1989 16 valve 5speed TC need help getting running

[glennb49]

No Hemi I don't feel any vacuum at the hose to the map sensor , is the barometric relay attached to the map sensor if yes then it got swapped too. So it must not be getting any vacuum from sorce under intake. Now if I can figure which fitting that is at the vacuum sorce! No I don't have a scanner so it will just have to go away by itself. Ill look into it tomorrow morning, Almost have that barn wall all green, good painting weather today!

[Garnet & Gold]

If you switch the ignition ON-OFF 50 times it will clear the fault codes.  Another way to clear the codes is to disconnect the battery for 10 minutes.  See URL http://minimopar.net/fault/ this is a great website on faults but not as good as Hemi and Reaper.

[Hemi Dude]

Glenn, notice that the vacuum 'signal' coming from the manifold, passes through the Baro Relay before it gets to the MAP Sensor, so when you wrote that you saw water bubbles when you removed the hose from the MAP sensor, be sure that the Baro Relay is clear of water as well as all the vacuum lines.

[glennb49]

I was removing the hose from the top of the Baro Relay when I saw the bubbles and when I thought I felt no vacuum , This morning I disconnected the hose going into the Baro Relay and I had good vacuum and that in turn should feed the Map sensor? I also had vacuum off the top of Baro Relay this morning so the Map sensor is getting vacuum. The Map sensor from the 8 valve is on the 16 valve car yet so there should be no water in it, plus the 16 valve map sensor is still on the 8 valve and it runs fine so there must not be any water in it, should I take my air gun and blow into the vacuum feed line ?, This morning when I started it from cold it was back to idling up and down from 15 down to 5 RPM and the engine died a couple times. I gave it some gas up to 15 RPM for a while and the idle evened out and ran OK then. I looked for vacuum leaks and have found none so far! Hoses all look good by manifold, took connections apart behind battery and they look all right. The Map sensor code is still flashing so must still have something to do with it!! thanks Hemi for your input, Whish I never cleaned the engine!! Jazmin is my submissive Sheltie who is always by my side!

[Hemi Dude]

Glenn, you wrote;

"I was removing the hose from the top of the Baro Relay when I saw the bubbles and when I thought I felt no vacuum , This morning I disconnected the hose going into the Baro Relay and I had good vacuum and that in turn should feed the Map sensor? I also had vacuum off the top of Baro Relay this morning so the Map sensor is getting vacuum. The Map sensor from the 8 valve is on the 16 valve car yet so there should be no water in it, plus the 16 valve map sensor is still on the 8 valve and it runs fine so there must not be any water in it, should I take my air gun and blow into the vacuum feed line ?"  NO!

 

"This morning when I started it from cold it was back to idling up and down from 15 down to 5 RPM and the engine died a couple times. I gave it some gas up to 15 RPM for a while and the idle evened out and ran OK then. I looked for vacuum leaks and have found none so far! Hoses all look good by manifold, took connections apart behind battery and they look all right. The Map sensor code is still flashing so must still have something to do with it!! thanks Hemi for your input, Whish I never cleaned the engine!! Jazmin is my submissive Sheltie who is always by my side!"

 

As you wrote "no" to my question about the Diagnostic Tester, EVERYTHING we can say would be just guessing.

The increase and decrease of the RPM would suggest that the AIS motor is working, but if the throttle is stationary, there should not be a cause for the RPM fluctuation. 

So, that would lead me to thinking that the fluctuation is due to changing fuel mixture which is directly a result of MAP sensor variation. 

Then you write that after opening the throttle and running the engine at a steady 1500 RPM, the engine idled evenly (at whatever RPM) that might have been.

That would let me lean toward the TPS. Yet there is little chance that it got water into it since it is sealed.

(The problem here is that we have no input/output readings from the SMEC. Therefore no way to say anything for certain.)

SO, EVERYONE, CHIME IN WITH YOUR THOUGHTS.     

[glennb49]

Hemi, I took vacuum feed off map sensor and sucked on it and got a mount full of watered down gas! put back on and it ran good for several minutes then back to up and down idle. After several more mouth fulls each less than the previous mouth full it seems to be starting and keeping a nice steady idle of about 12RPM Good on road too. when running and I unhook vacuum feed it has good vacuum. I sucked on the 8 valve and it tasted of gas too but no liquid in it. How is watered down gas getting into the vacuum line to the map sensor.? Is it tied into the charcoal canister? I think this was the fix, Ill keep checking for more water and hope its all out! 

[Hemi Dude]

1 hour ago, glennb49 said:

Hemi, I took vacuum feed off map sensor and sucked on it and got a mount full of watered down gas! put back on and it ran good for several minutes then back to up and down idle. After several more mouth fulls each less than the previous mouth full it seems to be starting and keeping a nice steady idle of about 12RPM Good on road too. when running and I unhook vacuum feed it has good vacuum. I sucked on the 8 valve and it tasted of gas too but no liquid in it. How is watered down gas getting into the vacuum line to the map sensor.? Is it tied into the charcoal canister? I think this was the fix, Ill keep checking for more water and hope its all out! 

Cute dog, man’s best friend...

You likely have a ruptured diaphragm in the FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR. 

That is the only way to introduce fuel into the vacuum limes.

[glennb49]

Yesterday morning back to up and down idle, sucked more gas tasting water out of map sensor feed. Talked to long time Chrysler tech and he said K cars were known for collecting water in map sensor feed, he said to use air gun and blow back into to line, that water will just go into intake. take off map sensor and tap it lightly to get water out!. the 8 valve also taste like gas but no water so don't think its ruptured fuel pressure regulator. But still don't know how water is getting into vacuum line. Had lots of interest in the pair at Fathers Day car show here in park yesterday. That's my 53 Skylark and 57 International Golden Jubilee, Both are special 50 anniversary models . 

[Reaper1]

Yup, bad fuel pressure regulator. When I saw you say "bubbles in the vacuum line" that was my immediate "go-to". This would certainly cause poor idle and surging while driving.

[glennb49]

Hemi. I sucked on the top port of the wastegate solenoid and got a mouth of watered down gas there also. Is this another sigh of a bad fuel pressure regulator? What are the chances it going bad the day after I rinsed of the engine! Is it the same as the 8 valve? Its right on top on the 8 valve but looks like radiator has to come back out to get to the 16 valve! Hope I can get one at parts store and not big $$  Glad you like my 53 Skylark. My dad had a 53 Special when I was a kid and I was fascinated by the Skylark when we parked next to one at the grocery store. I thought some one had customized it!   

[Hemi Dude]

Your reply is in an email to you.

[glennb49]

Thanks again Hemi . Ill try to get the incoming hose off ,Will sucking on it by mouth be enough to test it? Ill also see if its available at parts store. wonder what would happen if you used a 8 valve? they look they look the same? 

[Reaper1]

The fuel pressure regulator should be the same for all turbo engines (at least '87-newer). Our pressure is 55psi static (no vacuum reference while running).

 

My personal guess is that fuel sat in it and slowly degraded the diaphragm. It was on the verge of failure and it just so happened to pick the day you cleaned everything to finally fully let go. I don't think that was the cause at all.

 

I haven't tried to access the rail and all with the radiator in. At a minimum I would think the fan has to come out. If your fingers are nimble, and your sense of touch is good, you might be able to pull the whole rail without pulling the radiator. Another option would be to pull the intake. The intake gaskets are reusable (or are supposed to be).

 

2 10mm bolts hold the rail to the intake. I think it's 2 8mm nuts hold the FPR to the rail. When you go to put it back together, make sure the hole for the o-ring is clean and no burrs, and lube the o-ring (I use ATF) to help it seat easier.

[glennb49]

Thanks Reaper 1 I can get a used 8 valve if they are the same , They do have different part numbers, as Hemi gave me them. DOC is 55 psi and SOC was 48 psi so will that effect the run ability? Im getting pretty good at taking the radiator  and fan out just hope I can get to it then. Thanks for your help

[Hemi Dude]

Glenn, as I wrote you separately, being that the 2 Fuel Pressure Regulators have DIFFERENT part numbers and also mount differently, I do not think they are physically interchangeable either. I have not attempted a replacement such as you are considering and would recommend you wait until you have acquired the correct one.

[glennb49]

Hemi. I took out the radiator again and was able to get the fuel pressure regulator out and it looks identical to the one in my 8 valve. it has last four digits 6015 on it, made in Germany, 8 valve just says Borg. Know it is about 7 PSI less than 16 valve. 55PSI to 48PSI for 8 valve one. Im going to try a used one from an 8 valve and see how it behaves. Do you think seven pounds less will effect running? They made 501 16 valves? t 

[Hemi Dude]

4 hours ago, glennb49 said:

Hemi. I took out the radiator again and was able to get the fuel pressure regulator out and it looks identical to the one in my 8 valve. it has last four digits 6015 on it, made in Germany, 8 valve just says Borg. Know it is about 7 PSI less than 16 valve. 55PSI to 48PSI for 8 valve one. Im going to try a used one from an 8 valve and see how it behaves. Do you think seven pounds less will effect running? They made 501 16 valves?  

Yes, 501 TCs with 16V engines.

If you are that close, go ahead. I don't think the pressure differentials that are mention are correct.

As far as I read it, using both Factory manuals, all TURBO systems are regulated to 55 lb. max.

That is how I have been taught, V6 and Turbo vehicle run on 50-55 lb.    84-85  2.2L TBI also on 55 lb.    Late 2.2/2.5 (86 and up) TBI on 14 lb.

So if it indeed fits PROPERLY, go with it.

[Reaper1]

Agreed. I was unsure of the '84 turbo cars because they have a lot of unique things about them, even after I tried to look it up.

 

The V6 ones won't fit, so no worries there, but just as an information share the '87 (and maybe '88, this is off the top of my head) V6 cars use a lower pressure than the later years. Ironically the fuel pumps are the same between Turbo and V6.

 

I think the differences in the regulators are the return hard line that is screwed into them. They do interchange, but something in my head is telling me they are sold with that part on, hence the different numbers. I could be wrong, though.

 

As for the small amount of pressure affecting the running of the car, I seriously doubt it would even notice. It might actually *gain* power at WOT from being slightly less rich (they are SUPER conservative from the factory). The ECM programming has what's called "adaptives" built in that can account for roughly a 20% discrepancy from expected sensor inputs. WOT is the only time the computer doesn't utilize these corrections.

[glennb49]

And here I thought I just about had it all buttoned up. Got used correct pressure relief valve even the right part number. Installed and it literally fired right up. I should have had some one watching, It started but was running rough then I heard a wooosh and shut it off, emptied three estinguishers before got it out! I think if was not sealing where it enters the fuel rail, took out vacuum lines under  intake. Then the charcoal canister exploded and caught the bumper!! Will need to replace vacuum lines and some wiring, front bumper, grill. cornering light and paint rt fender. Im not a happy camper right now!! Could have been much worse. car cover on Plymouth started to melt, What do I do repair or sell as is, Any takers out there? whats it worth in current condition? Hemi or any body else  have a vacuum harness and grill? this was my first under hood fire, believe me it was very scary ! Glad I was not on the road! Fire Man Glenn. 

[Hemi Dude]

"And here I thought I just about had it all buttoned up. Got used correct pressure relief valve even the right part number. Installed and it literally fired right up. I should have had some one watching, It started but was running rough then I heard a wooosh and shut it off, emptied three estinguishers before got it out! I think if was not sealing where it enters the fuel rail, took out vacuum lines under  intake. Then the charcoal canister exploded and caught the bumper!! Will need to replace vacuum lines and some wiring, front bumper, grill. cornering light and paint rt fender. Im not a happy camper right now!! Could have been much worse. car cover on Plymouth started to melt, What do I do repair or sell as is, Any takers out there? whats it worth in current condition? Hemi or any body else  have a vacuum harness and grill? This was my first under hood fire, believe me it was very scary ! Glad I was not on the road! Fire Man Glenn. "

 

There are no words to express our SHOCK at seeing what transpired. It goes without saying that the accumulation of fuel throughout the vacuum lines combined with a totally gasoline filled canister indicates the extent of fuel infusion into what should be vapors and empty space.

Working on this car as you have, surely you were smelling fuel odors, STRONGLY! The name and contact information I already sent you along with Larry Carlson, also in AZ, will get you enough parts to repair this car if you wish to continue. Otherwise I'm sure someone would be interested in the engine and transaxle. 

RIP 16V TC.  I have no parts for your TC.

[Reaper1]

So, the "good news" is that the damage is mostly superficial and all of the important stuff survived it appears. The vacuum harness can be rebuilt out of commonly available new parts. The wiring on the engine side is easy as it's all the same wire colors, gauges, connectors and pin-outs as other turbo cars. The *car* side uses different connectors than any other turbo MOPAR that I've seen, but since the damage is on the passenger's side, those are probably OK. The charcoal canister is the same for all FWD K-based cars, so that's easy. You mentioned the side light, obviously the front bumper, what about the headlight, horn, and the ABS fuse box? It truly doesn't look all that bad.

 

I really feel bad for you. This sucks. As for what the car is "worth" as it sits...ugghh...it was a running/driving car that had a small fire. With some work and a couple of new parts it can be back on the road. Cost of the parts is unknown. The worst thing is the bumper just because getting one is a pain (not that they aren't out there, it's the shipping!). I think you had $4500 on it before the fire. Honestly, known good running *engines* can get $4k (you'll sit on it for a bit before getting that, though). I'd say you could move the car at $3k as it sits. I wish it were closer to me.

 

[glennb49]

thanks for the words of encouragement Reaper1 and Hemi. Yesterday I peeled back the melted black plastic tube covers and found the wires inside not damaged. there are several not protected that will have to be replaced, distributor pick up, and sensors! Vacuum lines under intake the worse and will need to find a diagram or pictures of routing with the Ts going to what and where. I have a complete white front bumper hanging in the rafters and rt cornering light lens and I do my own body work and painting so that saves $$ Just need a grill, have some feelers out , Know of two TC in area yards so I will be visiting them for inner fender and headlight bucket and vacuum lines. I hope to get back on road then sell or sell as is for 3K now. Wish me luck with this new chapter in my exciting venture into 16 valve ownership!   

[Reaper1]

Does the cowl cover not have the vacuum diagram on it?

 

I have pictures I took of my 16V before I took it apart that I can try and upload. I tried to document how wiring, vacuum, etc was routed and all. It might be of some use. I also still have the complete vacuum harness that I intend to use for a "template" to build a new one. I'll see if I can dig it out and take some pictures of that, too.

[glennb49]

Yes I now see the vacuum diagram on the cowl cover. I went to Alpine Valley resort in East Troy Wi. for  Dodge Turbo national and met up with Turbo Kane and he has agreed to come here and help me reroute vacuum lines , he says you can simplifie it by eliminating pollution and vapor canister. So for now you don't have to dig out your old harness, thanks for the offer!! It was great seeing all the turbo Chryslers!!  With mine four TCs two 16 valves! Found this Challenger 340 and Cornetts looking like they needed a new home , sign said not for sail!!  

[Hemi Dude]

3 hours ago, glennb49 said:

Yes I now see the vacuum diagram on the cowl cover. I went to Alpine Valley resort in East Troy Wi. for  Dodge Turbo national and met up with Turbo Kane and he has agreed to come here and help me reroute vacuum lines , he says you can simplifie it by eliminating pollution and vapor canister. So for now you don't have to dig out your old harness, thanks for the offer!! It was great seeing all the turbo Chryslers!!  With mine four TCs two 16 valves! Found this Challenger 340 and Cornetts looking like they needed a new home, sign said not for sail!!  

WOW, what cool MOPARS! Would love to visit that place. Glad you are getting some help. 

[Reaper1]

SDAC29 in full effect! The one TC is Jackson Simler's mom's car. It's a gem!

 

Yes, you can greatly reduce the amount of vacuum lines on our cars. Any 8V car I've had has always been reduced to only 4 vacuum lines with manual boost control (except the TC where the vacuum system was still in great shape and I didn't have to mess with it!). I would keep the vent hose hooked up to the charcoal canister to limit the amount of fuel vapor and smell under the hood and also keep the computer controlled boost.

[glennb49]

Yes that's what I was thinking of doing, The smell of gas under the hood will scare the bejesus out of me from now on!! Got wiring under intake pretty much all either replaced or re taped, soldered in new ends on distributor pickup and three other sensors , its looking much better! Next will be vacuum lines. Have new distributor pick up and fuel pressure regulator coming! thanks again for all you help. Fire Man Glenn.

[glennb49]

IT LIVES!!!!!! I finished making up vacuum lines Friday. Turbo Cane came today . Looked over my repairs and he made a few changes in routing of vacuum lines. Then he and I installed the new fuel pressure regulator checked for leaks then fired it up, It runs pretty good the short time had it running ,, so far no idling up and down!! Found the O ring damaged on the old pressure regulator that I installed so that was the source of the fire!! Next have to replace alternator, It got fried!! then install radiator and helpfully it will run better than before this major blank up on my part!! Then paint and install front bumper. Turbo Kane came through with a grill and other trim pieces!! Big hand of applause  goes out to all you guys for helping me through this fun venture into 16 valve ownership!! It will be for sale when done!!! Fire Man Glenn.     

[Hemi Dude]

2 hours ago, glennb49 said:

It will be for sale when done!!! Fire Man Glenn.   

So that is how you feel about your 16V TC?  After all this work, I would think you would be so attached to this car, or then again,  maybe you have learned the loving feeling of owning one of them that you want to share it with another. 😂😂🤣🤣

[glennb49]

Hemi. I really enjoy the driving part and the rarity but the complexity, rarity of parts and $$$ If some thing breaks, Is making me appreciate the not have to be afraid to drive it 8 valve!! 

[Hemi Dude]

I understand completely, that is why I sold my yellow 89 16V TC https://www.allpar.com/model/tc.html as well. I have had many but hang on to my FIRST TC, which now needs the head gasket replaced after so many years. 

[glennb49]

Hope to get it off the ramps which it hasn't moved from since the fire, and take for a ride today. Then into the shop for the body work!!

[glennb49]

Its been two weeks ago today since the fire! My short drive Tuesday went well with no surprises, had the fire extinguisher by my side! Yesterday got front bumper sanded and painted. Even got back to my favorite job, Scraping the barn!! Next will repair headlight wiring and install bumper. Have a happy Fourth every body and hopefully there wont be any fire works under the hood!! 

[glennb49]

The TC lives again!! Finished installing front bumper and runs better than ever. Time to sell $6K or best offer! This sure has been a fun and learning experience, Thanks every one for all your help!! Now back to scraping and painting!! Glenn.

[Hemi Dude]

You do nice work Glenn, good luck with finding a new owner for the yellow 16 valve car.