glennb49

1989 16 valve 5speed TC need help getting running

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The stock mufflers are fairly quiet. They have a little bit of tone to them, but nothing to write home about.

 

If you are interested in more sound, here's some things to keep in mind for turbo cars: bigger *is* better, and it will have a deeper tone to it the bigger you go. 3" *will* fit without rubbing, but it's tight around the rear suspension. The turbo already muffles a lot of noise, stay away from chambered mufflers (Super Turbo type is the worst acceptable type). A high flow catalytic converter won't hurt performance and reduces both sound level and drone. I have personally run both Dynomax Ultraflo and Borla XR-1. I personally like how the Borla sounds on our cars, but it's always subjective.

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OK I guess I stick with the stock muffler Where can I order an odometer gear? I was told there are cheap $5.00 ones that only last a short while! and $35.00 ones that are long lasting. any body had problems with the $5.00 one?, Now if intermittent miss in cylinder 2 would heal! Have Sea Foam in oil and gas plus Marvel Mystery in oil. Met Andy Kane at Mopar car show Sunday ,He has a beautiful burgundy 16 valve and he said bent valves are common, there are new and improved valves available now. But cost of around $2K to redo head ! Any input would be appreciated. Got engine bay cleaned up last night, looks much better! Still not sure which TC to keep, What are the pros and cons of 16 verses 8 valve? Know there are many more $$$ in upkeep and repair on 16 valve but the fun of driving and rarity is very tempting!   Thanks again to you guys in helping me get this TC back on the road.  

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This car has come a long way in just a week! Brought home on trailer Saturday 6-1 to up and driving and first car show on Sunday the 9!! The Mopar crowd was all over it! Thanks guys for all your input!

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I think "www.odometergears.com" or something like that. I'm pretty sure there's a thread with a link, too. Even though $35 is a *LOT* for those tiny gears, the only other option I know of is getting an OEM one that will eventually fail as well.

 

These cars (*all* turbo MOPARs) have a stumble at idle for some reason. When exactly are you experiencing the miss?

 

Yes, the 16V cars are known to have issues with the exhaust valves and the guides. Metallurgy wasn't as good back then, so the materials used weren't as good as they should have been. Yes, getting the head rebuilt is not inexpensive and parts either have to be custom made or modified. The plus side is, once it's done...it's done. The engines are non-interference, so as long as something catastrophic doesn't happen, the hard parts should be good for the life of the car at that point. Get a hold of Rick Diogo at RDI.

 

Once the engine is up to snuff, really there's not much upkeep that's different compared to the 8V. It's just that the engine is so rare that people are afraid of them. The expense comes if you want to build the engine. I would highly suggest getting a new valve cover gasket from Joel. They are $150, but the new ones are a better design, use better material than the original (DO NOT throw the original away!).

 

Between an 8V and a 16V car, I'd go 16V *EVERY* time...no reason to really not. Plus they *will* hold their value and possibly appreciate as time goes on. TC's in general will most likely plateau in price within the next 5 years as the parts cars and beaters get weeded out.

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I agree totally with everything Reaper said.  Here are some random thoughts:

 

Are your plugs not only the correct ones, but are they ok?  It sounds like they've been through a lot in the last few months and could have been damaged, so it might be worth it to replace them before incurring the expense & aggravation of a head job.  BTW, $2,000 sounds a bit steep.  I bought a 16v engine with a bad head gasket and had the head rebuilt (2 bent valves) for $900 plus guides & seals which I got from Rick D. 

 

I've replaced the odo gears in 2 TC's and both turned out fine - which is somewhat remarkable given my mediocre mechanical skills.  I've also redone 3  valve cover gaskets without incident, or leaks.

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The intermittent miss is more noticeable at idle and it can be felt, bucks , around town when in first and second. Out on road its not noticeable, plenty of zip! Its got new plugs ,cap, rotor and $200.00 wires! Thankfully included with car!! Thinking bad injector , sticking or bent rod. Need to take compression check. Thanks for confirming its noninterference, that's a relief! Yes $900.00 is much better than $2K. As mild as the miss is If I keep the car Ill just keep driving it as is and hope it heals. this will be the fourth gear change for me, had to do it in my previous 3TCs. I just take the gear out of any 90s Mopar and have had good luck with them holding up. grease did not dry out on US built Mopars!  Thanks for putting my mind at ease with the $$ of maintain a 16 valve, Im leaning on keeping it! Ill watch the video to refresh my memory to!! Thanks again all for the input!! That's my 8 valve with trunk down,  The 16 valve is actually cleaning up to be nicer than the 8 valve!

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Posted (edited)

The only other item that I can think of off the top of my head for the 16V engines that is costly and hard to get are rod bearings. They are *not* the same as the Chrysler ones and can't be interchanged. It sounds to me like this engine is in decent shape and has been taken care of. The ones I have taken apart can't have that said about them, but in every case the main bearings are OK (standard Chrysler), but the rod bearings are either worn or the babbitt is flaking off (beyond the other catastrophic failures due to bad mechanics or owners). I have nothing to back me up, but my thinking is that most of these cars sit for long periods of time and the motor oil becomes acidic and starts eating at the babbitting. Having an oil analysis done could possibly tell you if you have bearings going out if you don't want to go through the effort of popping the pan off and physically looking at the bearing shells.

 

Timing belts, seals, etc. are all still available, just have to do some legwork sometimes. This group is pretty good about sharing information on what interchanges, so you shouldn't have to worry about that too much.

 

Oh, the miss sounds fairly typical, though usually it goes away with some revs. Might be a sticky injector.

Edited by Reaper1 (see edit history)

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23 minutes ago, Reaper1 said:

The only other item that I can think of off the top of my head for the 16V engines that is costly and hard to get are rod bearings. They are *not* the same as the Chrysler ones and can't be interchanged.

Well now, you guys have arrived at the one problem area on the 16V TC engine. 

There are 2 ways to overcome this situation in my view.

 

The first one will be 'MY' fix. Probably most everyone else, their last resort.

When I rebuilt the engine on my Yellow 16V TC, seen and described on the AACA website which you can see and read if you click my links, I had already had sufficient experience with finding connecting rod bearings for the 16V engine that I decided for a different resolution.

I decided to use a forged crankshaft from an 8 valve TC engine. This way the engine would have easily acquired bearings, both rods and mains. That also meant I had to use the HD connecting rods from an 8V engine. So far, so good. The hitch was the wrist pins on the 16V engine. The wrist pins are a smaller diameter than the wrist pins on the 8V engines. Since I wanted to use the stock 16V pistons, the wrist pin bushings in the 8V rods had to have a smaller inside diameter for the 16V pistons wrist pins.

This was simply accomplished by my machine shop. Raw stock can be acquired to fit the rod's small end inside diameter and can then be machined to the proper tolerances for the smaller wrist pins.

So now all the parts fit together and in this configuration, the engine was built. The car and engine are still running fine though at least 3 different owners have owned that TC since me. In my view, that is the better way to rebuild this engine for normal driving and it does not affect the performance in any way. 

 

The story of finding the correct rod bearings for the 16V TC engine, for another time.

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Hopefully I don't have to go there any time soon! Have to get compression test and at least know where to go from there, plug seems not to be fouling. If it wasn't for the bucking I wouldn't even know it was missing its so irregular out the tail pipe. Take the wire off and its a steady miss out the tail pipe! Have to get back to my other project today, though I don't enjoy it nearly as much, Painting the barn!! Know any one who wants a nice clean 81K 8 valve? $4500.00 OBO.

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New Problem of my own making. I cleaned engine compartment Monday and lightly rinsed off. 24 hours later started, now idle is up and down to point of all most killing. Give it some gas and it evens out. Put in gear it stumbles big time but keeps running, At stop sign idle is up and down and stumbles again. Out on road its good, drive 15 miles at 65 , at home idle is now good, shut off , restart this morning and idle is back to up and down, give it some gas and after a little bit idle smooths out, did not drive yet today. Check engine lite is on and off. The code I got was 1 pause 3 pause 5 pause then 5. What does this tell me? Did I get the computer wet? I checked down in spark plug holes and took coil wire off coil and sprayed silicone spry in coil and on computer feed wires. You would think after 40 miles of driving it would have dried out by now. Help!     

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15 minutes ago, glennb49 said:

New Problem of my own making. I cleaned engine compartment Monday and lightly rinsed off. 24 hours later started, now idle is up and down to point of all most killing. Give it some gas and it evens out. Put in gear it stumbles big time but keeps running, At stop sign idle is up and down and stumbles again. Out on road its good, drive 15 miles at 65 , at home idle is now good, shut off , restart this morning and idle is back to up and down, give it some gas and after a little bit idle smooths out, did not drive yet today. Check engine lite is on and off. The code I got was 1 pause 3 pause 5 pause then 5. What does this tell me? Did I get the computer wet? I checked down in spark plug holes and took coil wire off coil and sprayed silicone spry in coil and on computer feed wires. You would think after 40 miles of driving it would have dried out by now. Help!     

Check all the VACUUM hoses around and to & from the MAP sensor. the #13 code indicates [MAP SENSOR pneumatic circuit] #55 indicates [end of test]

It is so easy to break the small, hard plastic lines. Repair with short piece of rubber vacuum hose that fits snugly, using something like carburetor spray into the piece of hose you are about to use, SO IT SLIPS ONTO THE HARD PLASTIC LINE EASILY

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I totally agree with Hemi. Check the vacuum lines. The hard nylon lines get brittle over time and the rubber elbow under the intake gets dry rotted.

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When I pulled the hose off the top of the map sensor there were bubbles coming out of the tub that it pushes onto. the engine was running .It did make it run either faster or slower with the hose off. I blew through the hose put it back on and the idle picked up and when I drove it no more stumble when starting in first. So thought it was water in map sensor. Let sit all day and started at 6pm, started out on normal idle then did the same up and down idle again, it almost kills but not quite! Swapped map sensors from 8 valve and same results, Is the vacuum source for the map sensor under the intake? Ill Check that next. The code still comes up 13 for map sensor. Thanks for the input guys.     

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3 minutes ago, glennb49 said:

When I pulled the hose off the top of the map sensor there were bubbles coming out of the tub that it pushes onto. the engine was running .It did make it run either faster or slower with the hose off. I blew through the hose put it back on and the idle picked up and when I drove it no more stumble when starting in first. So thought it was water in map sensor. Let sit all day and started at 6pm, started out on normal idle then did the same up and down idle again, it almost kills but not quite! Swapped map sensors from 8 valve and same results, Is the vacuum source for the map sensor under the intake? Ill Check that next. The code still comes up 13 for map sensor. Thanks for the input guys.     

 

Yes.   My question to you, do you have good vacuum at that hose attached at the MAP sensor? You also have the barometric relay that the vacuum passes through. 

Ia everything along the line in good shape?  Did you clear the code 13 in the SMEC before checking again?  Iis locked in until cleared. It will go away after a time, but you didn’t want to wait that long. I don’t suppose you have a diagnosis tester like a Snap-On 2500, do you?

I’ll be looking for your answers.

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No Hemi I don't feel any vacuum at the hose to the map sensor , is the barometric relay attached to the map sensor if yes then it got swapped too. So it must not be getting any vacuum from sorce under intake. Now if I can figure which fitting that is at the vacuum sorce! No I don't have a scanner so it will just have to go away by itself. Ill look into it tomorrow morning, Almost have that barn wall all green, good painting weather today!

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Glenn, notice that the vacuum 'signal' coming from the manifold, passes through the Baro Relay before it gets to the MAP Sensor, so when you wrote that you saw water bubbles when you removed the hose from the MAP sensor, be sure that the Baro Relay is clear of water as well as all the vacuum lines.

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I was removing the hose from the top of the Baro Relay when I saw the bubbles and when I thought I felt no vacuum , This morning I disconnected the hose going into the Baro Relay and I had good vacuum and that in turn should feed the Map sensor? I also had vacuum off the top of Baro Relay this morning so the Map sensor is getting vacuum. The Map sensor from the 8 valve is on the 16 valve car yet so there should be no water in it, plus the 16 valve map sensor is still on the 8 valve and it runs fine so there must not be any water in it, should I take my air gun and blow into the vacuum feed line ?, This morning when I started it from cold it was back to idling up and down from 15 down to 5 RPM and the engine died a couple times. I gave it some gas up to 15 RPM for a while and the idle evened out and ran OK then. I looked for vacuum leaks and have found none so far! Hoses all look good by manifold, took connections apart behind battery and they look all right. The Map sensor code is still flashing so must still have something to do with it!! thanks Hemi for your input, Whish I never cleaned the engine!! Jazmin is my submissive Sheltie who is always by my side!

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Glenn, you wrote;

"I was removing the hose from the top of the Baro Relay when I saw the bubbles and when I thought I felt no vacuum , This morning I disconnected the hose going into the Baro Relay and I had good vacuum and that in turn should feed the Map sensor? I also had vacuum off the top of Baro Relay this morning so the Map sensor is getting vacuum. The Map sensor from the 8 valve is on the 16 valve car yet so there should be no water in it, plus the 16 valve map sensor is still on the 8 valve and it runs fine so there must not be any water in it, should I take my air gun and blow into the vacuum feed line ?"  NO!

 

"This morning when I started it from cold it was back to idling up and down from 15 down to 5 RPM and the engine died a couple times. I gave it some gas up to 15 RPM for a while and the idle evened out and ran OK then. I looked for vacuum leaks and have found none so far! Hoses all look good by manifold, took connections apart behind battery and they look all right. The Map sensor code is still flashing so must still have something to do with it!! thanks Hemi for your input, Whish I never cleaned the engine!! Jazmin is my submissive Sheltie who is always by my side!"

 

As you wrote "no" to my question about the Diagnostic Tester, EVERYTHING we can say would be just guessing.

The increase and decrease of the RPM would suggest that the AIS motor is working, but if the throttle is stationary, there should not be a cause for the RPM fluctuation. 

So, that would lead me to thinking that the fluctuation is due to changing fuel mixture which is directly a result of MAP sensor variation. 

Then you write that after opening the throttle and running the engine at a steady 1500 RPM, the engine idled evenly (at whatever RPM) that might have been.

That would let me lean toward the TPS. Yet there is little chance that it got water into it since it is sealed.

(The problem here is that we have no input/output readings from the SMEC. Therefore no way to say anything for certain.)

SO, EVERYONE, CHIME IN WITH YOUR THOUGHTS.     

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Hemi, I took vacuum feed off map sensor and sucked on it and got a mount full of watered down gas! put back on and it ran good for several minutes then back to up and down idle. After several more mouth fulls each less than the previous mouth full it seems to be starting and keeping a nice steady idle of about 12RPM Good on road too. when running and I unhook vacuum feed it has good vacuum. I sucked on the 8 valve and it tasted of gas too but no liquid in it. How is watered down gas getting into the vacuum line to the map sensor.? Is it tied into the charcoal canister? I think this was the fix, Ill keep checking for more water and hope its all out! 

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1 hour ago, glennb49 said:

Hemi, I took vacuum feed off map sensor and sucked on it and got a mount full of watered down gas! put back on and it ran good for several minutes then back to up and down idle. After several more mouth fulls each less than the previous mouth full it seems to be starting and keeping a nice steady idle of about 12RPM Good on road too. when running and I unhook vacuum feed it has good vacuum. I sucked on the 8 valve and it tasted of gas too but no liquid in it. How is watered down gas getting into the vacuum line to the map sensor.? Is it tied into the charcoal canister? I think this was the fix, Ill keep checking for more water and hope its all out! 

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Cute dog, man’s best friend...

You likely have a ruptured diaphragm in the FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR. 

That is the only way to introduce fuel into the vacuum limes.

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Yesterday morning back to up and down idle, sucked more gas tasting water out of map sensor feed. Talked to long time Chrysler tech and he said K cars were known for collecting water in map sensor feed, he said to use air gun and blow back into to line, that water will just go into intake. take off map sensor and tap it lightly to get water out!. the 8 valve also taste like gas but no water so don't think its ruptured fuel pressure regulator. But still don't know how water is getting into vacuum line. Had lots of interest in the pair at Fathers Day car show here in park yesterday. That's my 53 Skylark and 57 International Golden Jubilee, Both are special 50 anniversary models . 

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Yup, bad fuel pressure regulator. When I saw you say "bubbles in the vacuum line" that was my immediate "go-to". This would certainly cause poor idle and surging while driving.

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Hemi. I sucked on the top port of the wastegate solenoid and got a mouth of watered down gas there also. Is this another sigh of a bad fuel pressure regulator? What are the chances it going bad the day after I rinsed of the engine! Is it the same as the 8 valve? Its right on top on the 8 valve but looks like radiator has to come back out to get to the 16 valve! Hope I can get one at parts store and not big $$  Glad you like my 53 Skylark. My dad had a 53 Special when I was a kid and I was fascinated by the Skylark when we parked next to one at the grocery store. I thought some one had customized it!   

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