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1989 16 valve 5speed TC need help getting running


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Either take the radiator fan out or take the intake manifold off. If you have skinny arms/hands you *might* be able to get to it if you only take the airbox and intercooler tubes out of the way.

 

As for the no start condition, does it have any stored codes? What diagnosis have you done thus far?

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Thanks. Why cant it be right out in the open like my 89 regular 2.2 turbo!! I have pretty skinny arms so will try the air box and how do you get the intercooler tubes out of the way? Have not read codes yet . Just bringing the car home tomorrow, Then the fun begins!!

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Got radiator out and can now get my hands on distributor, still a pain though!! will read coeds today, The former owner was trying to replace plug wires through intake opening and its a mess. I will take cap off and insert wires like manual says,  what is the order to install them on the cap so I don't get them all switched and have engine miss? It would be nice if cap is numbered. Where do I get spark plug socket that will reach way down in head , must be very skinny! thanks Glenn. 

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On 5/31/2019 at 7:09 AM, glennb49 said:

Hi. How do you get to the distributor and wires on a 16 valve turbo 89 TC? The intake is in the way!! No spark, but turns over! Help Glenn.

I suggest that you FIRST verify that the timing belt is not broken and the is why you get no spark, cause the distributor shaft is not rotating. Does it sound as though it has good compression in all 4?

Did you just buy this car? Or has it been sitting without running for a long time?

You need to give us some more background on this, can't just pick an answer from thin air.

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Hi Hemi. Yes I just bought Saturday. The guy I bought from said it was running fine last fall when it started to miss and run erratically, He managed to make it home  where it sat till this spring. He found a cracked plug on cylinder 1 and cracked plug wire on one also. He bought $200.00 plug wires and plugs and tried to install wires through opening in intake runner. Had a mess and gave up, I bought and have radiator out and can now get my hand around distributor cap,  hope to get it out today and install new wires as instructed in shop manual. where do I get a 18 plug socket that is thin enough to go way down in the head and grasp the plug? I have juice at + terminal of coil and it popped a couple times when I turned it over yesterday. So it just might start when I get it all back together. It had 55 in stored code, What does that mean? I might keep this car if it runs good or sell it and keep my regular 89 TC, It has 107 K miles and is rust free and quite clean. Thanks for all your help. Glenn.    

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1 hour ago, glennb49 said:

Hi Hemi. Yes I just bought Saturday. The guy I bought from said it was running fine last fall when it started to miss and run erratically, He managed to make it home  where it sat till this spring. He found a cracked plug on cylinder 1 and cracked plug wire on one also. He bought $200.00 plug wires and plugs and tried to install wires through opening in intake runner. Had a mess and gave up, I bought and have radiator out and can now get my hand around distributor cap,  hope to get it out today and install new wires as instructed in shop manual. where do I get a 18 plug socket that is thin enough to go way down in the head and grasp the plug? I have juice at + terminal of coil and it popped a couple times when I turned it over yesterday. So it just might start when I get it all back together. It had 55 in stored code, What does that mean? I might keep this car if it runs good or sell it and keep my regular 89 TC, It has 107 K miles and is rust free and quite clean. Thanks for all your help. Glenn.    

Hi Glenn,  What you need is a 3/8" drive 5/8" spark plug socket. The 55 in the codes means (End of test) If you have no other code numbers, there are then NO codes in memory.

I took a picture of a spark plug, 5/8" socket and a tool to remove and install the spark plug into the head. The tool is any long screwdriver with a standard spark plug boot attached.

Use that to extract and install the spark plug, it is easier and safer than trying with the socket and extension. 

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A lot of plug sockets that are the correct hex size, but won't fit in the head. I suggest trying to find a thin-wall socket. As a work-around, you can grind the socket down in diameter to fit.

 

I agree with Hemi's tips. I have a piece of hose that I use to take plugs out and put them in.

 

Replace the fuel hoses ASAP!

 

Edited by Reaper1 (see edit history)
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5 minutes ago, Reaper1 said:

A lot of plug sockets that are the correct hex size, but won't fit in the head. I suggest trying to find a thin-wall socket. As a work-around, you can grind the socket down in diameter to fit.

 

I agree with Hemi's tips. I have a piece of hose that I use to take plugs out and put them in.

 

Replace the fuel hoses ASAP!

 

Reaper1 is right. If that 5/8” spark plug socket doesn’t fit, just try a SnapOn 3/8” drive socket. It has been some time since I had my 16 valve TC, I forgot that my spark plug didn’t fit.

Be sure to use fuel hose designed for the high pressure fuel-injection. Also use proper hose clamps.

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Well got cap off and found center tower with the contact burnt off so it wasn't making contact with rotor that also looked bad! Ordered and will be here today. That sure will be great if that's all it was but it coincides with the symptoms! I tried a 3/8 5/8 plug socket but I guess it wasn't deep enough, Ill keep you posted on what happens today with the new cap, rotor and wires installed. thanks for the help!! 

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Well the deep thin wall 5/8 socket did the trick,  And it fired right up and it runs on all 4!! So I guess it was just a bad cap and rotor. I sure lucked out!!  Will put radiator back in today and take for a drive, See how it shifts and brakes.  Do these fuel lines look like replacements with that steel cladding or is the cladding some one installed? Thanks guys for all your input and I'm anxious to see how this puppy performs!!!    

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That's great to hear the car runs as it should!

 

The stainless steel braided covers on the fuel lines are factory. They are there for abrasion protection. It does not appear that those lines have been touched, so I *highly* suggest them to be replaced. Make sure the hose you use is "Fuel Injection Hose". Pressure side is 5/16", return is 1/4". There's also a fuel filter under the car just ahead of the right rear tire with some rubber, and then again back at the tank for the pump.

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I replaced all four pieces of fuel line with injection hose, left the braiding off , would not go back on. I found filter by rear tire and it does look old, is filter for pump visible? or in tank? Well it was a hoot to drive! Need to get used to shift points and when to shift, seemed to bog out some when in fourth and fifth. Seemed to like to cruise best in fourth at about 60. It popped and hesitated some, I put in new gas , hope it will clear up, it was last run fall of 18. On my regular TC the waist gate must be stuck open so the turbo is on all the time, you can hear and feel it at stop sighs if you get on it. This one must be working right cause it makes this weird woosh noise between shifts when you get on it upshifting? As you see I'm no expert on these cars! No tail, parking or side marker lights. Fuse has power on both terminals, Must be broken wire back of fuse in fuse box or bad headlight switch? I jiggled the switch all around but they didn't momentarily come on, any ideas? Thanks again for all your help! Having fun,  66 years young old fart Glenn. 

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The pump filer (aka "sock") is in the tank. Having seen some recent posts of older cars getting their pumps replaced, it might be a good idea to replace it as well. With the new fuel having ethanol in it, that stuff loosens up dirt, varnish, etc. and clogs filters.

 

A "stuck *open*" wastegate would cause the turbo to actually be "off" all of the time (kind of). It definitely would be down on power.

 

The "woosh" you're hearing is the factory BOV (blow off valve) located inside of the airbox. This is also known as an "anti-surge valve". It releases excess boost pressure when the throttle blade is closed so that it doesn't back up and stall the turbo compressor (surge).  

 

For the lighting issues, that's just going to take some electrical detective work. It very well could be the switch or the connector for the switch. If you get to that point, you're going to have to pull the gauge bezel off. The trickiest part of that is getting the knob off of the headlight switch. Pull the switch out like you're turning the lights on. Where the metal shaft goes into the plastic knob, on the bottom, there's a small hole...use a pick or something similar to push in there, then pull the knob. When you do that, you're releasing a small metal tine that prevents the knob from just pulling off. You can get "aggressive" with it if you have to, but don't break the knob as they are TC specific to the best of my knowledge. From there it's kinda self explanatory how to do the rest.

 

HTH!!

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The tail, parking and side lights now work. I put a jumper wire from the brake light to the tail light cavity on one of the tail lite sockets, with the four ways on the tail and parking lights flashed along with side markers. except for rt parking light. replaced that bulb and suddenly every thing was working, must have been bad ground on rt parking light, I cleaned and scraped inside of socket. So I didn't have to mess with switch, Yes Iv been down that road removing the headlight switch and its a pain! Got exterior all cleaned up, next the interior! This is a really clean car! Are these cars that much more peppy than the regular 2.2s ?  My other regular TC with the automatic seems about the same. plus though I enjoy the stick its just easier to drive! which one do I keep!! What kind of money does a number 3 condition 5 speed bring? Thanks again for all your help!

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The 8V auto cars were 160hp,/~170tq, but the 16V cars are 200hp/220tq and no power sucking auto! It should be quite a bit more peppy than the 8V car. The V6 car would probably "feel" better around town just because of the flat torque curve and its instant down low torque, but it should be on par with the 8V for performance as those were 141hp/~180tq and the 4-speed auto.

 

The 5-speed cars are *RARE*...only 501 produced in 2 years. How much they're "worth" depends on a lot of factors, but anywhere from $4-10k isn't unreasonable, obviously the huge swing is dependent on the car's condition (I don't know what a "number 3 condition" means). From what I've seen in the pictures the car looks really nice. I'd venture to say you could easily ask $5k and get it, up to $7k. maybe. To get the upper amounts the car needs to have the umbrella and tool kit, maybe some other tid bits (FSM, hard top stand for example).

 

You are going to want to replace the brake accumulator bulb as it looks original. Firstly, it increases safety, secondly it increases the resale value since it's been done.

 

HTH!

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AND, while the brakes, the ABS system, is working properly. FLUSH every drop of brake fluid from the entire system. It may be 30 years old or maybe it has been flushed along the way, BUT if you encounter brake pedal fade, slowly going to the floor, while you are sitting at a traffic light, it is TOO LATE! 

Replace the Accumulator and flush the system.

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Well the more I drive it the better it runs! Put some Sea Foam in oil and gas and its much peppier now. Replaced rt front caliper today and cleaned interior. Next new muffler, I kindda  like the raspy sound with the rusted out muffler. How quite will it be with a stock muffler? How about a glass pack? Im beginning to think I just might keep it and sell the 8 valve! Thanks again for your imput!  

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You have a good eye Hemi. That's my 63 Savoy 4 door six stick that I took my driver test in in 1969! dad bought in Jan 64 , was a rental. I bought from him in 71 , so its been in the family 55 years!! Also own a 63 Sport Fury 383 4 Speed that Ive owned since 01 when I sold my real 426 Max Wedge 63 Sport Fury Convertible I bought in 1977 with a 273 auto in it , I discovered it was a real max wedge car in 99 and built a clone engine from a 413 out of a 63 Imp. Sold for the $$$. I bought my current 63 Sport Fury in 01, It is also white with red interior , I even rebuilt the 383 and 4 speed that was in the max wedge before I discovered it was a real max wedge three speed ,and installed in my current Sport Fury! The max wedge went out to Cal. and got a frame off and has been featured in several mags, turns out its a one of one being white with red interior max wedge 3 speed convertible!! I also bought my current 1953 Buick Skylark in 01  I know I should not have sold the max wedge but this way its like I still have my car before I discovered it was a max wedge car, less stress full to own and drive. Kind of like the 16 valve verses the 8 valve TCs!! And I got my best yet 53 Skylark from the $$$ selling the max wedge with some $$$ left over.  

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The stock mufflers are fairly quiet. They have a little bit of tone to them, but nothing to write home about.

 

If you are interested in more sound, here's some things to keep in mind for turbo cars: bigger *is* better, and it will have a deeper tone to it the bigger you go. 3" *will* fit without rubbing, but it's tight around the rear suspension. The turbo already muffles a lot of noise, stay away from chambered mufflers (Super Turbo type is the worst acceptable type). A high flow catalytic converter won't hurt performance and reduces both sound level and drone. I have personally run both Dynomax Ultraflo and Borla XR-1. I personally like how the Borla sounds on our cars, but it's always subjective.

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OK I guess I stick with the stock muffler Where can I order an odometer gear? I was told there are cheap $5.00 ones that only last a short while! and $35.00 ones that are long lasting. any body had problems with the $5.00 one?, Now if intermittent miss in cylinder 2 would heal! Have Sea Foam in oil and gas plus Marvel Mystery in oil. Met Andy Kane at Mopar car show Sunday ,He has a beautiful burgundy 16 valve and he said bent valves are common, there are new and improved valves available now. But cost of around $2K to redo head ! Any input would be appreciated. Got engine bay cleaned up last night, looks much better! Still not sure which TC to keep, What are the pros and cons of 16 verses 8 valve? Know there are many more $$$ in upkeep and repair on 16 valve but the fun of driving and rarity is very tempting!   Thanks again to you guys in helping me get this TC back on the road.  

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This car has come a long way in just a week! Brought home on trailer Saturday 6-1 to up and driving and first car show on Sunday the 9!! The Mopar crowd was all over it! Thanks guys for all your input!

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I think "www.odometergears.com" or something like that. I'm pretty sure there's a thread with a link, too. Even though $35 is a *LOT* for those tiny gears, the only other option I know of is getting an OEM one that will eventually fail as well.

 

These cars (*all* turbo MOPARs) have a stumble at idle for some reason. When exactly are you experiencing the miss?

 

Yes, the 16V cars are known to have issues with the exhaust valves and the guides. Metallurgy wasn't as good back then, so the materials used weren't as good as they should have been. Yes, getting the head rebuilt is not inexpensive and parts either have to be custom made or modified. The plus side is, once it's done...it's done. The engines are non-interference, so as long as something catastrophic doesn't happen, the hard parts should be good for the life of the car at that point. Get a hold of Rick Diogo at RDI.

 

Once the engine is up to snuff, really there's not much upkeep that's different compared to the 8V. It's just that the engine is so rare that people are afraid of them. The expense comes if you want to build the engine. I would highly suggest getting a new valve cover gasket from Joel. They are $150, but the new ones are a better design, use better material than the original (DO NOT throw the original away!).

 

Between an 8V and a 16V car, I'd go 16V *EVERY* time...no reason to really not. Plus they *will* hold their value and possibly appreciate as time goes on. TC's in general will most likely plateau in price within the next 5 years as the parts cars and beaters get weeded out.

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I agree totally with everything Reaper said.  Here are some random thoughts:

 

Are your plugs not only the correct ones, but are they ok?  It sounds like they've been through a lot in the last few months and could have been damaged, so it might be worth it to replace them before incurring the expense & aggravation of a head job.  BTW, $2,000 sounds a bit steep.  I bought a 16v engine with a bad head gasket and had the head rebuilt (2 bent valves) for $900 plus guides & seals which I got from Rick D. 

 

I've replaced the odo gears in 2 TC's and both turned out fine - which is somewhat remarkable given my mediocre mechanical skills.  I've also redone 3  valve cover gaskets without incident, or leaks.

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The intermittent miss is more noticeable at idle and it can be felt, bucks , around town when in first and second. Out on road its not noticeable, plenty of zip! Its got new plugs ,cap, rotor and $200.00 wires! Thankfully included with car!! Thinking bad injector , sticking or bent rod. Need to take compression check. Thanks for confirming its noninterference, that's a relief! Yes $900.00 is much better than $2K. As mild as the miss is If I keep the car Ill just keep driving it as is and hope it heals. this will be the fourth gear change for me, had to do it in my previous 3TCs. I just take the gear out of any 90s Mopar and have had good luck with them holding up. grease did not dry out on US built Mopars!  Thanks for putting my mind at ease with the $$ of maintain a 16 valve, Im leaning on keeping it! Ill watch the video to refresh my memory to!! Thanks again all for the input!! That's my 8 valve with trunk down,  The 16 valve is actually cleaning up to be nicer than the 8 valve!

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The only other item that I can think of off the top of my head for the 16V engines that is costly and hard to get are rod bearings. They are *not* the same as the Chrysler ones and can't be interchanged. It sounds to me like this engine is in decent shape and has been taken care of. The ones I have taken apart can't have that said about them, but in every case the main bearings are OK (standard Chrysler), but the rod bearings are either worn or the babbitt is flaking off (beyond the other catastrophic failures due to bad mechanics or owners). I have nothing to back me up, but my thinking is that most of these cars sit for long periods of time and the motor oil becomes acidic and starts eating at the babbitting. Having an oil analysis done could possibly tell you if you have bearings going out if you don't want to go through the effort of popping the pan off and physically looking at the bearing shells.

 

Timing belts, seals, etc. are all still available, just have to do some legwork sometimes. This group is pretty good about sharing information on what interchanges, so you shouldn't have to worry about that too much.

 

Oh, the miss sounds fairly typical, though usually it goes away with some revs. Might be a sticky injector.

Edited by Reaper1 (see edit history)
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23 minutes ago, Reaper1 said:

The only other item that I can think of off the top of my head for the 16V engines that is costly and hard to get are rod bearings. They are *not* the same as the Chrysler ones and can't be interchanged.

Well now, you guys have arrived at the one problem area on the 16V TC engine. 

There are 2 ways to overcome this situation in my view.

 

The first one will be 'MY' fix. Probably most everyone else, their last resort.

When I rebuilt the engine on my Yellow 16V TC, seen and described on the AACA website which you can see and read if you click my links, I had already had sufficient experience with finding connecting rod bearings for the 16V engine that I decided for a different resolution.

I decided to use a forged crankshaft from an 8 valve TC engine. This way the engine would have easily acquired bearings, both rods and mains. That also meant I had to use the HD connecting rods from an 8V engine. So far, so good. The hitch was the wrist pins on the 16V engine. The wrist pins are a smaller diameter than the wrist pins on the 8V engines. Since I wanted to use the stock 16V pistons, the wrist pin bushings in the 8V rods had to have a smaller inside diameter for the 16V pistons wrist pins.

This was simply accomplished by my machine shop. Raw stock can be acquired to fit the rod's small end inside diameter and can then be machined to the proper tolerances for the smaller wrist pins.

So now all the parts fit together and in this configuration, the engine was built. The car and engine are still running fine though at least 3 different owners have owned that TC since me. In my view, that is the better way to rebuild this engine for normal driving and it does not affect the performance in any way. 

 

The story of finding the correct rod bearings for the 16V TC engine, for another time.

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Hopefully I don't have to go there any time soon! Have to get compression test and at least know where to go from there, plug seems not to be fouling. If it wasn't for the bucking I wouldn't even know it was missing its so irregular out the tail pipe. Take the wire off and its a steady miss out the tail pipe! Have to get back to my other project today, though I don't enjoy it nearly as much, Painting the barn!! Know any one who wants a nice clean 81K 8 valve? $4500.00 OBO.

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New Problem of my own making. I cleaned engine compartment Monday and lightly rinsed off. 24 hours later started, now idle is up and down to point of all most killing. Give it some gas and it evens out. Put in gear it stumbles big time but keeps running, At stop sign idle is up and down and stumbles again. Out on road its good, drive 15 miles at 65 , at home idle is now good, shut off , restart this morning and idle is back to up and down, give it some gas and after a little bit idle smooths out, did not drive yet today. Check engine lite is on and off. The code I got was 1 pause 3 pause 5 pause then 5. What does this tell me? Did I get the computer wet? I checked down in spark plug holes and took coil wire off coil and sprayed silicone spry in coil and on computer feed wires. You would think after 40 miles of driving it would have dried out by now. Help!     

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15 minutes ago, glennb49 said:

New Problem of my own making. I cleaned engine compartment Monday and lightly rinsed off. 24 hours later started, now idle is up and down to point of all most killing. Give it some gas and it evens out. Put in gear it stumbles big time but keeps running, At stop sign idle is up and down and stumbles again. Out on road its good, drive 15 miles at 65 , at home idle is now good, shut off , restart this morning and idle is back to up and down, give it some gas and after a little bit idle smooths out, did not drive yet today. Check engine lite is on and off. The code I got was 1 pause 3 pause 5 pause then 5. What does this tell me? Did I get the computer wet? I checked down in spark plug holes and took coil wire off coil and sprayed silicone spry in coil and on computer feed wires. You would think after 40 miles of driving it would have dried out by now. Help!     

Check all the VACUUM hoses around and to & from the MAP sensor. the #13 code indicates [MAP SENSOR pneumatic circuit] #55 indicates [end of test]

It is so easy to break the small, hard plastic lines. Repair with short piece of rubber vacuum hose that fits snugly, using something like carburetor spray into the piece of hose you are about to use, SO IT SLIPS ONTO THE HARD PLASTIC LINE EASILY

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When I pulled the hose off the top of the map sensor there were bubbles coming out of the tub that it pushes onto. the engine was running .It did make it run either faster or slower with the hose off. I blew through the hose put it back on and the idle picked up and when I drove it no more stumble when starting in first. So thought it was water in map sensor. Let sit all day and started at 6pm, started out on normal idle then did the same up and down idle again, it almost kills but not quite! Swapped map sensors from 8 valve and same results, Is the vacuum source for the map sensor under the intake? Ill Check that next. The code still comes up 13 for map sensor. Thanks for the input guys.     

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3 minutes ago, glennb49 said:

When I pulled the hose off the top of the map sensor there were bubbles coming out of the tub that it pushes onto. the engine was running .It did make it run either faster or slower with the hose off. I blew through the hose put it back on and the idle picked up and when I drove it no more stumble when starting in first. So thought it was water in map sensor. Let sit all day and started at 6pm, started out on normal idle then did the same up and down idle again, it almost kills but not quite! Swapped map sensors from 8 valve and same results, Is the vacuum source for the map sensor under the intake? Ill Check that next. The code still comes up 13 for map sensor. Thanks for the input guys.     

 

Yes.   My question to you, do you have good vacuum at that hose attached at the MAP sensor? You also have the barometric relay that the vacuum passes through. 

Ia everything along the line in good shape?  Did you clear the code 13 in the SMEC before checking again?  Iis locked in until cleared. It will go away after a time, but you didn’t want to wait that long. I don’t suppose you have a diagnosis tester like a Snap-On 2500, do you?

I’ll be looking for your answers.

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