Ultimate Oldies and Classic Cars

[Guest]

Hello,

My name is Bill Thomas. I am building the "Ultimate" Oldies Site, http://www.ultimateoldiesradio.com and in striving to capture the essence of the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the site wouldn't be complete without the cars of those years. What we would love for people to do, is send us a picture of their favorite car, along with any interesting facts about the car, and even a funny or not so funny story. We would then build your page on own site, and you would be able to have a link back to yours, if you so desire. We will not be selling any type of automotive product on our site, it will stricly be an information and entertainment function. If you are interested, send me an email with the subject "Classic Cars" and I will send you a link for a prototype of what we have planned. I would also be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thanks,

Bill

wjthomas46@aol Ultimate Oldies Webpage

[Guest]

Dear Bill:

I think you are a bit confused about terminology. To the layman, of course, a "classic car" is any old car he is trying to sell. However, you indicate you are a "car buff", and therefore, should be a bit more precise.

Cars from after World War Two are stream-lined, mass produced, and thus are the very antithesis of a "classic". A true "classic" is typically an unusally large, powerful, luxurious, heavy car built from the mid 1920's up thru the start of World War Two, that "stands apart" from the ordinary old car of its era, by its "engineering excesses...magnificently over-done".

To get a better understanding of what the term "classic car" means, you might want to go into the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA area of this site, and prowl around.

I am NOT a spokesman for the CCCA ! I am merely offering my private opinion. Running around yelling the word "classic" at an old car you like, or want to sell, will NOT change it into a real classic automobile. Fact is, people who are less than precise in their use of words, do not tell us much about the cars they like, by mis-using words...all they tell us..is about themselves and their own priorities......Again...it is a free country...it is YOUR choice !

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Talk about beating a dead horse....

[Guest]

Hey....it is a free country...if the guy wants to sound like an idiot...or a used car salesman...who are we to critisize.....

[Amphicar BUYER]

Pete, try reading Bill's post again. This time sound out the words. "Ultimate Oldies and Classic Cars" He said he is a "car buff" ,This only means he likes cars and does not indicate anything more. The terminology is commonly misused and not a big deal.

There is no need to flame this guy. He is offering all a FREE service. Try to approach it with kindness to educate and not belittle. Nobody will listen when you come across like a pretentious [censored] and it reflects on all of us.

Bill, I for one thank you for your efforts! I know what this takes to make these things work. Try not to let those who think they know everything (but how to educate) get you down. It obvious that Pete lacks any sort of real communication skills and needs an education himself.

<span style="font-weight: bold">"The secret of education is respecting the pupil. " - Ralph Waldo Emerson</span> [color:\\"red\\"]

[rocketraider]

Hmmm-mmm... we have Rambler "Classics" from the 1960s, 1961 Oldsmobile "Classic Ninety Eights" - <span style="font-weight: bold">HAY!</span> it's not only us unenlightened car owners who make the mistake. Even the carmakers got in on it!

[Guest BruceW]

Don't forget the Chevrolet Caprice Classic.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

You know, Pete... It's bad enough to come on here and criticise the regulars, but this guy is new. Most of us regulars understand you are on this one man crusade to educate the entire world on the "correct" definition of "classic" and "antique", but the reality is, you are by far in the minority. Those words mean "old car" to the majority of the population. I realize you'll never change your mind about the definition and I'm not asking you to. What I am asking is that you show a little common courtesy to your fellow man, especially the new people on here who don't know how you are (although they are quickly learning). Telling someone you do not know, that they sound like and idiot, is just plain bad manners. You appear to be sorely lacking in the manners department. I feel that you owe this fellow an apology.

[Guest]

I have been giving thought about joining the AACA. However I have to wonder if I will also be labled an idiot and called duragatory names if I casually make a statement that is not in accordance with accepted protocal? Looking at the CCCA web site I see that, almost in every case where they define Classic, they define it as CCCA Classic. To me this implies what a classic is in the eyes of the CCCA, and not something that was carved in stone as an 11th Commandment for the masses to rigidly obey. Is the CCCA the governing body of the AACA or the antique car hobby in general? One definition that Webster gives for the word classic is "a typical example". According to Webster's definiton, a Model A Ford could be called a classic because it was a typical example of the type of cars in the early 1930s. Wouldn't the use of that definition ruffle a few overly starched collars?

Greg Everett

[Guest]

Hello:

Bill here again. I didn't mean to offend anyone by my post. Nowhere in my post did I state that I was a car buff, or any time of collector. What I said was that we were building the "Ultimate" Oldies site mainly centered around music, but also includes Tv Shows, Sports, Notable Historic Events, Etc. We also wanted to include the cars of that period and didn't mean to offend anyone by the use of the term, "classic" Let me just say that we are looking for people who had cars of that era, and wanted to be a part of something that should be informative and entertaining.

Thanks,

Bill

[rocketraider]

Dang, Bruce- I had forgot Chevy had a whole series of "Classic" cars in the 70s and 80s. In addition to the Caprice they made "Malibu Classics", "Nova Concours Classics" (now there's one to set the CCCA on its ear) and I'm almost sure there was some Monte Carlo Classic variant too. And then Oldsmobile made "Cutlass Supreme Classics" in 1988. Didn't Chrysler hang "Classic" on some of their downsized Gran Furys too? Ah, the 1980s... a time of excess and big hair

<span style="font-weight: bold">Greg Everett</span> - join the group. We're not all crusty old coots like you would infer from reading some of our posts. AACA is made up of many fine people who have a common goal and interest of preserving and restoring old iron, whether it be classic, mundane, or motor scooter. We just like to run off at the mouth sometimes .

<span style="font-weight: bold">Bill Thomas</span> - no offense taken by anyone here. We're all used to Pete- just don't get him started on Britney Spears . Sounds like you're creating a neat website. There'll be people here who'll help. I'd love to send you some pics of my 64 Oldses, but I don't currently have the capability to post pics anywhere.

[Guest]

Hey Pete, it is important to dot your i's and cross your t's. But as long as there are "car buffs", less vehicles, parts, pieces and memoribilia will make it to the scrap heap. I dont care how incorrect the terminology. I don't care if this guy can't turn a wrench or file a panel flat. The more interest there is the better.

coaster

[Amphicar BUYER]

""This is a free country ! If it pleases you to call your old Buick "restored", or an "antique" or a "classic"...have at it !"

Methinks Pete is a hypocrite. I found this quote in another thread by Pete.

[Guest BruceW]

Rocketraider,

There was also a Chevrolet Monza Classic that began in 1986 but was sold primarily as an export.

Neat idea for a site Bill.. Good luck with it!

[Guest]

Bill:

Relax...this is supposed to be for education and fun. Don't be thin-skinned ! Fact is, I am the first to admit my beloved Classic Car Club Of America dosnt own the word "classic". Yeah...we took a little used "word of art" and got the world to sit up and take notice of the cars we thought were worth saving, but...that's about it. Yeah, some of us are pretty proud that the world has become so intrigued with the word, that it is hard to find ANYTHING for sale these days, that some guy dosn't yell "classic" to whet the buyer's interest.

Don't worry too much about it - this is just a computer chat room ! Hopefully, we can all learn something from it.

Pete Hartmann

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bill, YOU are not the one to worry about offending anyone by your post. It sounds like you have a great project going and most of us appreciate any positive publicity about our hobby. We need it to grow. Best of luck.

Mr. Hartman's post was ill-concieved and most of us on this forum realize that it was a very inappropriate response to someone who was just trying to help.

[Guest Indiana_Truck]

Wendys has a BIG Classic. You can wash it down with a Coke classic

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

That wasn't an apology, Pete. I still think you owe the man one.

Additionally, Bill does not need to relax and he is not being thin skinned. He has not complained at all about your response. It was the rest of us who took exception to your attack. As a matter of fact, Bill came back on here apologizing to you for getting you upset, an action he certainly was not obligated to perform, but it does show what kind of person he is. Your lack of such action, likewise, shows what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of your behavior. I am!

[Guest brh]

Bill,

You are trying to do a good thing. Please don't get the wrong impression. Most people here will help ya in a heartbeat. We are a good group of people with a great hobby. There will always be someone around who find it necessary to be critical. But for every one person you'll find at least 30 good ones. Not too bad of a ratio. I'll send you a picture of my car. Classic or not.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

brh...good reply! I echo your comments to Bill.

Forums are like reading the Newspaper--you weed out what has credence, or, consider the source of what is nonsense.

Regards, Peter J.

[R W Burgess]

Amen on that Peter, I'm beginning to see the light. I hate to see such talent wasted.

[Guest]

C'mon...guys...who do you think you are kidding. It is insulting to car buffs everywhere...who, I find...are usually fairly bright guys, to take the position they dont know, deep down inside, what a REAL classic car is. It is just human nature to brag a bit, exaggerate a bit. Of COURSE you guys know that used cars from the 1950's are not classics - I will BET there isnt ONE of you who dosnt know EXACTLY what a REAL classic car is ( the largest, most powerful, most "elitist" luxury cars of the period mid-1920' thru start of World War Two). So who do you think you are fooling..you guys just LIKE the word, thanks to the hard work of the Classic Car Club Of America in bringing this word into common use.

Of COURSE you resent the arrogance of the real classic car - hell...that is NORMAL....these were the cars of the aristocrats - when we tried to figure out what kind of name to call this new club, whose purpose was to celebrate "the best of the best", what better word than "classic" to reflect the "arrogant elegance of these massive "engeineering exaggerations, magnificently over-done".

Why WOULDNT a guy who owns, say, an ordinary eight cylinder 1930's era Cadillac, Packard, or La Salle, resent the guy with the over four hundred cubic inch V-12 or V-16 ? Why WOULDNT the guy with the ordinary old car want to bask in the glory of this name - that is a VERY human trait.

C'mon...guys....open a copy of OLD CARS WEEKLY or HEMMINGS MOTOR NEWS...or go to any magazine store with car buff magazines....EVERYONE calls EVERYTHING that they are trying to "unload"....a "classic" this or that....but...don't think you are fooling anyone...you are only admitting you are human....now DEAL with it....and stop complaining. Life aint fair. Some of us have bigger, longer, better ones than others. DEAL WITH IT. Dont let it ruin your day ! Compared to a well-restored Dusenberg SJ or a Hisso J-12...my dusty and slightly worn Packard V-12 is a piece of garbage. Such is life....!

Pete Hartmann

[Peter Gariepy]

PeterH,

Geezus... I'd call you an ass...., but isn't that word reserved by a political party and can't be used without their permission? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Amphicar BUYER]

<span style="font-weight: bold">What does "Classic" mean?</span>

clas·sic Pronunciation Key (klsk)

adj.

Belonging to the highest rank or class.

Serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of colonial architecture.

Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.

Adhering or conforming to established standards and principles: a classic piece of research.

Of a well-known type; typical: a classic mistake.

Of or characteristic of the literature, art, and culture of ancient Greece and Rome; classical.

Formal, refined, and restrained in style.

Simple and harmonious; elegant: the classic cut of a suit; the classic lines of a clipper ship.

Having historical or literary associations: classic battlefields of the Civil War.

n.

An artist, author, or work generally considered to be of the highest rank or excellence, especially one of enduring significance.

A work recognized as definitive in its field.

A literary work of ancient Greece or Rome.

classics The languages and literature of ancient Greece and Rome. Used with the.

One that is of the highest rank or class: The car was a classic of automotive design.

A typical or traditional example.

Informal. A superior or unusual example of its kind: The reason he gave for being late was a classic.

A traditional event, especially a major sporting event that is held annually: a golf classic.

[color:\\"red\\"] <span style="font-weight: bold">Cultivate your own capabilities, your own style. Appreciate the members of your family for who they are, even though their outlook or style may be miles different from yours. Rabbits don't fly. Eagles don't swim. Ducks look funny trying to climb. Squirrels don't have feathers. Stop comparing. There's plenty of room in the forest.--Chuck Swindoll </span>

[Steve Moskowitz]

I'm stunned that you just don't get it Mr. Hartman! Yes, most of us really do know the definitions of a classic car according to the CCCA (not that God gave them the definitive right to do so) and have no problem in seperating classic cars from other types of vintage cars. However, none of us are so anal as to berate someone for the improper use of terminology!

I have no problem with your attempts to educate folks on true classic cars but to insult someone who meant no harm is just plain wrong! Bill was pretty clear in his post that he was looking for cars in the 50s thru 70s so we got the picture rather easily. Too bad you did not. Be a man, accept that your post was ill-concieved and properly apologize to BIll.

[Guest]

I ain't no etymologist so I'll just stick to my coke classic {this is not an endorsement!}

[1937hd45]

Ownership of a "Classic" does not instantly give the owner class.

[Guest]

This never-ending blast of insult by Mr Hartmann is an outrage. I've been here for three or four years and it does not change. I think his verbal abuse of outsiders is unexcusable and extremely detrimental to the hobby. There are many, many people who have come here with the innocence or ignorance of a neophyte, asked a question or offered something for sale, only to be utterly and profoundly blasted by him. They do not return. What happens to the hobby? It gets a reputation as mean-spirited, unhelpful and repulsive. Is it any wonder that old cars are made into hot rods?

I have classic cars on and not on the CCCA list and fondly view them all as reminders of times and a way of life gone by.

I don't what you can do. I know what I would do.

BillP

[R W Burgess]

You fellows pay entirely too much attention to Hartmann. That's why he keeps doing such things,....for the attention. You should remember those antics from your school days. Mr. Thomas got his information posted and I'm sure the rest of us will help him in any way we can. That's why the majority of us are here,...to help people. My apologies to Mr. Thomas for the minorities!

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Pete,

The longer this goes on, the more I think you really owe ALL of us an apology. Classics (by any definition) aside, it is your arrogance and condescending attitude that I take exception to. I really thought that by now, you would have gone back, re-read this thread, realized that you came across as a real jerk wad, and apologized for having done so. Even if you feel you don't owe anyone an apology, I'd like to see you come on here and at least explain to us why not.

You know what I think? I think you're not a big enough man to admit when you're wrong.

[Guest]

Wow, and I thought us early instrument collectors were a contentious lot!i.e. the "classic" early 17th cent. viols of John Rose vs. the "neoclassic" 18th cent models of Barak Norman.

It seems every facet of collecting highlights that most distinctively human trait of controversy, well, maybe it's cathartic, after all the shrinks say that an individual's tolerance of contradiction is the key to a healthy, grounded persona...................... and I've seen plenty of that here!

[56clipper]

Thank you, Amphicar, for posting the dictionary definition of "classic." Maybe Peter will read it, go and yell at Webster's for not knowing the definition of classic and leave us alone!

[ronbarn]

Some of you seem to be missing one important point regarding the term "classic". CCCA DOES own the word Classic® - that is with the registered trademark. Only that word with the trademark applies to their list. Use of the word classic in its generic sense is anyones right. I have no problem with the more universal use. Now what about the guy that asked what model your car is and you give him the actual model number and not the year?

[Guest]

Post deleted by peterg

[Guest Skyking]

Peter G, do to the post above me, I think you sould have the poll again about Anonymous's using this web sight.......

[Guest]

Gariepy - when are you coming up here so I can buy you lunch, and give you a ride in a REAL car ?

In the mean-time, I think it would be most helpful if you, and/or at least one of these bad-tempered sore-heads would re-read mine of this date 7:56, and the excellent description of the word classic in the 8:39 (NOW do you guys see why we picked this little-used word for the CCCA)...? and DISCUSS IN DETAIL, PRECISELY WHAT YOU AGREE, OR DISAGREE WITH. I think it would be very helpful to all car buffs reading these posts, to have a calm, dispassionate discussion on exactly where you guys think I have mis-lead you ? Is there a SINGLE ONE of you guys with the guts to discuss this in an adult manner, so that we can all learn something ?

Pete Hartmann

[Dave@Moon]

Peter H.,

The "we" that chose that word "Classic" for the CCCA organization performed that function fifty years ago. I don't know how influential you were in that group, but I'd wager to say that at the time it was chosen to avoid the very stigma of the patrician attitude that you've so aptly displayed here.

The CCCA could have used a more elitist term, however at that time (1952) it was largely composed of people who found the remains of these cars on used car back lots and in barns. They were not of the patrician set. They were a group of common car restorers (mostly) who had found a class of cars very recent to them that had been passed by in their age. By providing a special designation for them these cars were singled out for special preservation, <span style="font-style: italic">not for purposes of conceit!</span>

The designation of the car as a "Classic" was (I hope) never intended as a put-down to those of us who follow and enjoy the collection of other types of cars. [color:\\"red\\"] (Such as the two different companies <span style="font-style: italic">named</span> Classic Motor Company who built cars in the late 'teens and early 20's.)

Both of the posts you just cited in your defense reek of exactly that type of elitist, self-important perspective. It may well be unintended, but it's presence is certainly being felt here by a wide range of people who normally don't agree on anything.

Unfortunately, for better or worse, the car hobby is a pursuit of relatively wealthy men and women. I seriously doubt that there is a post on this thread that came from somone who ate at a soup kitchen tonight. Most people are somewhat self-consicous of their wealth, and try not to use their hobbies (including this one) to lord themselves over their fellow man.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Anything presumably posted in our name which even has a taste of pretension will [color:\\"red\\"] not be a welcome contribution for most of us!</span>

Adult enough?

[rocketraider]

Time to rant 'n' rave, I think... there's sure plenty of it going on now.

Skyking- some people have valid reasons to remain anonymous. To revile someone without being man enough to reveal one's identity is not one of those reasons.

[Dave@Moon]

By the way, if you believe that they stopped making cars of the Duesenberg class in 1948; spend 10 minutes inside an Aston-Martin Lagonda and you'll realize that your argument is anachronistic as well as offensive to many.

[ex98thdrill]

Lighten up Francis!!