Break in Oil change & oil change interval - non oil filter cars

[Hubert_25-25]

My 1925 Buick does not have an oil filter.   The shop manual recommendation is for an oil change every 500 miles.  Under the header "Replace oil frequently during cold weather" it states "A car that is constantly making short trips in cold weather should have the oil drained every 350 miles or once a week."   

 

So, after the rebuild, I have "break in oil" in the motor.   Any thoughts on if I should leave this in for the first 500 miles, or should it be changed early?   Are most people using 500 miles between oil changes for cars without oil filters`   .   

 

Thank you,   Hugh

Edited May 18, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[michealbernal]

As it was explained to me a long time age " oil is relatively cheap, engines are not", change it early and change it often.  All those small pieces of metal and grit you could not clean out of the engine when you rebuilt it are floating around in that oil.  Drain it out and get rid of them.  

[Brian_Heil]

I have a hard drive magnet in my pan.  It’s so strong it’s all you can do to pry it off with your fingers. 

 

I buy a case of 12 quarts.  Put 6 in the engine.  When the remaining six are gone @ ~150 miles per quart I start the whole cycle over.  So 150 x 6 = 900 miles.  Today’s oil is far superior to the oil of the 1920s.  

 

Oil’s cheap compared to machine shop rates. 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[raydurr]

Even though my 29 has a oil filter I still epoxied a magnet to my drain plug. This will only capture the ferrous metals and no babbit or other contaminants. I would change the break in oil after several cycles of how the engine will ultimately be used. Oil will probably need to be changed at least once a year due to moisture buildup in the crankcase. Aside from that I would probably change it anytime it begins to change color or hue. I agree with the theory of oil is cheap. When in doubt, change it.

[Mark Shaw]

12 hours ago, Brian_Heil said:

I have a hard drive magnet in my pan.  It’s so strong it’s all you can do to pry it off with your fingers. 

This is a good idea and it is not necessary to put it inside the pan.  Just attach it to the bottom of the pan near or around the drain plug.  The magnet will still trap particles inside the pan.   Remove it just before changing your oil so the particles are flushed out of the pan with the used oil.  Replace it when you replenish with fresh oil.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

(Mine is actually on the outside as well for the same reason. One on the diff too.  Need one for the trans next)

[raydurr]

Have you considered adding an oil filter?

[Brian_Heil]

I have but I’m certain the stock pump could not handle the restriction of a filter.  I would have no oil flow under some conditions.  

[raydurr]

Brian , how much oil pressure is normal for the 1925 Buicks? Just curious.

Edited May 20, 2019 by raydurr (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Someone else will have to answer. 

 

I know the teens and early 20s 

 

The Buick engine was all new for 1924. 

[26-25Buick]

Ray

For me cold the 26 Standard runs around 30 psi but as it warms up this drops to around 20-25 psi. However before I flattened the oil pump bottom plate and replaced the broken pressure relief spring I was lucky to get 10-15psi. This is on a motor with 75,000 original miles without a major rebuild so a fresher engine may do better. 

My 26 does have the factory pancake oil filter (one year only design) mounted on the firewall still in circuit. While I doubt it does anything other than drop oil pressure I’m reluctant to turn the shut off valve as it’s pot metal and likely to fall apart in my hand

Edited May 20, 2019 by 26-25Buick
Corrected (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

I am going to be going through the same process as Hugh and Larry D. when my 1916 D-45 comes back home.  I will have a different situation than these guys.  The transmission case and oil pan on my engine is cast aluminum.  I have given some thought to taping a very strong magnet around the drain plugs on both the pan and transmission  drains.  Even on this fresh rebuild I will add a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in with the rest of the oil.  I am thinking that I will stick with a mineral oil instead of the synthetic stuff that is so prevalent these days.  I will run Havoline 20W50 as I do in all of our modern vehicles.  I want to stay with the mineral oil because I have heard that the synthetic oils do things to seals that cause them to leak.  As always, this is a good place to learn things.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[26-25Buick]

Hugh

Ive been changing my oil every 2 years and  it comes out looking pretty clean but I’m only doing about 750-1000 miles in that time. Also we’re pretty lucky as we’re unlikely see temperatures fall much below the 50s and nor do we have high humidity to contend with.

I suspect oil change interval is more around how you use the car and not time but as others have pointed out oil changes are relatively cheap insurance so I think I’ll just keep changing it.

[Hubert_25-25]

Thanks for all the responses.  I have been reading that you are supposed to run break in oil for the first 500-1000 miles, then switch to conventional.  I am sure this recommendation is for cars with filters.  I also saw a recommendation to change the break in oil at 50 miles.  This means a second helping of break in oil to get me to 500 miles.  I am OK with this.  I am concerned about anything in the block from the rebuild, and an extra oil flush will not hurt.  On a fresh rebuild, I am getting 25 PSIG oil pressure.  Egge rebuilt my oil pump and installed a new relief spring.  (They removed the old spring and the lock washer behind it that was added to raise the pressure).  I am not sure of the pressure after the car is all warmed up, but I do think it was at 25 while driving down the road.   

I do like the idea of installing an external magnet.  I do have a magnet on the drain plug which took me forever to find (9/16-18).  How is that for a goofy thread size.  Same as some Harley motorcycles.  The magnet is not as strong as "gold plug" uses.  Gold plug does not have this size thread though.

Hugh

     

[raydurr]

My 29 runs around 28 PSI above idle, hot or cold. I think 25 PSI with the 1925s would be enough to run an external oil filter and still adequate oil to the rockers. Something to consider.

[dibarlaw]

Hugh:

 I have run my engine for several hours over the last 3 months. (My oil pressure is also at 25 lbs.) 15-30 min at first then an hour to set the valves. Many times for 1/2 hour intervals still trying to get it to run any better than before I had it rebuilt. Which it is still not. I have then taken it on several mile runs around the neighborhood. I believe I only have the equivalent of 50 -75 miles total on it so far. So I am contemplating changing out the break in oil.

I am keeping at it though. I may try my other carb today since no adjustment makes things happy. Also I am chasing down a miss. 

Just very disappointed that after all this nothing has improved. To me the engine does sound noisy as compared to other 1924 and 1925 engines I have heard. I also have to make a retainer collar for the input side of the water pump. Those expensive seals are walking out of the bores on this side also. 

At the HCCA Brass at Berks meet at Strasburg yesterday I spoke with a fellow who can fit me up with a Carter BB-1.So we are considering.

 But the newly painted fenders look good!

[Spinneyhill]

On 5/19/2019 at 11:39 AM, michealbernal said:

All those small pieces of metal and grit you could not clean out of the engine when you rebuilt it are floating around in that oil.

Not true! Metal and grit does not float. There is no need for a magnet either. If you get iron shavings, your engine is in trouble and it is too late. An oil analysis would be more value. Your bearings are not made of iron.

 

If your oil at change time has a metallic sheen, it contains superfine metallic molecules and it is time for an oil analysis. I had the diff. overhauled in my motorhome when the oil came out shiny one time; they found a bearing that was being worn away on the side and allowing movement in the wrong directions. There were no visible iron filings.

 

I would run the break-in oil for 500 to 1000 miles as your reading says. Do the standard break-in procedures of the time: run at variable speeds, minimising the number of short runs, i.e. keep it running hot. Then change to normal oil. You want some wear to smooth out the machine marks. I once put ordinary oil in too soon and not long after added STP on the "advice" of a club member (to stop a tapping sound, which I now think was the gudgeons) and the bores soon glazed up and it started to smoke.

 

My 1930 Instruction Book says change at 1500 mile intervals but my car has a "filter". Remember that the oil change intervals were dictated to a significant degree because there were no additives to control oxidation and hence viscosity: the oil turned to sludge fairly quickly and sludge is hard to pump and does not lubricate very well. Back then also, there were huge changes in viscosity with temperature.

 

With today's oils, you could lengthen the oil change interval to 1500 or 2000 miles if you wished; I change mine at about 1000 mile intervals because there are no more oil filters available and the engine is getting on a bit. I will eventually fit a modern filter inside a correct canister, but it will be a bypass (fine) filter and not just any screw-on full flow filter that will fit. (Having said that, it appears some car makers are returning to replaceable elements: my Mazda 6 filter is a "paper" element.)

 

I remember seeing a late '20s Hupmobile timing system. The chain had a different pitch to one of the sprockets! It had worn the teeth on the wrong sprocket to razor sharp points. No metal filings ever came out but I expect shiny used oil should have given a warning long before it was examined.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Robert Engle]

If you are interested in the oil condition,  run it through a paint strainer when you drain it and see what you get.  If the filter come up clear of any metal or gunk, you are good to go.

 

Bob Engle

[Brian_Heil]

Grit and metal do not ‘float’ but they are both in suspension within the oil.  I have analyzed many vehicle and dyno test oil filters in my career.  Metallic material and byproducts of combustion and debris do find their way to a filter element. We sent many filters to the Chem Lab for sediment analysis. After the material was separated and weighed it was put through spectral analysis for content. 

 

I can’t do anything about the combustion  byproducts in my non filtered 1923 except use an API rated detergent oil that puts this material in suspension and it gets removed with the frequent oil changes.  

 

The ferritic material from the rings, pistons and bores will and does collect with a strong magnet.  Best I can do in my situation.