American Pickers and the Madame X Cadillac

[1937hd45]

You're right it was 1978 maybe '79 delivered a NOS pair of ARDUN heads for $2,500 that I was into for $600. those were good old days. That paid off the plumber back when we were building the house. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I think the rule that you should "do what you know" is a good one to follow.  These guys don't know crap about cars.   But I'm gonna assume they are not complete idiots and bought something that was not real.   Assuming it is real,  it is Pebble worthy.

[Joe in Canada]

Here is an original picture of the real deal and the second one is from the show. Looks as though the front end has been changed at some point in time that kills the original paint statement. 

As for the expert on the show said they swapped out the engine from a V8 to a V16 in 1930. That would be a neat trick seeing the frame is longer for a V16  and you would have to swap chassis to do it.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[CHuDWah]

9 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

We had other terms for that type, just never used "picker". And they were recognized as someone you really didn't want to see pawing through your stuff. There is nothing wrong with making a buck, but they were the ones who wanted the best and cried that the price was too high for them to make any money. Just another breed of bottom feeder.

 

Those two did a show with some Civil War documentation at a southern museum. The Costello one had bought it for $200 and the museum curator really liked it. So the cherry picker states he just wants his $200 back. That really looked bad to me. Here are two well paid TV personalities, probably a crew of  15 and all the trucks and equipment. This clown is looking for his $200 back. I would have given the documents to a good home without hesitation. If he is like that in real life, too bad, but I think the script writer got him that time.

 

I am still for the "How much for everything" approach. It just makes me feel less like washing my hands after the purchase.

 

Any of you know what one of these are?

 

 

Rule of Acquisition # 284 - Deep down, everyone's a Ferengi.

[mike6024]

http://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V6fl4100.htm

 

Are you basing that on this link? I noticed the caption under that picture, left some uncertainty.

 

Chassis #336340 or #337668 ... or neither of these?
This one has hood louvers typical of 1930 Cadillac & LaSalle cars

[edinmass]

Ok......I did fifteen minutes of research, and watched the tv clip of the show. I have been able to figure out the car 80 percent, and would need hours of standing next to it to sort out the last 20 percent. 

 

First, the data sheet is signed by Sloan and one of the Fisher Brothers. Prototype.........no, not in my opinion. I would call the car something I have seen twice before. A test platform for the Fisher Brothers. And, I am quite sure it evolved for its first 18 months of its life.  Early on today I thought it was modified at a later time..........post war. After some time looking at it and chewing on it, I’m fairly certain it was a evolution project........from late 29 to early 31......and since it’s a Fleetwood built body, from Fleetwood Pennsylvania and has later added Detroit Fisher Body parts all over it, and parts from 1929(95 percent) and the rest looks like 1930 & 1931(5 percent) it all adds up to a Fisher Brothers test platform. I have seen two other cars similar to this one that still survive. One a twelve open car and another a sixteen closed car. There are also some LaSalle parts on the subject car. I have some factory notes with dates for in run production trim changes, and the subject car has some rather seldom seen hardware on it. So, after all information and data, photos, and no less than forty five years of working on, driving, and servicing early 30’s Caddies I have come to the following conclusion:

 

Its a hybrid of a stock 1929 Cadillac chassis that had some LaSalle attributes both mechanical and trim. It had a Fleetwood Pennsylvania Body, with non standard for Fleetwood trim when first built. It also had some LaSalle interior details. Along the way, probably in August or September of 1930 it was modified once or twice in Detroit with Fisher Body parts.......and this is typical of the other “Fisher Brothers” test platform cars. It wouldn’t surprise me if the car has had several different factory paint jobs changing colors, as the other “test” cars had color changes. 

 

Analysis: 

 

While people call it a “Madam X” there isn’t anything that is terribly great or special about the car. The cars proportions are off, and the overall package is not attractive “as built when new”, and it looks a bit better with the “on the road bolt on changes” made as the project evolved. The car is interesting and a fun time capsule, and spending more time in person trying to figure out more details would be a fun experience from a automotive archeology point of view. 

 

The platform of a V-8 makes it a minor league curiosity but it is no where near a “major find” or important car in the era of design or engineering. 

 

I know most of the major Cadillac collectors from this era and I’m quite sure, they would not be interested in this car for their collection. There just isn’t anything about it that makes it special in a “good” way. It is interesting to see, and the story is at least based in fact.........which makes this car a true “test platform” done by the big boys at GM. Problem is overall this is the worst example of its kind I have ever seen that has survived. There is just not enough “special” items, styling, and chassis changes to make it anything more than a half hearted attempt at figuring things out.

 

On a scale of one to ten, I would rate the car a 3.5 on the interest scale. It doesn’t check “all the boxes”. Looking at it, it doesn’t inspire me, it doesn’t seduce me or draw me in;  it doesn’t make me want to look at it more. I don’t think that I “have to have it” when looking at it. It’s flaws far exceed its uniqueness, and all of this adds  up to a mundane factory project that is more a historical oddity, and it’s not an important car in the scheme of things.

 

As to value, I wouldn’t pay anywhere near the numbers tossed around in the TV show.......not even close. If I was in love with it, my number would be 30k, and then it’s still too much. If offered to me at 20k right now, I would  pass on it. And I wouldn’t bother with the effort of restoring it................OK, now this is where everyone chimes in and dumps on me.......that’s fine. I stand by my analysis. I do wish the best to whoever ends up with the car, and I am sure they will be happy with it. I will be happy for them.

 

The TV show kept pumping it up, and waving the flag that it was the best car in a “great collection of cars”, well take a look at everything else that was there. It was all common run of the mill stuff. I think the most interesting thing is that somehow the car was either sold or given to someone in private hands, and not returned to the factory. If I were the Fisher Brothers, Alfred Sloan, Harley Earl, or any other GM executive, I would have insisted that the car was returned to the factory and scrapped............I wouldn’t have wanted to lose control of the car and let it be out in public. There is nothing about the car to promote or build good will. It was a dead end when it was new. The few words that come to mind are uninspired & poorly executed.

Edited May 29, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Thank you for the education Ed. I didn't start this thread with any intention to knock the buyer, and have very little knowledge of Cadillacs of this era other that being able to ID them from 20 feet. Guess the lesson to be learned is to do more research even if it may cause you to loose the car. 

 

Bob 

[edinmass]

Bob, Thanks for you comments. I didn’t want to dump on the car. It is neat. Problem is the TV hype puts too many poor ideas into people’s heads. The TV show is NOT fact, it is show business...........and the car is just a prop for the TV show to make money. As far as what is an interesting Cadillac of the era.......look at this. Best guess is it would sell for 3-5 large.

Edited May 29, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Ok, My first reaction, has nothing to do with the color combination or 3-5 large (REALLY?) does the car have a steering wheel, or is the driver seven feet tall? 

 

 

Bob 

[edinmass]

It’s right hand drive. One off. Italian Body. V-16. History from new. Colors need changing. Two years ago, a lesser Caddy brought well over those numbers.........and then add another 1 large for the restoration.  The great stuff is still on fire. I added a new photo with a better color. Amazing what paint will do to improve a car.

Edited May 29, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

My favorite Caddy is the V16 Murphy. I would like to see a period picture of it.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

All I know is in 1969 there was a legitimate Madame X for sale in the Hershey flea market for the outrageous sum of $5000. 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

All I know is in 1969 there was a legitimate Madame X for sale in the Hershey flea market for the outrageous sum of $5000. 

 

Adjusted for inflation, you can buy one for half that today................

[Taylormade]

It’s funny how everyone has a different take on certain cars.  To me, the Pininfarina is a rather ugly car.  I much prefer the sweeping fenders of other cars to the motorcycle fenders.  The body seems too high and the cockpit cutouts above the doors seem all wrong for a car of this type.  I think it’s ungainly - in either color combination.  I’m sure others find it attractive, I don’t.

[46 woodie]

I'm not familiar with Cadillac, but I do know a fair amount about Model A Ford's. When the "pickers" purchased that Model A, they paid way too much for it. Wrong color, reproduction grill shell and headlights, wrong interior and lot's of add on's  that screamed "don't buy me". It was later appraised at a couple grand less than they paid for it. Frank also punched a '40 Plymouth that was also appraised at a grand less than he paid. What Mike and Frank need is an automobile appraiser to advise them. On the other hand, when you are dealing with TV and advertising money and producers are throwing buckets of money at you, who cares how much they spend and loose.

[West Peterson]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

My favorite Caddy is the V16 Murphy. I would like to see a period picture of it.

 

 

My favorite is the Rollston coupe-roadster.

 

[edinmass]

Call me old school.......I like my Caddies with Fleetwood Coachwork.  Guess I spent too much time with them in my youth. The few customs are all very nice, but to me it’s like looking at a Pierce Arrow without the fender lights. Just doesn’t seem right.

 

[mike6024]

http://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/DRM28-29.HTM

 

Fleetwood (USA) The first Cadillacs to be designated Madame X were built on the 140-inch wheel base chassis of the Series 341-B (1929) with engine #336340 (shipped on May 5, 1929) and #337668 (shipped on May 29, 1929).  A copy of the factory record sheets for both cars still exist [the record for #337668 was published in SS, 2/96, p.4].  The latter car was a special order for Alfred P. Sloan Jr. The body colors of both units was Madeira maroon, code #20624, with black chassis, fenders and upper body molding; they had a roof covering of high grade long grain shiny black landau leather; the record does not show that they had a folding roof over the rear seat passengers (landaulette styling), although that appears obvious from the photo; the upholstery was done in Wiese pattern/sample #3021. Among other special features were a chrome-plated trunk rack, window frames and wheel spokes [six-wheel job with fender wells); the earlier of the two cars had the Buffalo wire wheels with 7.00/20" tires, whereas the later one had 7.00/18" tires which were not standard on Cadillac cars until 1931. The interior hardware was the standard Fleetwood issue but tinted to match the Madeira maroon body color and then chrome finished [information provided in part by Jim Schild of St. Louis, MO].

 

So #336340 had 20 inch wheels, others had 18 inch

[West Peterson]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Call me old school.......I like my Caddies with Fleetwood Coachwork.  Guess I spent too much time with them in my youth. The few customs are all very nice, but to me it’s like looking at a Pierce Arrow without the fender lights. Just doesn’t seem right.

 

 

That's a weak argument! 😆

[rwchatham]

All i want for Christmas is a Cadillac V 16 roadster to restore ! 

[1937hd45]

5 minutes ago, rwchatham said:

All i want for Christmas is a Cadillac V 16 roadster to restore ! 

Once you have all 16 valve seats cut and leak tested you can start on the other bank. Bob 

[Gunsmoke]

I appreciate "edinmass" taking the time to provide us with an expert's analysis of the OP car. I watched the show last night, and while naturally intrigued by a rare car I knew the TV "script" was largely hype/baloney, I was wondering just how much (if any)of the banter was expert knowledge, how much was fake script, and how much was Wikipedia drivel. The Packard Roadster was more interesting to me. As someone has said more than once on here, rare does not always mean valuable. When the picker said this is the "holy grail" of Cadillacs I thought he must not have seen many of the true "holy grail" models. Thanks Ed, I agree a figure somewhere under $30K would be about fair. As we all know, they script these shows well ahead of time. They probably spent 3-4 weeks discussing how they would value this car for entertainment purposes, and how they would "live negotiate" a selling price, including the last minute turnaround in the van to go back and seal the deal. Anyone who believes that is just how it happened, well.......there's one born every day.

[mike6024]

Title of this thread is missing an "e" in "Madame."

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

how they would "live negotiate" a selling price, including the last minute turnaround in the van to go back and seal the deal.

 

Huh, I guess I shouldn't have changed the channel so soon. I rarely watch the stuff to the end. I have even tried with the sound muted and can't get through them.

 

Recently I did watch one car show to the end, though. I sat there in disbelief, mouth breathing and highly agitated to the end. It was about the restoration of a yellow Cord and the shop couldn't figure out how to make the clutch pedal start switch for the engine work. They put a push button under the dash! And showed the owner as if it was some stroke of brilliance on their part. I couldn't believe it.

My '60 Buick has a gas pedal start. If some shop couldn't make it work and put a push button or key start on MY car there would be hell to pay. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Every time I see a Cord for the rest of my life I will remember those clowns.

 

I had a similar situation with an unskilled transmission shop a few years ago. The shop was about 70 miles away and my car had been dropped off by my Nephew who lived near them. After a totally ignorant conversation with the owner I calmly put the phone down and called my Nephew. I gave him very explicit (including the language) instructions to take his car dolly to the shop. tell him he was there to pick up the car, and not say another word. I certainly handled it nothing like the poor owner on TV. He had to have been a paid actor with a script.

 

If someone put a pushbutton on a Cord I owned or even my Buick they would have got to shoot a scene reminiscent of an old Walker, Texas Ranger show.

 

Grrrrrrrrr, I know why I don't watch that stuff right now!

Bernie

[1937hd45]

Like the dash mounted push button starter buttons and left foot dimmer switchs, to each their own. 

 

Bob

Edited May 30, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:13 AM, 1937hd45 said:

each their own. 

 

Not on a restoration, the way it worked originally or it is not right.

[1937hd45]

5 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

Not on a restoration, the way it worked originally or it is not right.

My Car MY WAY, have me arrested if it bothers you so much. Bob 

[JFranklin]

9 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

My Car MY WAY, have me arrested if it bothers you so much. Bob 

Didn't Johnny Cash build one just like that?

[JACK M]

I guess none of my cars are right.

But I'm having fun !!!

[edinmass]

All this interesting back and forth has had someone call me, with a “real good” Cadillac find! Guess this thread does have some positive attributes after all! It’s a decent car.....at a fair price. Too bad I am past my Cadillac days of collecting. We will be sure to get the car to a collector who will appreciate it..........after all, it doesn’t have any windows!👍

[1937hd45]

The money is made AFTER the pickers show, friend did real well the week after they featured the visit with them. 

 

Bob 

[1912Staver]

I have very limited TV channel availability. All the cable stuff is way too expensive in Canada. 

 I have yet to see any of the car hobby related shows that are truly watchable. Most I find too painful to endure more than about 10 minutes of air time.

I don't know who the target audience is but from what I have seen I hope it isn't car hobby people otherwise we are in troubled waters.

 

Greg in Canada

[John_Mereness]

On 5/28/2019 at 6:22 AM, edinmass said:

A Madam X would be a V-16, not a series 355A sedan. Go back and look to see if it has tool boxes in the splash pans, then it’s a 1930 if it’s an eight. If it has a single round light on the pan, it’s a V-12. Either way, if it’s not a 16, he paid too much. 

I had a fellow send me a picture eons ago of what looked to be a 1930 V-8 Madam X Close Coupled  sedan with a padded roof.  The fellow use to periodically post out on this forum and there was a picture of him sitting in car and I spotted the chrome window molding and asked.   Picture was bad quality and I do not know what became of photo, but car was unrestored or very older restored maroon and black - a nice original, but missing some items such as driver's spare wheel and ...  I would say it was this car - though certainly did not have any "gleam" to its finishes.  

 

Interestingly, car in Pickers photos the car looks to have been update to a 1931 (headlights, and hood sides, plus I am sure other features) at some point in its early life.

.

Edited June 2, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[K8096]

If that Cadillac still has the original paint on it, I’d think it would be a good candidate for the preservation class at Pebble.  

[chistech]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:03 AM, edinmass said:

I commented based on the 1931 year as originally posted. Anything Earl built would NOT be considered "normal production" as well as the Fisher Brothers. There was one V-12 One Off Fleetwood Town Car with a Madam X body on it, as I was in my garage for five years. Originally built for a 16 chassis, and placed on a 31 V-12 at the end of the year, best guess was they were just using up all the left over stuff before the new 32 chassis came out and they couldn't be used or sold. Interestingly, there was paperwork that they cast three of the special windshields for this car, and apparently two somehow made it onto cars, the last remained in inventory. Like most high end cars, you have your normal production stuff, the special one off custom order, the semi custom batch orders, and then the "end of year get the junk out of the building before we can't sell it or use it" cars. There was a lot of the end of year get it gone stuff done.

My research on my 32’ Olds has shown that there are a few 6cyl cars out there with 8cyl bodies (indented firewall) on them. It seems they were using up all the bodies they could at the end of the production year.

[John_Mereness]

On 6/2/2019 at 4:36 PM, K8096 said:

If that Cadillac still has the original paint on it, I’d think it would be a good candidate for the preservation class at Pebble.  

I would be tempted to ask Pebble Beach Concours - it would allow you 2 x times to show it if they would say yes. 

[John_Mereness]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:17 PM, edinmass said:

As to value, I wouldn’t pay anywhere near the numbers tossed around in the TV show.......not even close. If I was in love with it, my number would be 30k, and then it’s still too much. If offered to me at 20k right now, I would  pass on it. And I wouldn’t bother with the effort of restoring it................OK, now this is where everyone chimes in and dumps on me.......that’s fine. I stand by my analysis. I do wish the best to whoever ends up with the car, and I am sure they will be happy with it. I will be happy for them.

I will refrain from a number/price other than to say it is possibly an awkward car  (I think you would need the build sheet from General Motors Archive to figure out what you are really looking at here and hopefully some photos survive through history too - this is because there is a strong chance it started out as a 1930 and then was updated cosmetically to a 31 or is a body transplant to a 1931).   The downfall would be such as if it was a chassis driven into the ground and someone transplanted body to chassis outside of GM doing it (ex 1960's or ...).  I could see it higher on the unrestored side than Ed quoted if build sheet justified matched to being in showable "original" condition, but on the top range/restored range it is just not a V-16 and the V-8 cars just have a limited value in being a closed car (no matter how custom bodied a sedan they are).   All said though whoever does buy it ends up with a really interesting car one way or another.

[60FlatTop]

6 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I would be tempted to ask Pebble Beach Concours - it would allow you 2 x times to show it if they would say yes. 

 

The Pickers at Pebble Beach..... Why did I just think of Rodney Dangerfield pulling up in a red Rolls-Royce.

 

Worse, I know something like this would be written into the script:

[8E45E]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 9:37 AM, Rusty_OToole said:

Picker is an old term in the antique business. I heard it at least 50 years ago. It used to mean a guy who went around buying choice items at auction sales, yard sales, estate sales etc that he could resell to an antique dealer. You might read a book called Cadillac Jack by Larry McMurtry for more details.

 

 

I thought Picker made X-ray machines. 

 

Surely Google can mount a Picker next to the camera on the roof of their Street View vehicles and X-ray every barn while taking pictures.  Imagine the story they would tell!!!

 

Craig

[John_Mereness]

No offense to anyone, but Gas Monkey Garage took their Packard Rollston Roadster to Pebble Beach and yes the cigar windshield wiper needs to work and ...