Rotary Valves

[56Roadmaster]

This is directed to you first L.I. Stellite ( by the way do you affiliate yourself with the Cobalt alloy (trade name stellite) used in valve and valve seat applications and a source of lingering radiation in reactor plants from Co-60?)

Have you ever seen an engine that used some form of rotating disk to take the place of the poppet valves?- Willy's 'sludge' valve doesn't count. I mean like a cicular disk with a port through the disk either parallel or perpendicular to the drive axis.

Reason I ask you first is that judging from your posts you have had the wonderful opportunity to run a wide scope of some very early and interesting stuff. I being much younger have only had the privilage of working on some of it.

[Guest]

The Itala first comes to mind although they were rotating cylinders with oblique ports.

I think the American Speedwell had them also,being cylindrical they were sealed with piston or "junk"rings as they were called.

It seems the kind of valve you describe with a rotating disk would really suffer from sealing problems but that's not to say they didn't exist, I know of one marine engine {naphtha operated} that used such a valve but it was a non-compression motor. I'll have to dig out some old books.

By the way, the name Stellite refers to a veteran British light car I had until recently but it was a struggle to get in and out since I'm 6'5".

[Guest]

A valve with a circular disc rotating around an axis that forms a diameter is called a butterfly valve. They are more common in large diameter gas piping (think refinery/petrochemical). Mechanical damage to the relatively weak disc will ruin the seal.

[56Roadmaster]

Thanks LI I will see if i can find something on the speedwell. That sounds like what i am thinking of. To anonymus, yes the butter fly does rotate on a shaft as such but that is not what i had in mind. Picture a thick disk with a port drilled or cast into it which aligns the int/exh ports to the combustion chamber as it is driven around similar to a cam shaft.

[randjflo60]

Piaggio, the company that made Vespa and Allstate motor scooters used rotary valve 2 cycle engines in the 50's and 60's. My 64 Allstate has the rotary valve just like you describe. It is basically an indentation in the cam that as it spins it picks up the fuel/air mixture and passes it into the cylinder at the bottom of the stroke. On the upstroke it compresses. Then after the spark plug fires and the piston is on it's down stroke the piston passes the exhaust port (which has no valve) the exhaust is expelled.

These engines work very will and get about 125 miles per gallon. A 150 cc will develope about 4.5 hp.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to explain.

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Have seen these illustrated in Dyke's Manual, but not associated w/ any specific manufacturer like Knight and the sleeve-valve.

From the cross section in Dykes (1922 edition) it looked like there were two valve shafts ("cam"shafts) running down the block, on either side of the cylinders (a la "T" head), near the top, with ports on either side, and a passage bored accross the diameter of said shaft, and as the shaft rotated(timed to the crank, like a cam), the passage would line up with the cylinder& manifold ports, and thus admit/expel gases.

Dyke's also noted that this was a "poor breathing design".

I guess in the early days of the internal combustion engine, poppet valves gave enough trouble (burning, sticking, swallowing) that designers looked for an(y) alternative.

It seems that this might also derive from the Corliss-type valve from the Steam engine days.

That's as much as I know about 'em...

(Someday, I hope to be able to scan some of these illustrations out of Dyke's, and include them w/ my posts.)

Nice weather this week end- hope to drive my "poppet valve" De Soto a bit!

[Guest]

Frank where can i get a copy of the Dykes manual - that is exactly what I am looking for. Thanks, Scott, 56 roadmaster

[nearchoclatetown]

i'm not frank, but i found one at an auction a few years ago. mine is a 1939 edition, paid about $15 for it and you nor anyone else couldn't buy it for $100. they're about 3 inches thick and explain everything you ever wanted to know about a car. happy hunting.

[Guest]

I think I've got a spare Dyke's for you, it is a 1930 edition but the info inside goes back at least 20 years previous, lemme dig it out tomorrow, if I find it $30.00 plus shipping makes it yours. Email me privately please.

[Guest]

Hey LI,

please check your email.

Thanks 56 roadmaster

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

56 Roadmaster,

Not trying to brag, or anything, but I found my 1922(?) edition of Dyke's in a local antique shop for about $3.00, around eight years ago.

It's hard-bound, with a blue cloth cover w/ white embossed lettering on the coverboard & spine.

Sometimes you find a real treasure for cheap; I was really lucky that day!

The same shop also had a beautiful multi-volume auto encycplopaedia set bound in red leatherette with gilt edging on the pages, beautiful marbled end-papers and beautiful color plates; I passed on it because it was from about 1908(too early for my interests at the time), and I felt I couldn't spare the cash at the time.

I now wish I had dug deep and got that set too- ah well...

Hope you find a Dyke's- there's a lot of "history" in them, as well as sound theory and practical data- wait till you read the sections on tire repair!

Good Hunting!

Frank

[Guest]

Frank,

I appreciate the input, I usaull search down deals but I think price is fair, some times you steal it, some times its ok others you pay if you really want it been at all three types one time or another.

Thanks, Scott (56 'Rustmaster')

would yo take $6.00 ----only kiddding!!!!

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Really wasn't trying to knock the price in question (although re-reading my previous post might come off that way...); my main point was, I was really fortunate to have found my copy for a song; especially in a shop that tends to run 'high' on other antiques.

(My secondary point is, sometimes you find good books in unlikely places...)

For what it's worth, I just spent a little over $40 on a history of Chrysler Corp, a memoir by Carl Breer, which is much more a fond remembrance of Breer, Zeder & Skelton's triumphs in the early auto industry, than it is a technical compendium, and one of Barnes & Nobles on-line reviewers thought it "grossly overpriced"; but I wanted it and didn't feel like hunting, so there it is...

At any rate, enjoy the Dykes- even if someone were to reprint them, I'm sure they wouldn't be cheap by anyone's standards!

Cheers....