Kenendcindyc

High compression head for 28 Std Six

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Very impressive piece of work very well done.

 

Did you make the vertical spark plug connectors? I need some of them for my Dodge 8.

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3 hours ago, JB-ed said:

Nice work. Please let us know how it runs.  In the photo of the water-jacket plate on your kitchen table, I can't see the inlet hole on the underside view, but it is there on the top view. Please tell me what I am missing.

Jb-Ed ,if your asking about the last two pictures of the completed head that’s on my table then what your seeing is both the “top plate” and the lower head assembly together. I had to make it in two pieces in order to machine coolant passages, if it was a casting it would be one piece with coolant passages cast in. I have about a thousand miles on it so far and it’s running fantastic ,hills I used to pull at full throttle I can now pull at about 1/2 throttle. Fuel mileage went from about 14-15 to 20 mpg. 👍🏻

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3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Very impressive piece of work very well done.

 

Did you make the vertical spark plug connectors? I need some of them for my Dodge 8.

Yes I did. The ones I had on the original style plugs treaded onto the plugs. The new head I used modern 14mm plugs so I made those “connectors”. What style do you need?

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23 minutes ago, Kenendcindyc said:

Jb-Ed ,if your asking about the last two pictures of the completed head that’s on my table then what your seeing is both the “top plate” and the lower head assembly together. I had to make it in two pieces in order to machine coolant passages, if it was a casting it would be one piece with coolant passages cast in. I have about a thousand miles on it so far and it’s running fantastic ,hills I used to pull at full throttle I can now pull at about 1/2 throttle. Fuel mileage went from about 14-15 to 20 mpg. 👍🏻

Yes,its amazing what a boost in compression can do for torque. I only use 2nd &3rd gears now. My fuel economy has dramatically improved.

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1 hour ago, Kenendcindyc said:

What style do you need?

They are a push-on zinc plated type with a circular spring clip to push onto the spark plug bulb at the top. I have the blanks and have to cut the slots and make the springs.

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43 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

They are a push-on zinc plated type with a circular spring clip to push onto the spark plug bulb at the top. I have the blanks and have to cut the slots and make the springs.

ahhhh ok, Those in the picture are just some quick ones I machined up, because after i got the head on I totally forgot my old ones wouldn't fit on  the new plugs haha.  In fact my first 10 mile test drive I had the plug wires wire tied to the side of the plugs and my fingers crossed they wouldn't melt before i got back. 😉 

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Spectacular work! By chance did you take a compression test before and after?  If so what were the results?

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That is just beautiful work you should be very proud of that. 

How many hours work went into doing it all, or did you not want to know. Haha. 

Its just amazing. 

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1 hour ago, Mattml430 said:

That is just beautiful work you should be very proud of that. 

How many hours work went into doing it all, or did you not want to know. Haha. 

Its just amazing. 

I have about 80-100 hrs into the project 😳 as I have very primitive machines. Some of that time includes making some tooling I needed to perform the machining. Kieth ,Surprisingly I have not performed a “ after” compression test yet as I keep forgetting to bring home my compression tester from my day job haha. But thanks for the reminder maybe this weekend 😀. I had 65psi with the original head.  

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21 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Spectacular work! By chance did you take a compression test before and after?  If so what were the results?

I checked compression tonight after work, original head was 65 psi new head is 125 psi

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WoW 125psi!   I only have 85psi, up from 70, may need to take off another. 0.030" from the head.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, maok said:

WoW 125psi!   I only have 85psi, up from 70, may need to take off another. 0.030" from the head.

Ya when I decided to build a head I went for the highest compression I could without shrouding the valves too much. I figured I could  allways machine the transfer section more if I needed to lower it some. Compression stayed reasonable because the piston stops about .070” below the deck on this motor and head gasket is .065” thick. If you compare the old combustion chamber with the new you will see it’s probably a little more than can be gained with a .030” shave. 😀 Note these pictures are some what deceiving because of the difference in distance that I took the pictures. The originals CC at 100 and the new head at 55cc. Combustion chambers are .750"deep on original and .370" on the new head and it has a shorter transfer section.

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25CF29A4-F28B-4A3E-9EA6-950B3AFA58A1.jpeg

Edited by Kenendcindyc (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Wow. Those are some serious compression gains.

Any concerns about the parts down the line? Piston rings? Piston, pins, con-rods, bearings and crank for example? Will these parts take these higher intensity blasts reliably?

Just curious on your thoughts here. Old iron is generally over engineered I suspect.

Edited by keithb7 (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Wow. Those are some serious compression gains.

Any concerns about the parts down the line? Piston rings? Piston, pins, con-rods, bearings and crank for example? Will these parts take these higher intensity blasts reliably?

Just curious on your thoughts here. Old iron is generally over engineered I suspect.

Well time will tell, but I think it will be fine.  I'm using the same pistons as a 1930 chrysler 268 and that's a 100 hp motor, the Dodge Brothers six is a seven main bearing engine with 2.375" mains and 2.125" rod bearings and a forged steel crankshaft with full pressure lubrication. Plus I figure during normal cruse its only producing the HP required to move you down the road same as before except now your throttle is open less and your burning less fuel and making less heat. Only when your calling on it to do something it couldn't do before is it working harder and under more strain but that will be intermittent. For comparison these are the connecting rods I’m running compared to some rods from a modern 230 hp v8 and what the lower end of the Dodge looks like. So my guess is its over built enough to handle more than original HP. Crankshaft picture is Dodge Vs Model T ford  (I  raised the compression on it also and its doing fine) haha 

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Edited by Kenendcindyc (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

It's also possible that if you switched to the Stromberg UX-2 carburetor, you may get even better performance --  if you use Glenn Smith's reproduction. Your distributor is not the stock model provided with the original engine. What is it from and how is the advance curve compared with the original. I presume you allow far less advance in timing, but how much?

 

Regarding my previous question, I understand your need to produce this in two parts, it's just that I could not see all the coolant passages (and still can't but that's my problem).

Edited by JB-ed (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

 

 

 

CB3C2705-6C4F-4269-9733-9CFB42D8F116.jpeg.77de3b64b4c2079135698a86ca464fd4.jpeg

 

Is it just "shadows" or am I seeing V-shaped channels in the transfer area that do not appear in later photo of this surface? (Five posts above) Also, do you then use an original gasket?

Edited by JB-ed (see edit history)

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18 minutes ago, JB-ed said:

It's also possible that if you switched to the Stromberg UX-2 carburetor, you may get even better performance --  if you use Glenn Smith's reproduction. Your distributor is not the stock model provided with the original engine. What is it from and how is the advance curve compared with the original. I presume you allow far less advance in timing, but how much?

 

Regarding my previous question, I understand your need to produce this in two parts, it's just that I could not see all the coolant passages (and still can't but that's my problem).

Ahhh sorry I misunderstood your question ,I’ll post some better pictures of the coolant passages. As far as the carb goes you might be right but I have spent quite awhile tuning and rejeting this Stewart carb and I must say I absolutely love it. I can pull it down to under 10 mph in third and smoothly accelerate to 65 mph. It’s a VERY GOOD carb when tuned and should last another 1000 years with its cast iron and bronze construction 😀.  As for the distributor at first like you I thought it wasn’t original but I have now met three other people with 28 Std Six’s that we’re built around mine that have the exact same model so I’m pretty sure it is original 🤷🏼‍♂️ But who knows anything is possible. For the timing I’m still playing with the advance curve I’ll let you know when I perfect it. (Although it does seem to like a curve that’s really close to what Chrysler used in the 25” long blocks from the 50s that were running similar compression) 

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19 minutes ago, JB-ed said:

 

 

 

CB3C2705-6C4F-4269-9733-9CFB42D8F116.jpeg.77de3b64b4c2079135698a86ca464fd4.jpeg

 

Is it just "shadows" or am I seeing V-shaped channels in the transfer area that do not appear in later photo of this surface? (Five posts above) Also, do you then use an original gasket?

Yes the photos are not in sequence and yes there are “highly experimental haha” V groves in the transfer area. That’s what’s nice about making your own stuff you can try anything you like. 😀 I spent about a year studying flathead combustion chamber design and I’ve come to the conclusion that just about every shape you can think of has been tried and has its strong points and weaknesses. One disadvantage to flatheads are there long combustion chambers and there weak resistance to detonation, when compression is increased. One way to help prevent detonation is by bringing the pistons up to within .040” from the head  in the squish area and that would be the best way to do it , but on this engine pistons stop .070” below the deck and the gasket is .065” thick so that leaves my squish area at about .135” way to big for proper squish effect. Soooooo the boys over on the Hudson forum have had good results by adding turbulence groves to their flatheads when raising compression ,it seemed to eliminate detonation that they had before the grooves. So I added them in figuring I could easily weld them in if they were a flop, but as of right now they seem to be fine I get no detonation unless I push the timing too far so they can stay😀.  Yes that’s the original design head gasket provided buy the WONDERFUL Tom and Cindy of Myers early Dodge.  

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I see that you also run a cat.                                                   :lol:

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11 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I see that you also run a cat.                                                   :lol:

Haha, at first I was like cat? Maybe he spotted the o2 sensor bung in the exhaust I used to tune the carb? But then I remembered “the 🐈 “ haha good one 👍🏻

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Are you going to the DB Club's annual meet next week?  I'd LOVE to talk about this further with you. 

 

Regarding the distributor, your 1-0836 must be a later replacement. The Standard and Victory engines are identical and all are spec'd for the same North East distributors. I have a detailed North East/Delco later application catalog that does not show 1-0836.  I suspect the original distributors crumbled on the three Standards you have seen and all were replaced with this one. I have seen many Victory engines with later Delcos, same thing.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JB-ed said:

Are you going to the DB Club's annual meet next week?  I'd LOVE to talk about this further with you. 

 

Regarding the distributor, your 1-0836 must be a later replacement. The Standard and Victory engines are identical and all are spec'd for the same North East distributors. I have a detailed North East/Delco later application catalog that does not show 1-0836.  I suspect the original distributors crumbled on the three Standards you have seen and all were replaced with this one. I have seen many Victory engines with later Delcos, same thing.

Unfortunately I will not be attending ,work gets in the way sometimes. 

You might be right about the distributor not being original, information on these years is hard to find and I’ve found pretty much no information about a 1-0836 except that it might be a early senior six engine distributor. I doubt it’s a replacement for this engine since North East Electric was  bought by Delco in 1929 but who knows 🤷🏼‍♂️

Edited by Kenendcindyc (see edit history)

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Not to wring the last drop out of this, but I have a late 1930s "Delco" book that shows North East units, obsolete units, and replacement units for all their components. Delco continued the North East name and --more or less-- parts book for some time after buying them out. Regarding your particular distributor, is it possible that the hyphen (-) in the model number is actually a blurred out digit? This would make more sense based on the North East and later Delco numberings for these items. I suppose this matters little. However I have documented so much for the Victory Six, even going so far as to construct a service book (in CD format, sold by Myers), and so I would like to track down this distributor as a possible alternative to the original OEM.

 

I am going to hunt down the similar thread in the Hudson forum, as you mentioned, to see more about all of this. I find your work and success fascinating. I have experimented considerably with advance curves and also carburetor tunings for this engine. Much of my work follows that of Glenn Smith (Queensland Australia) who has had access to a dynamometer and has worked with it, both in designing his reproduction Stromberg carburetor and in tuning this engine.

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No problem JB-Ed I love the back and forth discussion it’s how things get figured out. Google (Singh groves hetclub) and it should get you some info. Or just Singh grooves. I have no idea if they work but figured I’d try them. They might be total witch craft but damn my engine is running good. 😀. As far as the distributor I’ll attach more pictures of mine and a car from Vermont. Hopefully we can figure this mystery out. 👍🏻

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A4BB85B2-DF62-4F4C-9349-B6D3460292F1.jpeg

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