a marmoset in your photo, and what has it been drinking? PeterG how can the photos be enlarged?

[Guest]

That there is a pit bull who has not quite mastered his 12 step program and is partial to cheap rum despite earnest attempts to improve his palate with choice port and cognac. His name is Mr. Darkey

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hey Pete,

I can't say that you are guilty of supplying inaccurate information and I am not one who bypasses your posts when I see your name. However, as much as I hate to see the word CLASSIC attached to '57 Chevies, Mustangs, etc. I think you go overboard when you address this subject. Do you recall your personal assault on me on the CCCA forum accusing me of all kinds of reasons for me asking about "other" CLASSICS when all I was doing was researching an article for my newsletter?

I think that people like you who speak their mind and don't hide their true feelings deserve a place on this forum. When I said that I would trade 2 "Pete's" for 1 HVS, I was not wishing that you would go away as Howard has, I was hoping that Howard would return and inject some more dedicated feelings for the rest of us to think about.

Continue to speak your mind, Pete, but maybe tone it down a little or cut it short.

[Guest]

Lighten up Petey. This forum is supposed to be fun!. We are here to learn something. See, We all learned that you aren't a member of the AACA. If you will REREAD my post(15 yard penalty), you will see that I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to post. You made the CLASSIC mistake of reading something that wasn't there. I DO think that it is IMPORTANT that readers don't think that you are spouting the OFFICIAL AACA line. Your thoughts carry NO weight or significance. P.S. You are so CUTE when you are angry. Brittney

[Idle Swede]

P.H.

DM= Dead Monkey, was supposed to be a joke but doesn't seem at all funny when I read it now. Sorry, was written in haste.

L.I. Stellite.

Sorry about the delay, (leave the house early in the morning & return around midnight) work way to many hour's for a person that retired 25 years ago.

Yes, it is a 1914 Delaunay Belleville, currently in the Canary Islands, Spain but might be shipped to the US in the near future.