1929 Model 65

[Dave Phillips]

Hi

 

I’m just finishing the restoration of my 1929 Model 65, all is good apart from 1 thing.

 

After the car has been left for a couple of days, it will not start whatever I do with the choke, ignition or throttle, the only way is to drip some fuel into a couple of plug holes, she then fires first time and is perfect until left for a couple of days again. It’s as if there’s not enough suck to get the fuel uphill to the head and into the pistons when cold. All the obvious are good like compression, the float level, electric pump so fuel in the carb.

 

if any body has any tricks to get it started, I would love to know.

  

Cheers Dave

 

 

Dave 

[Spinneyhill]

What about the ignition? All wires new and earths are clean working? Mine would not start recently and I accidentally noticed the LT wire at the distributor was close to or touching the distributor. It turned out the insulation (brading) had frayed or cooked and it was shorting to earth. Move it, sleeve it, starts quickly.

 

Very nice looking car! Keep in the back of your mind that "90% of all fuel problems are ignition".

 

It is very easy to put too much fuel into these engines. I keep my foot away from the foot feed during starting, using just a spot of hand throttle and the choke, which are adjusted when it starts. If it coughs on full choke, close the choke and try again. Keep your feet away from everything except the starter.

[keiser31]

Verify that the choke plate closes all of the way when you pull the knob.

[keiser31]

Gorgeous car!

[Narve N]

12 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Verify that the choke plate closes all of the way when you pull the knob.

 

Second that, also confirm that the supply of fuel is sufficient through checking for fuel dropping from the intake after 10 seconds of churning. If there is no smell, the fuel is not being sucked up from the carb as intended.

 

My good S65 engine starts after 2 revolutions churning with full choke to prime the cylinders and make a cough, then a further 3 engine revolutions half choke to start - if having stood for weeks. Otherwise it starts immediately. Carb is a Carter BB-1, and I run it with a vacuum-tank no electric fuelpump necessary.

 

My no-so-good S65 engine requires a lot more fiddling with the choke to start and is even worse after long hiatus, but I reckon that is primarily an electric/timing issue as also mentioned above.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Narve N (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

Is the vacuum port on the intake manifold for the vacuum tank plugged or a leak somewhere ?

[Dave Phillips]

Ok, thanks for the ideas, I check it all tomorrow.

 

Cheers  Dave 

[keiser31]

5 hours ago, 28 Chrysler said:

Is the vacuum port on the intake manifold for the vacuum tank plugged or a leak somewhere ?

Also....look on the engine side of the manifold for a port. You will need a small mirror to see back there.

[Sasha39]

Yes indeed a Beautiful car, from your comment "not enough suck" sounds like your using the vacuum tank to get the fuel from the tank to the carb which is fine but if you have a small pin hole leak that could drain out the fuel over the few days that the car is not in use and there is your problem, I have a inline tap at the bottom of my vacuum tank that I close off when not using the car and below that I have a clear inline fuel filter so that I can see if I have fuel running down to the carb,  being an up draft carb it could also be a problem with the needle and seat in the carb allowing the fuel to flood the carb over the few days and drain the fuel out that way.

Please let us know what you find out.      

[richasco]

He has an electric fuel pump. I believe he also doesn’t think that the intake stroke is creating enough vacuum to pull fuel up from the carb into the cylinders. 

 

If the compression numbers are good then it’s either ignition/timing related or carb/fuel. 

[Narve N]

Related issue: My not-so-cooperative S65 engine did improve its starting upon very accurate setting of ignition timing and points. It now purrs like a kitten on idle and runs very nicely up to 40 mph, before it turns evil again and stutters and coughs - refusing to go beyond that speed.

 

It is a RPM thing as the same occurs in 2nd on lower speeds. I have so far thought about but not tended to the following: 1) stuck ignition advance mechanism, 2) bad coil or condenser not coping with higher RPM, 3) carburetor float incorrectly set, 4) faulty plugs or plug gaps, 5) valve clearance set to tight, 6) carburetor high speed adjustment not working? Any good tips for further fault seeking?

[FLYER15015]

Narve,

Have you "shorted" the plugs one at a time to check for a reduction in RPM ?

Were it mine, I would dump the vacuum tank, and run on the electric fuel pump, with a pressure regulator of course.

 

Per your picture, Me thinks new plug wires are in order first.

 

Mike in Colorado

[Dave Phillips]

Hi,

Checked it all today,  all the above things were good. I did have some success tho, all I did was advance the timing by about 6 degrees and it fired straight up, I’ll leave it a few days and try again.

 

i was told by an old guy to retard the ignition when starting and then advance it once it’s running, lesson learned, I might tinker with it and adjust the steering wheel control so it’s already a bit more advanced when the lever is in the up position.

 

Thanks for all the advise, it’s great to have some help when you need it. In the U.K. we seem to have the same problem as the US the younger generation think 5 years old means it’s classic/ vintage. I’ve been to a show today in my 1948 Chrysler and we had a 2013 Ford parked next to us with a very load stereo.. Each to there own I suppose..

 

 

Cheers Dave in sunny Somerset 

[Narve N]

1 hour ago, FLYER15015 said:

"shorted" the plugs one at a time to check for a reduction in RPM ?

Thanks for the input Mike. I have not yet tried to confirm that all plugs fires as they should, but as said the car runs fine up to a certain RPM - no indication of a non-firing plug. But I can always test it out as it is a quick check. Also the wires are refreshed since picture  (from a previous setting-timing exercise) and a vacuum tank without sediments in it (like mine) is a blessing for a guy who has had three electric fuel pumps fail in two weeks (like me).

 

For Dave: I put 5,05 cm on my gauge and rotate engine until piston #6 just nudges the pin, turn rotor fully anti clock-wise to take up slack and use a 6V bulb to find exact position for the distributor before bolting everything down. This has proven to function for me and my two Series 65 engines. Another hot trick is to add a second earth wire to distributor as the original arrangement easily fails intermittently.

[JACK M]

I had similar symptoms once and found that the points didn't have enough spring pressure for closing and they would float at higher revs.

Just a thought.

[richasco]

In addition to the points, how old is the coil? Have you checked it’s resistance? A weak coil can cause high speed issues too.

[Narve N]

Thanks for the inputs, points will be added to my list of items to be replaced for testing, systematically going thru one item at the time with test-drives in between. The coil is already on that list. I have today confirmed that all plugs ignite and that the gap is as specified 0.027" and that cleaning the plugs does not improve anything. Still a possibility that the plugs are substandard, but I will do other checks first.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Narve N said:

Thanks for the inputs, points will be added to my list of items to be replaced for testing, systematically going thru one item at the time with test-drives in between.

One thing at a time with test-drives in between is absolutely the best way to go.  Too many people take too much apart at one time and just throw new parts at a problem and never find out what the problem really was.

[Narve N]

For those following the struggle with engine missing at speed. New coil improved matters just so slightly, new condenser did nothing. Stuttering starts at 40 mph, and car will do 45 max. Any ideas about plugs of various brands? All plugs are of course made for Ford Model A, I am running Autolites on this one (Made in USA it says on box), but the other better performing engine had the larger more authentic looking Champion plugs that Model A people says are only good for parades, but maybe they are better suited for old Chryslers?

[Guest]

NGK spark plugs are vastly superior to AC, Champion and Autolite plugs.  Any of the others needed cleaning at 5,000 miles and replacement at 10,000, which was far too often when I was driving 1,000 miles a month.  Now I get 20,000 miles out of a set with no cleaning in between.

[Narve N]

I have note yet seen any NGK plugs that would fit a Series 65 or Ford Model A (thick 18mm? thread), but generally I always try to put NGK in my cars.

 

[Spinneyhill]

18 mm plugs? I am using NGK, is it B-6? What is your Autolite number?

[Guest]

NGK 2910  AB-6 is what I use in my Pontiac.  I have never heard of a "thick 18mm? thread".  What would/could that be.

[maok]

17 hours ago, Narve N said:

I have note yet seen any NGK plugs that would fit a Series 65 or Ford Model A (thick 18mm? thread), but generally I always try to put NGK in my cars.

 

My series 62 uses a 7/8" thread plug, which I'm sure would be the same in series 65.  I have the Champion w16y plugs in mine. There aren't many options unless one installs a thread reducer to a common thread size like 14mm plug.

[Spinneyhill]

There was a thread very recently of someone looking for 7/8" plugs. There are a few. I can't know which forum though.....    .     .....     .      .    ...

 

Here:

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Narve N]

Plugs in car are 7/8" thread and branded Autolite 3076, and I have also a set of Motorcraft SP-488/Tt10 available. However there are none left of the Champion W18 I had some success with on another S65.