'63 wire cap center emblems

[Loren@65GS.com]

I was going through some more of the parts I purchased last month. I noticed that I have two different style '63 center emblems for the wire wheel cap spinner.

Notice the difference in the size of the crosses and the length the stag.  Just thought it was interesting that there would be the difference.

 

 Loren

[J3Studio]

6 hours ago, Loren@65GS.com said:

I was going through some more of the parts I purchased last month. I noticed that I have two different style '63 center emblems for the wire wheel cap spinner.

Notice the difference in the size of the crosses and the length the stag.  Just thought it was interesting that there would be the difference.

 

Different suppliers or changes over time?

[abandg]

If you look close you can see they both have different mounts. One has a piece sticking out and the one on the right has three slots on the back. You can see them through the emblem. This makes sure the emblem is set correctly on the spinner. Gene.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, abandg said:

If you look close you can see they both have different mounts. One has a piece sticking out and the one on the right has three slots on the back. You can see them through the emblem. This makes sure the emblem is set correctly on the spinner. Gene.

Gene,

  These 2 very different `63 centers are the reason I believe there were 2 different versions of the `63 wire covers, the shallow style and the style with a projected spinner. The spinners are different and accept a distinct center

Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

19 hours ago, Loren@65GS.com said:

I was going through some more of the parts I purchased last month. I noticed that I have two different style '63 center emblems for the wire wheel cap spinner.

Notice the difference in the size of the crosses and the length the stag.  Just thought it was interesting that there would be the difference.

 

 Loren

Thanks for posting this Loren. I knew of the difference in the centers regarding they way they index into the spinners but I never realized there was a difference in the design of the tri-shield....very cool little detail,

Tom

[J3Studio]

51 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

These 2 very different `63 centers are the reason I believe there were 2 different versions of the `63 wire covers, the shallow style and the style with a projected spinner. The spinners are different and accept a distinct center.

 

Hah! So different suppliers for the wire covers?

[1965rivgs]

22 hours ago, j3studio said:

 

Hah! So different suppliers for the wire covers?

  Not necessarily different suppliers, although that would not be uncommon for GM or any other corp. to use multiple sources for inventory, but different dimensions/specs without interchangeability of the individual parts.

  Previously, it was common knowledge that only the wire covers with a projected spinner were `63 covers...but I found a handful of covers with the shallow type spinner and the correct `63 centers, which do not interchange with the projected spinner/center. Initially, I thought these shallow center covers were later manufactured service replacements but we have found these covers frequently enough to justify speculating that 2 types of covers were produced in `63. Loren`s post pictures both types of `63 centers.

 

Tom Mooney

 

P.S. Keep in mind during this time period the Fed was putting pressure on auto manufacturers to improve safety and any component that projected away from the vehicle was fair game....think Ben Hur! The spinners themselves would be gone by `67 ...

 

[Turbinator]

On 5/12/2019 at 1:20 PM, Loren@65GS.com said:

I was going through some more of the parts I purchased last month. I noticed that I have two different style '63 center emblems for the wire wheel cap spinner.

Notice the difference in the size of the crosses and the length the stag.  Just thought it was interesting that there would be the difference.

 

 Loren

Yes Sir, true I have not seen the small crosses on the lower left of the shields. Do both emblems indicate they were both manufactured via injection molding? It appears the antlers on the trishield on the left point to the left near the top. I tried to count the diamonds in each row, but I couldn’t make it out. Should be three rows with 7 diamonds in each row. Thanks for putting those up.

Turbinator

[RivNut]

I'm looking at them on my Android (Samsung) tablet.  I can use two fingers, like you can on your phone,  to enlarge the pictures.  There are seven rows of three diamonds, but the one on the lower right is cut off on the bottom by the boarder of the shield; almost to the point of nonexistance on the cap on the left. So maybe  only 20 instead of 21 on that one.

[Turbinator]

9 hours ago, RivNut said:

I'm looking at them on my Android (Samsung) tablet.  I can use two fingers, like you can on your phone,  to enlarge the pictures.  There are seven rows of three diamonds, but the one on the lower right is cut off on the bottom by the boarder of the shield; almost to the point of nonexistance on the cap on the left. So maybe  only 20 instead of 21 on that one.

You are right. Period.

i used a magnifier with headlamp and came up with the same observation. So, we could be both right or both wrong, but we agree.

thank you for taking the time to look. I suppose both were made by injection molding.

Turbinator

[Loren@65GS.com]

Hopefully the judges won't be counting. lol

I just thought it was interesting that there are two different center emblems for '63 spinners on the wire wheel caps.

 

  Loren

[kegart]

I have one '63 wire hubcap that has a emblem like the one pictured on the right. The spinner is held on with 3 screws. What I thought was odd is the spokes were aluminum not stainless. 

 

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: I've put a ton of these together and  STILL can't get the fastener spinner right. It has an arrow somewhere.  The 3 position emblem is a pain. The one with the detente at 8 'o clock is much easier to assemble.   Also, my theory for the change to the shorter 4 fastener spinner was that 64 Electra had skirts. just a theory.  Mitch

Edited May 16, 2019 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Riviera People: I've put a ton of these together and  STILL can't get the fastener spinner right. It has an arrow somewhere.  The 3 position emblem is a pain. The one with the detente at 8 'o clock is much easier to assemble.   Also, my theory for the change to the shorter 4 fastener spinner was that 64 Electra had skirts. just a theory.  Mitch

Mitch,

 

  I researched this recently for an  Electra owner who will be competing at the BCA annual meet...in terms of the Electra models, the wire wheel covers were only available on the `63 model year Electra. The `64-`65 Electra could not be ordered from the factory with wire wheel covers. If the wheel covers were redesigned specifically to fit the Electra models one would think the `64-`65 models would have offered them.

 I was very surprised by this and looked thoroughly through the factory literature and could not find any indication one could order the wire wheel covers on the `64-`65 Electra.

 

Tom Mooney

P.S.  I found this while reading another thread on this site:

 

"FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) outlawed any wheels or wheel covers with "winged projections" beginning on January 1, 1968.  This was the same act that mandated head restraints, shoulder belts and a whole list of safety equipment. "

 

I have not researched this so take it with a grain of salt...I`m surprised legislation did not come sooner  Tom

 

FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) outlawed any wheels or wheel covers with "winged projections" beginning on January 1, 1968.  This was the same act that mandated head restraints, shoulder belts and a whole list of safety equipment.

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[lrlforfun]

4 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Mitch,

 

  I researched this recently for an  Electra owner who will be competing at the BCA annual meet...in terms of the Electra models, the wire wheel covers were only available on the `63 model year Electra. The `64-`65 Electra could not be ordered from the factory with wire wheel covers. If the wheel covers were redesigned specifically to fit the Electra models one would think the `64-`65 models would have offered them.

 I was very surprised by this and looked thoroughly through the factory literature and could not find any indication one could order the wire wheel covers on the `64-`65 Electra.

 

Tom Mooney

P.S.  I found this while reading another thread on this site:

 

"FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) outlawed any wheels or wheel covers with "winged projections" beginning on January 1, 1968.  This was the same act that mandated head restraints, shoulder belts and a whole list of safety equipment. "

 

I have not researched this so take it with a grain of salt...I`m surprised legislation did not come sooner  Tom

 

FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) outlawed any wheels or wheel covers with "winged projections" beginning on January 1, 1968.  This was the same act that mandated head restraints, shoulder belts and a whole list of safety equipment.

 

OK Riviera People: I've put a ton of these together and  STILL can't get the fastener spinner right. It has an arrow somewhere.  The 3 position emblem is a pain. The one with the detente at 8 'o clock is much easier to assemble.   Mitch

 

 

 

 

OK Tom: I believe it. I have seen plenty of 63-66 Electras with spinner wires. I guess they were dealer or owner  installed. Now, why the switch to the shorter 4 fastener spinner/8 fastener center piece for 1964? Could it have been an engineering thing?   Mitch

[RivNut]

I'm going with multiple manufacurers.  Same situation with those unique 64 Buick seat belts.

[telriv]

Tom M,

 

   Would it be possible that the '63 Electra's  did NOT use fender shirts whereas '64 & '65 did???

 

 

Tom T.

[RivNut]

The site is closed for maintenance but the Team Buick site has a complete list of options for all full sized cars.  It's in a spread sheet format.  Every model in its own column and every option on its own line.  You can find your model and scroll down to the option you're looking for and see if was available.  It breaks down wheel covers so that the spoked wheel cover for the LeSabre, Wildcat, and Electra is a different part than the one for the Riviera (different center caps.)  Don't know how long the site will be closed.

[1965rivgs]

41 minutes ago, RivNut said:

The site is closed for maintenance but the Team Buick site has a complete list of options for all full sized cars.  It's in a spread sheet format.  Every model in its own column and every option on its own line.  You can find your model and scroll down to the option you're looking for and see if was available.  It breaks down wheel covers so that the spoked wheel cover for the LeSabre, Wildcat, and Electra is a different part than the one for the Riviera (different center caps.)  Don't know how long the site will be closed.

Ed,

  No need to use second hand info/interpretations. Those sites are often LOADED with mistakes and assumptions. I go directly to the factory wholesale car order forms and the year specific and multi-year accessories/parts books.

Tom

[1965rivgs]

4 hours ago, telriv said:

Tom M,

 

   Would it be possible that the '63 Electra's  did NOT use fender shirts whereas '64 & '65 did???

 

 

Tom T.

Hi Tom,

  I think you are missing my point. IF the wheelcovers were re-designed to clear the fender skirts, and the `64-`65 models had fender skirts, then why didnt Buick offer the wires on the `64-`65 models?

Tom M

Quote

 

 

[1965rivgs]

6 hours ago, RivNut said:

I'm going with multiple manufacurers.  Same situation with those unique 64 Buick seat belts.

 

6 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Riviera People: I've put a ton of these together and  STILL can't get the fastener spinner right. It has an arrow somewhere.  The 3 position emblem is a pain. The one with the detente at 8 'o clock is much easier to assemble.   Mitch

 

 

 

 

OK Tom: I believe it. I have seen plenty of 63-66 Electras with spinner wires. I guess they were dealer or owner  installed. Now, why the switch to the shorter 4 fastener spinner/8 fastener center piece for 1964? Could it have been an engineering thing?   Mitch

Hi Mitch,

  I agree, I was very surprised to find the `64-`65 Electras were not available with the spokes...but with no supporting evidence in the original factory literature for the wire covers as optional equipment I am convinced.

  Regarding your other question, why the switch? Re-read my previous post regarding pressure from the government regarding safety and pending legislation.

Tom

[KongaMan]

IIRC, the parts book shows wire hubcaps for the Electra in 64-5, but not in 63.

 

Not that there’s anything deterministic about this, but a quick scan of google images shows that 63 Electras with wire covers are few and far between.  To put that in perspective, there are more pictures of 63s with rally wheels.  Which is to say that (as with any car of that age), it may have deviated from the original over the years if the owner(s) found something appealing which could be easily added.

Edited May 17, 2019 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Deviated is putting it mildly.  Rally wheels were only available on the Widcat in 1964.  They didn't become available for the Riviera and other models until 1965.  Any rally wheel on a 1963 is definitely a deviation.

 

The pictures of the 1964 Electras show them all with fender skirts.  No way to put a spinner behind them.  The 1963 Electras on the other hand show an open wheel well with a stainless wheel arch molding. 

[KongaMan]

Upon further inspection, the part books don't shed a lot of light on this.  That is, it's not clear which models had available wire wheels in which years.  In some situations, it lists wire wheels for the LeSabre, Wildcat, and (different part #) Riviera; in others, it lists various parts (spinners, etc,.) for "All".  At no point is the wire wheel specifically listed for the Electra for any years 63-66.  However, it does say that there was a 14" wire wheel available for the Riviera in 65.  

 

All that aside, I put wire wheels with red, white, and blue trishields on my 63 Electra and I ain't taking them off.  

 

BTW:

 

[1965rivgs]

On 5/16/2019 at 7:49 AM, 1965rivgs said:

Mitch,

 

  I researched this recently for an  Electra owner who will be competing at the BCA annual meet...in terms of the Electra models, the wire wheel covers were only available on the `63 model year Electra. The `64-`65 Electra could not be ordered from the factory with wire wheel covers. If the wheel covers were redesigned specifically to fit the Electra models one would think the `64-`65 models would have offered them.

 I was very surprised by this and looked thoroughly through the factory literature and could not find any indication one could order the wire wheel covers on the `64-`65 Electra.

 

Tom Mooney

 

 

 

[telriv]

As we all know a '63-'65 Riviera DID NOT have 14" wheels. So something is wrong with the information your looking at.

Where did you find that info???

Are they also installed on the rear Chip???

[KongaMan]

35 minutes ago, telriv said:

As we all know a '63-'65 Riviera DID NOT have 14" wheels. So something is wrong with the information your looking at.

That's kinda the point: documentation isn't always correct or complete.

 

36 minutes ago, telriv said:

Where did you find that info???

Buick parts book.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: While we're on the subject of parts books....I have most of the books that cover the years I collect. 60, 63-64-65 Riv and 66 Wildcat and Le Sabre.  Just a question here....would it be advantageous to possibly have a new thread on the form on " how to read a parts book"  or something along those lines?

 

I really don't know how to look up specific parts and sometimes I just don't  try because i get pissed off that i can't figure it out.  I probably could help many with that info....including myself.  Mitch 

[John]

Can someone post pictures of the 2 different 63 spinners and/or post the casting numbers?  I was aware they changed between 63 and 64, but not within model run.

[Riviera63]

51 minutes ago, John said:

Can someone post pictures of the 2 different 63 spinners and/or post the casting numbers?  I was aware they changed between 63 and 64, but not within model run.

 

I thought I had some pictures but, could not locate them. The early 63 spinners had only 3 attaching screws and it I remember correctly had indents all along the bottom edge that fit over the spokes. The later 63 and up spinners had 4 attaching screws and the outer bottom edge was smooth. Really, the key is the number of attaching screws to differentiate between the two. I hope this helps.

 

Bill

[1965rivgs]

John,

  There are several very thorough threads with pics previously posted on this forum. If you do a search I`m sure you will find a thread which will answer any questions you may have.

Tom Mooney

[Riviera63]

3 hours ago, John said:

Can someone post pictures of the 2 different 63 spinners and/or post the casting numbers?  I was aware they changed between 63 and 64, but not within model run.

 

John,

 

I did find a picture of the early 1963 spinner. It is a little out of focus but, you can see the 3 screw hole pattern and the indents I was talking about. The second picture shows the difference in the screws used to hold the spinners on. The longer screw on the left is the screw for the later 4 hole spinner and the shorter screw on the right is for the early 3 hole spinner.The third picture shows the difference in height of the early wire wheel covers and the later wire covers. The cover on the left is the early cover and the cover on the right is the later cover.

 

Bill

 

P.S. I found a picture of the back of a later wheel cover that shows the 4 screw pattern.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Riviera63
revise text & add picture (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Has it been definitely ascertained that the difference between the taller and shorter wheel covers is a year to year difference?  

[telriv]

Look at the height of the spokes Ed.

[RivNut]

Tom,

 

You didn't read my question correctly.  I've got boxes of these things and see the difference.  I'm asking if the short ones are from one year and the taller ones from another year.  In my boxes of covers, as mentioned in a much older thread, I found short four screw covers, and long three screw covers and there was no correlation to the year of the center cap.  All of a sudden someone has determined that the tall covers are from '63 and the short covers are from 64.  When did that happen and how was it proved?

 

Here are some pictures I took the first time this came up.  I know this one needs to be cleaned up, but that will come later when needed, but you can definitely see three screws holding the center cap on and a '64 Riviera logo on the inside of the cap.  Three holes - later cover. Doesn't jive with what's just been said.  This topic was originally discussed back on August 15, 2015, the date I took this picture along with a bunch of others.  Including one that shows the differences in heights - when laid  flat

 

  

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

Tom,

 

You didn't read my question correctly.  I've got boxes of these things and see the difference.  I'm asking if the short ones are from one year and the taller ones from another year.  In my boxes of covers, as mentioned in a much older thread, I found short four screw covers, and long three screw covers and there was no correlation to the year of the center cap.  All of a sudden someone has determined that the tall covers are from '63 and the short covers are from 64.  When did that happen and how was it proved?

 

Here are some pictures I took the first time this came up.  I know this one needs to be cleaned up, but that will come later when needed, but you can definitely see three screws holding the center cap on and a '64 Riviera logo on the inside of the cap.  Three holes - later cover. Doesn't jive with what's just been said.  This topic was originally discussed back on August 15, 2015, the date I took this picture along with a bunch of others.  Including one that shows the differences in heights - when laid  flat

 

  

 

 

Where`s the heavy rubber pad or silly putty backing for the center? Looks to me like someone has been into this cover jacking around as evidenced by the missing/broken screws. Ed, take the cover apart and lets see if the center properly indexes into the spinner. I suspect someone was in there playing games,

Tom Mooney

Edited May 20, 2019 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Riviera63]

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

Tom,

 

You didn't read my question correctly.  I've got boxes of these things and see the difference.  I'm asking if the short ones are from one year and the taller ones from another year.  In my boxes of covers, as mentioned in a much older thread, I found short four screw covers, and long three screw covers and there was no correlation to the year of the center cap.  All of a sudden someone has determined that the tall covers are from '63 and the short covers are from 64.  When did that happen and how was it proved?

 

Here are some pictures I took the first time this came up.  I know this one needs to be cleaned up, but that will come later when needed, but you can definitely see three screws holding the center cap on and a '64 Riviera logo on the inside of the cap.  Three holes - later cover. Doesn't jive with what's just been said.  This topic was originally discussed back on August 15, 2015, the date I took this picture along with a bunch of others.  Including one that shows the differences in heights - when laid  flat

 

  

 

 

 

I am in no means trying to get into a pissing match with anyone. All I was trying to do was differentiate for John the differences in the Riviera spinners no more no less. It has been well established by many on this forum that the first 1963 Riviera wire wheel covers were taller than the Riviera wire wheel covers that came later. It has been also well established by many on this forum that the early 1963 Riviera Wire wheel covers were a 3 hole spinner and that the later Riviera wire wheel covers were 4 hole spinners. These facts I believe to be true and no one will convince me otherwise.The only part that is interchangeable between the early and later wheel covers is the center medallion. The tab on the later center medallions would have to be ground off to use on the early spinner though. Is it possible that someone put a 64-65 center medallion in a 3 hole spinner? It is possible. We all know that over the course of 50 years things get mixed and matched (or mismatched) on a regular basis. 

 

I do not know how the wire wheel covers for the other Buick models were configured or constructed. Were they the same as the Riviera wire wheel covers other than the center medallion or were they different in some regard? I don't know. I do know that there were wire wheel covers used on other Buick models other than the Riviera that were the same height as the later Riviera wire wheel covers and there were some shorter than the later Riviera wire wheel covers. See Pic. The cover on the left is an NOS later Riviera wheel cover and the one on the right an NOS Buick wire wheel cover with the Red, White and Blue center medallion used on other models. I bought it thinking it was one of the covers that was used on other models that was the same as the Riviera cover and discovered it was shorter. This cover could have accepted a Riviera center medallion. With that you get covers with 3 different heights used on Buicks but, only 2 of the those being used on the 63-65 Riviera. 

 

That's all I have to say about that.

 

Bill

 

 

[RivNut]

I think that we're all chasing rainbows until someone comes up with a parts book and parts numbers can be found on the covers.

 

I'm going to do as Tom requested and take apart the the three bolt spinner that I have and see if the 64 center indexes into the spinner.  If it does, the door will be opened once again.  I thought that we had this pretty much resolved back in Aug of 2015.

[Riviera63]

11 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I think that we're all chasing rainbows until someone comes up with a parts book and parts numbers can be found on the covers.

 

I'm going to do as Tom requested and take apart the the three bolt spinner that I have and see if the 64 center indexes into the spinner.  If it does, the door will be opened once again.  I thought that we had this pretty much resolved back in Aug of 2015.

 

A 1964 center will index into a 3 bolt spinner just as an early center medallion will work on a newer wire wheel cover if you add the rubber backing pad. The center medallion on my spare wheel cover is from an early 63 3 bolt cover. One would have to grind off the locating tab on the newer center to make it work with the 3 bolt spinner. The center hub on the early 3/6 bolt covers had 3 prongs on the top that would index into 3 slots on the back of the center medallion. When they went to the newer center medallion with the locating tab and the rubber backing pad they were still manufactured with the 3 indexing slots on the back. See pic. Once the center medallion was placed on the center hub the spinner sat on top. This was a trickier set up when it came to getting the 3 screws into the spinner than the newer covers.

 

Bill

 

 

[KongaMan]

FWIW, I have a cover with a 3-hole spinner on a 4-hole hub.  Whoever did it had to drill holes in the hub to line up with those in the spinner, then grind away the spokes to provide clearance for the screws.  Putting it back together was like a Chinese puzzle.