Where to find a reman or new Starter for 1965 Riviera

[dbaker9323]

Hello everyone!  I am in need of a remanufactured or new starter that will fit my 65 Riviera with the 401 engine.  Rebuilding my started was not successful.  I have found several starters on line that state they fit this engine, but the bolt attachment patterns are all different. The starter is still on the car - so I cannot compare visually until the car is towed to the repair shop.  Your help is appreciated!

 

 

David Baker

#14360

 

[gord14080]

What is your starter doing, slow ,nothing just a click ,please explain ?

[dbaker9323]

It's a long story.  Last year the starter performed perfectly - but on rare occasion, when it was really hot outside and the engine was hot, the starter would not re-engage until the car sat and cooled off. So I had the starter rebuilt.  When the starter came back, it had a new new problem - it would crank too slow to start it (a new battery was installed at the same time) - but if you turned the key off for a minute, it would then crank normally and start.    So, I took it to a different shop who took the starter off and sent it back to the shop who rebuilt the starter - they checked it and bench tested it and stated that it performed perfectly.  So the mechanic reassembled the car and could not find the problem.  I drove the car for 6 months in that condition.  Now, the starter will barely crank and the car will not start.  The car has a full electrical charge and this condition repeats even with a charger/starter on to boost it.  I have been told that it could be an electrical problem which needs to be traced down;  so the next shop that will look at it to trace down these problems.  But if it is the starter,  I do want to replace it rather than have it rebuilt again - that is why I am seeking advice.  Thanks.

[DualQuadDave]

Check your engine block to battery grounds. Check connections on the starter itself. Basic stuff. You are changing too many things at the same time, do one change and eliminate. Otherwise, you'll drive yourself nuts even more.

[dbaker9323]

Good advice - supposedly two mechanics have already done that, but the third one will do it for sure`!

[RivNut]

My 63 did the same thing.  This is going to sound weird but the next time the starter "sticks" douse it with a bucket of cold water. Im betting it will work fine.  As the starter aged, the windings in the field coils and armature expand when they got hot and "bonded." Letting the car sit or dousing it cools things down and the field coils and armature contract and the bond goes away.  The shop that rebuilt mine rebuilt it to "high torque" specs (whatever those are) and I never had the problem again.

[telriv]

Ed,

 

   1st. off our starters are " high torque" to begin with.  The ONLY way to make a "SUPER TORQUE" starter is to replace the smaller field winding's is to replace the smaller field coils with 2 larger ones. That's when it becomes a super torque starter.

 

  dbaker9323,

       I would almost be willing to bet that the two re-builders did NOT replace the bushings in the nose & end pate.  What happens is the armature expands when it gets hot & drags on the field coils.  It MAY cool off sufficiently in 30 seconds up to 30 minutes to accomplish this.

 

After you get frustrated enough I could sell you one of my BRAND NEW mini starters.  END OF STARTER PROBLEMS.

 

Tom T.

 

 

[RivNut]

11 hours ago, telriv said:

Ed,

 

   1st. off our starters are " high torque" to begin with.  The ONLY way to make a "SUPER TORQUE" starter is to replace the smaller field winding's is to replace the smaller field coils with 2 larger ones. That's when it becomes a super torque starter.

 

  dbaker9323,

       I would almost be willing to bet that the two re-builders did NOT replace the bushings in the nose & end pate.  What happens is the armature expands when it gets hot & drags on the field coils.  It MAY cool off sufficiently in 30 seconds up to 30 minutes to accomplish this.

 

After you get frustrated enough I could sell you one of my BRAND NEW mini starters.  END OF STARTER PROBLEMS.

 

Tom T.

 

 

I'm guessing that's what he did then.  He said something about increasing the number of windings but at that time I had no real idea as to what he was talking about.  I just know that it never failed again after he "rewound" it.

[johnrex]

I bought a rebuild from Autozone several years ago that I carry as a spare

[dbaker9323]

Great.  Can you tell me the model number - they offer several that say they fit the car, but they have different bolt patterns. Thanks.  Or send me a photo of the starter/bolt pattern.  Thanks.

 

 

[RivNut]

I looked at O'Reilly's site and they show only two for a '64 RIviera.  Just alike except for the brand and the price.

[60FlatTop]

This may sound like throwing a bucket of water on everything but, when your engine is cold put a torque wrench on the crankshaft and see what it takes to turn it over. Then get it to the condition where it won't start. Check the torque required to turn the engine. Hopefully it will be the same. After doing the same repair and getting similar results you need to look elsewhere.

 

Not that a '39 Allis Chalmers and a Riviera have much in common, but one of the spare parts that came with my tractor was a new starter drive and the starter would kick out on the first couple attempts to start in. The drive was the diagnosis. That was wrong, #4 piston was sticking in the bore.

 

It is easy to test the turning torque and will rule out one variable.

Bernie

 

One other thing, a lot of starter barrels and field windings should fit your starter, just have a good shop swap them to your nose. It is rae to find a shop that uses a growler anymore or a starter torque tester. Those tools appear to be obsolete today.

Edited May 14, 2019 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

Am I correct in assuming it does not turn over fast even when cold? Or is it still related to a hot engine.

 

My experience has been a properly rebuilt original starter at a qualified local shop is far better quality than any big box parts store....note "qualified" being the key word. Does the shop have a long standing reputation for quality? All you get at the big box stores are Chinese quality and the warranty they have gives folks blind faith. If you do buy from a big box, DO NOT give up your original starter for a core.

 

Did your mechanic do a voltage drop test on the cables or bypass the cars cables by connecting heavy duty jumper cables to the starter positive and the ground to the block. Either one of these simple tests will eliminate cables as a possible cause. I'd be hesitant to spend more money guessing. Any decent mechanic should be able to identify the root cause on this one.

 

Long shot, but have you or mechanic tried turning engine over by hand just to make sure its not tight for some reason?

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, johnrex said:

I bought a rebuild from Autozone several years ago that I carry as a spare

Are you sure it's the right starter? I went through this a while back. It seems that the books are wrong re the 63 and/or 64 starters.  That is, the starter which they show as the correct part doesn't fit.

[RivNut]

63 and 64 starters are distinguished by the length of the nose piece.  Because the 63 starter ring is on the torque converter and not the flex plate, the nose is much longer.

 

 

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Dual quad is correct in suspecting the wiring. There are a few " factory junction points that tend to get oxidized causing a bad electrical connection. That was the case with my car when my starter acted up. These factory starters seem to be pretty stout. I crank on mine a lot on morning first start until the oil pressure light goes out. Have not had to rebuild yet, still engages and cranks good. You need to go to a competent auto electric shop and have them look at it. If the tech is not working off of a factory wiring diagram I would not waste my time with them.good luck

[steelman]

For several decades, GM built two starters. A high torque and a low torque. Noses were different to bolt to the various blocks, but only two different cases. These were the same external size, but the internal windings were different. Easy to tell the difference from the outside. If there is a spacer and long bolt in the connection to the solenoid, it is a high torque starter. The connection from a low torque starter we about an inch further toward the center of the case and was attached to the solenoid without the spacer. High torque pictured here. I have never seen a big Buick with a low torque starter, most of these were in Chevy's and Pontiacs.

The mini starters TelRiv sells are great. We had a 54 Chrysler New Yorker with a hemi in the shop last fall. Fighting starter issues for a while. Put a mini starter on it and it now starts like a dream. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by steelman (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, RivNut said:

63 and 64 starters are distinguished by the length of the nose piece.  Because the 63 starter ring is on the torque converter and not the flex plate, the nose is much longer.

Right.  The common catalogs list (listed?) the same starter for both, but I can't remember which one you got.

[jsgun]

I'm thinking it's wiring too. Whenever i've had slow starting or dead starters, it was usually the cables. Hidden corrosion under the insulation, or inside the lugs. It was the worst here in the desert, the chinese garbage cables would last for about a year, maybe two, then not carry enough amps to crank. My riv had an issue with the solenoid not pushing hard enough to engage the motor. Turned out the primary power wire had been burned, and had no insulation. I suspect the heat changed it's ability to carry amperage. 

[KongaMan]

As a sanity check, grab the wires and feel the connections after a cranking session.  Are they warm?  Heat is lost power.

[Turbinator]

Tom Telesco has a starter for your car. Tom is a long time member of ROA. Mr. Telesco knows Rivieras inside and out and around again.

Turbinator