Dynaflash8

Is hobby interest in pre-WWII cars Dying?

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I saw a gas engine powered Maytag washer, with ringer, at a 4-H chicken BBQ, along with some other antiques, and early Ford tractor, and I think an early Ford pickup, late 1930's I suppose. Didn't have my camera. The linkage to operate the washer agitator was interesting, and it had a shift lever to make the ringer work.

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7 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

 

Bravo, bravo, bravo!   I think this is exactly right -- just perfect.  And let me make explicit what is implicit in this, that a great online presence for the marque is key.   Every younger person interested in a car is going to start by googling it.  If they can easily find a website that has tons of information and seems to be a community, that is a huge draw for prospective owners.  

This is absolutely the most important thing.  We launched the website in October and I have been shocked by how many people visit and are searching for information.  With only 77 known cars to exist and a relatively obscure brand, it is easy to assume that you would have to be an owner to want to search for information or be interested in Cole.  Well, here are the stats for the site since launch in October as of this morning:

 

Total visitors:  758

Total pages viewed:  4188

Avg pages viewed per visitor:  5.52 (so most visitors are not just stumbling on to the site by accident or through a search where they were looking for something else)

Average visitors per week currently is about 26

The biggest challenge is to get your search engine optimization right with Google and others.  We have worked on this and have risen in the search rankings when someone searches for Cole motor car company or a specific year or make of a Cole car.  The site is not popping up when people search in Google and this started happening in probably March or so.  A good example of this is from October to the Dec 31 2018, our biggest referrer was Facebook with sending 109 visitors to the website and only 57 visitors coming from search engines.  In 2019 since about March we have 278 visitors coming from Search engines like Google and about 87 from Facebook and 22 from Wikipedia.  We are now averaging 3 visitors per day from search engines so it is picking up.  

 

I have attached some screenshots of the data.  Think about this data and what it means.  Even if you threw out half of the visitors as people going to the wrong site, that is still quite a good amount of people looking for information about the Cole Motor car Company and the cars.  If this site didn't exist, how do these people find information and stay engaged?  They may run across static sites like Wikipedia with some information, but what about a community aspect?  it would be completely missed.  

 

It will be interesting to track this over time and see if interest continues to increase or if it decreases over time.  This is just the data and the data tells the real story, not my opinion.  

 

This chart shows the stats year to date for 2019.  I do not have likes or comments enabled on the site.  

Colestats1.thumb.PNG.a4bf68a0f8ed3d31e7690b0aa388f4db.PNG

 

This chart shows where people are visiting from for 2019 Year to date.

Colestats2.thumb.PNG.e6178c31e4a43291e532813a9ab13d22.PNG

 

This is site data for May 18-21st.  We had the Cole Owner meetup the weekend of May 18 at the Gilmore Pre 42 event with 10 Coles there.  You can see typical traffic on May 19th, however the day of the show and the Monday and Tuesday after had pretty big increases of people looking at Cole information.  

Colestats3.PNG.290a3c35c8a40024db1b577ce314891e.PNG

 

Here is referrer stats for May.  As you can see 77 searches in May.  

Colestats4.jpg.49b2bcd4923890dedbc9b9dbc15d3813.jpg

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

People collect fans, radios, TVs, Marshmallow cookers, toasters, vacuum cleaners, record players, record makers, etc, etc. 

I am actually aware of the collector groups you mention. My son has few "collector" fans and I used to collect/restore old pin ball machines, Parker Vacuumatic fountain pens, have restored and use 1930's GE monitor top refrigerators ( I have a nice model CK for sale ), and treasure, and still use, my Sunbeam T-35 toaster ( a Raymond Loewy design ). But you make my point. The collectors, or people even vaguely interested, in such things are outliers and a miniscule segment of the population with not enough mass to support a meaningful parts/service sector.  Much the same as collectors of today's commodity type appliances, (automobiles), will be in the future...............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, kfle said:

This is absolutely the most important thing.  We launched the website in October and I have been shocked by how many people visit and are searching for information.  With only 77 known cars to exist and a relatively obscure brand, it is easy to assume that you would have to be an owner to want to search for information or be interested in Cole.  Well, here are the stats for the site since launch in October as of this morning:

 

Total visitors:  758

Total pages viewed:  4188

Avg pages viewed per visitor:  5.52 (so most visitors are not just stumbling on to the site by accident or through a search where they were looking for something else)

Average visitors per week currently is about 26

The biggest challenge is to get your search engine optimization right with Google and others.  We have worked on this and have risen in the search rankings when someone searches for Cole motor car company or a specific year or make of a Cole car.  The site is not popping up when people search in Google and this started happening in probably March or so.  A good example of this is from October to the Dec 31 2018, our biggest referrer was Facebook with sending 109 visitors to the website and only 57 visitors coming from search engines.  In 2019 since about March we have 278 visitors coming from Search engines like Google and about 87 from Facebook and 22 from Wikipedia.  We are now averaging 3 visitors per day from search engines so it is picking up.  

 

I have attached some screenshots of the data.  Think about this data and what it means.  Even if you threw out half of the visitors as people going to the wrong site, that is still quite a good amount of people looking for information about the Cole Motor car Company and the cars.  If this site didn't exist, how do these people find information and stay engaged?  They may run across static sites like Wikipedia with some information, but what about a community aspect?  it would be completely missed.  

 

It will be interesting to track this over time and see if interest continues to increase or if it decreases over time.  This is just the data and the data tells the real story, not my opinion.  

 

This chart shows the stats year to date for 2019.  I do not have likes or comments enabled on the site.  

 

 

This chart shows where people are visiting from for 2019 Year to date.

 

 

This is site data for May 18-21st.  We had the Cole Owner meetup the weekend of May 18 at the Gilmore Pre 42 event with 10 Coles there.  You can see typical traffic on May 19th, however the day of the show and the Monday and Tuesday after had pretty big increases of people looking at Cole information.  

 

 

Here is referrer stats for May.  As you can see 77 searches in May.  

 

 

 

This is probably a good discussion that warrants its own topic rather than being buried in here. A week ago I wrote a long topic on this very subject but never hit post simply because I was afraid it would devolve into the usual discussion. Perhaps I was mistaken. There's a lot to do if we're going to engage young people and our biggest problem is that we're simply not speaking their language. It's more than just a website, it's figuring out how to operate on their level. There's much derision of young people using their phones and social media, but that is how they communicate and do business today. Ignoring them and their preferred methods of communication is probably a big turn off.

 

I've seen a lot of people on this forum who think young people are idiots who only care about Facebook and looking at their phones, and that's a mistake. Those same young people think you're an idiot for being willing to wait six days to get a piece of information that should be available in seconds. The problem isn't that young people aren't interested, they just aren't interested in doing it the way we used to do it. It isn't unreasonable for them to want instant access to information because that's how their entire world works and has since they were born. And I think theirs is a valid complaint that many clubs have yet to adequately address.

 

Anyway, this topic deserves its own thread with informed discussion. It's more than just a website and letting them know there's a club. Way more. It's changing how the clubs and the hobby operate that is key to attracting and keeping them involved. 

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Still think the hobby is more diluting than waning, there are just so many more choices. Take my current no-rush project (still in collecting parts stage & two in local yards). No rust or dents, all glass intact, runs and drives, some assembly required, under a grand (under $100 in 1960 and would have been a '40 then) invested.

passide800.jpg

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35 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I've seen a lot of people on this forum who think young people are idiots who only care about Facebook and looking at their phones, and that's a mistake.

 

It is a mistake that has been around since the second generation of people. I still remember my early experiences in the hobby at 13 and 14 years old.

009.jpg.1345fc4a4ebcd168de2d94264aeb0f94.jpg

 

Nasty, surly old men that I just disassociated from. There were plenty of publications to enjoy and close friends my own age. I was in my early 30's before I got involved with the organized hobby. 70 now, and still don't care to associate with old men. They carry the badge of some self perceived Rite of Passage the was harder, tougher, and more enlightening than any future generation could comprehend. Better left alone.

 

Just last night I heard some grousing about a kid who bought a new truck and didn't go to the dealer his father always went to, a real scourge to the family. I asked how old the kid was; 50, the old guy told me.

Myopia is not limited to only a physical condition.

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This is probably a good discussion that warrants its own topic rather than being buried in here. A week ago I wrote a long topic on this very subject but never hit post simply because I was afraid it would devolve into the usual discussion. Perhaps I was mistaken. There's a lot to do if we're going to engage young people and our biggest problem is that we're simply not speaking their language. It's more than just a website, it's figuring out how to operate on their level. There's much derision of young people using their phones and social media, but that is how they communicate and do business today. Ignoring them and their preferred methods of communication is probably a big turn off.

 

I've seen a lot of people on this forum who think young people are idiots who only care about Facebook and looking at their phones, and that's a mistake. Those same young people think you're an idiot for being willing to wait six days to get a piece of information that should be available in seconds. The problem isn't that young people aren't interested, they just aren't interested in doing it the way we used to do it. It isn't unreasonable for them to want instant access to information because that's how their entire world works and has since they were born. And I think theirs is a valid complaint that many clubs have yet to adequately address.

 

Anyway, this topic deserves its own thread with informed discussion. It's more than just a website and letting them know there's a club. Way more. It's changing how the clubs and the hobby operate that is key to attracting and keeping them involved. 

Matt,

 

you are correct it’s not just a site, that is table stakes.  Several posts earlier I had other lessons learned which included ways we have evolved and are not a club.  No membership fees, no Hierarchy and politics,  electronic only, meet ups instead of formal meetings, one to one or one to many connection facilitation, and my son does other stuff such as snap chat,etc. Very far from perfect but a start.  My first old car was a 1931 Model A that I got a few years ago and I joined MARC and the local region group.  A formal hierarchical structure, monthly meetings, monthly lunches and breakfasts during the week and in mornings when anyone who worked couldn’t attend, and endless debate about what tours or drives to do because many had already done everything.  What new person to the hobby wants to come to something like this?  I had so many questions and asked where I can go to for different types of needs and what stuff I should have with me when I am driving, etc.   The answer was we need to get more welcome packets printed at the printer.  I asked can’t you email it to me?  Nope.  I didn’t complain and I offered to do the newsletter which I did for 8 months.  I tried to adapt things and drive some change but it was such a process and resistance that I just couldn’t do it any longer and invest the time.  I remember one of the monthly meetings where there was a 30 minute debate about whether they should raise the annual dues by $5.  It just isn’t productive and it was a bigger hassle to pay by check than any amount the dues would have been.   What person under 35 uses checks or even carries cash.  I’m in my 40s and I don’t use either.   Now don’t get me wrong, when we actually had an event or tour it was always a great time and I loved it but it was just so much other bureaucracy to get to that point and if you didn’t join the breakfasts and lunches you kind of felt like a bit of an outsider.  I did not renew my membership to that club or to MARC.  

 

I agree about another thread with a serious discussion and not just saying the sky is falling or the golden age is over.   I have been in the tech industry for 27 years and I have a mentality of launch quick, learn, adapt, and optimize.  The only thing consistent in my world is rapid change.  

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Posted (edited)

I have the feeling the hobby will ultimately evolve toward this sort of model anyway. The only potential speedbump is the abrupt transition between the youthful "instant information" participants and us dinosaurs. It's going to happen one way or another. Time stands still for no one. 

 By the way many of us gray hairs don't care much for the at times needless back and forth seemingly inherent in club administration . But it seems to come along with nearly any larger organization. And generally speaking any event of more than a dozen or so participants seems to need quite a bit of behind the scenes work.

I like your point of almost no person under 35 carrying cash. Perhaps that is why they are so rare at swap meets where cash is generally the only way to pay . Commercial venders excepted of course, but they are 99% on the web anyway. Swap meet presence are  generally just a local delivery system for items pre sold electronically.

 There might be a few hiccups  along the way for pop up events, however I am sure time and evolution will win out.

Time has indeed slowed down within the old car hobby, that is after all part of the attraction. 

But no doubt the changing generation will bring the principals of "launch quick, learn , adapt and optimize" to the fuddy duddy world of old cars. It took all we could muster as a group several generations just to master learn. The millennials are truly Uber.

 

P.S., your post has reminded me just how I have stood still since I was 35 or 40, 100 years ago ? Still pay cash for everything ...as advised by nearly every personal finance person out there. Still the only phone I own is the one connected to the wall with a wire on my kitchen counter. A symptom of Canada's more or less highest in the world cell phone rates. The more the world changes , the more obsolete us dinosaurs become.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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I read 60 Flat Top's post:  My  grandmother would talk about "the old people" and she was talking about them right up to her death at 101 years old - it is a frame of mind and there are a lot of "old" 20 year old people just as there are "old" 90'ish year old people, as well as "old" people of every age in between (her point that you can be 101 and "young" is very well taken). 

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5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This is probably a good discussion that warrants its own topic rather than being buried in here. A week ago I wrote a long topic on this very subject but never hit post simply because I was afraid it would devolve into the usual discussion. Perhaps I was mistaken. There's a lot to do if we're going to engage young people and our biggest problem is that we're simply not speaking their language. It's more than just a website, it's figuring out how to operate on their level. There's much derision of young people using their phones and social media, but that is how they communicate and do business today. Ignoring them and their preferred methods of communication is probably a big turn off.

 

I've seen a lot of people on this forum who think young people are idiots who only care about Facebook and looking at their phones, and that's a mistake. Those same young people think you're an idiot for being willing to wait six days to get a piece of information that should be available in seconds. The problem isn't that young people aren't interested, they just aren't interested in doing it the way we used to do it. It isn't unreasonable for them to want instant access to information because that's how their entire world works and has since they were born. And I think theirs is a valid complaint that many clubs have yet to adequately address.

 

Anyway, this topic deserves its own thread with informed discussion. It's more than just a website and letting them know there's a club. Way more. It's changing how the clubs and the hobby operate that is key to attracting and keeping them involved. 

True about the iPhone people , the one week TV "restorations" aren't doing anything about teaching reality. On the other hand, can they fund a car build by staring into that cell phone while typing away?

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2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

P.S.,Still the only phone I own is the one connected to the wall with a wire on my kitchen counter. A symptom of Canada's more or less highest in the world cell phone rates. The more the world changes , the more obsolete us dinosaurs become.

 

Greg in Canada

My phone is on the desk in front of this keyboard. Do the Canadians with cellphones use an obscenity every 6-10 works while tapping the thing looking for a photo or something? That is one HUGE turn off for me. Who wants to listen to that trash talk while they try to find a photo of their cat. 

 

Bob 

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Most older people can ID a Lozier, Thomas Flyer, and MERCER at a quick glance, not so with late models.What is this blue car? passide800.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Mercedes Benz

 

The other brands you mentioned I would need to see the logo on the front.  I’m 67 yrs old.

Edited by TerryB (see edit history)

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One big part of the organized,  dues paying sort of club as opposed to the instant information, virtual club is liability insurance. If a club ever moves from the pop up sort of event to one where the general public might attend insurance is sooner or later going to rear its head. And all the rules , costs that comes with liability coverage.  Keep it small, keep it spur of the moment thanks to instant information and you have it made. But not something keeping vintage cars in the public eye.

 

Greg in Canada

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

One big part of the organized,  dues paying sort of club as opposed to the instant information, virtual club is liability insurance. If a club ever moves from the pop up sort of event to one where the general public might attend insurance is sooner or later going to rear its head. And all the rules , costs that comes with liability coverage.  Keep it small, keep it spur of the moment thanks to instant information and you have it made. But not something keeping vintage cars in the public eye.

 

Greg in Canada

 

We have always done meet ups at another event, that way not a worry.  Big national clubs provide that and are great at that and is why I belong to the Aaca, HCCA, and CCCA.  At large scale that makes complete sense.  Or there are plenty of cars shows that you can meet up at and do a small tour to the show.   In Michigan there is a car show within 30 miles of you every day of the week during the summer on either the East side or the West side of the state.  Our local HCCA group did a small tour to a flag day car show in Grand Rapids on Friday.   It was put together in less than two weeks.  Now with Marc you paid the national club and got the big benefits then you paid the local club and that did not cover any insurance as the national club covered that.  Just paid for printing, renting meeting rooms, postage and other stuff throughout the year.   

 

There are are probably three types of groups and one size or method does not fit all

 

1. National club like the AACA

2. Local or regional club 

3. Registry or support org for a particular marquee  

 

All three have different purposes and serve a different role and each will have their own method of modernization with some methods being shared across all three. 

Edited by kfle (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

True about the iPhone people , the one week TV "restorations" aren't doing anything about teaching reality. On the other hand, can they fund a car build by staring into that cell phone while typing away?

You might be surprised!  My iPhone usage is probably 3 hours a day as I am working and getting things done.  I can work anywhere at anytime and do.  It’s being always connected and efficiency.   What used to take three hours of research to find at a library or looking in a file cabinet at a business can now be found on your phone in minutes.  I also use a very well known restoration shop for my cars.  I am learning more and more and doing work on my cars now for more things but not everything yet.  

 

I have found the pre war cars to be a great escape from the always on connected world of today and I know others who are feeling the same.  

 

Message posted from my iPhone just like my other messages today as I have been at a car show, at the store, doing yard work, and out on the lake.   These devices help you stay connected in real time as you are doing things and having fun.  People aren’t just sharing cat photos like internet memes suggest.

Edited by kfle (see edit history)

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John,

     Although many of collector car owners are aging out of the hobby, the number of true collector cars is not decreasing.  I believe we are seeing a slump in activity as aging collectors quit driving or pass away.  Their cars will eventually find homes with relatives and even some younger collectors.  But I expect that many of the rarer cars will find homes in museums and larger collections and will not be driven much if at all.  And that will be an unfortunate loss for everyone.  

     As in any hobby with collectables, activity and market values are cyclical.  I believe collector cars made by long dead craftsmen will always be more valuable than modern "jellybean cars" made by robots.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

 But I expect that many of the rarer cars will find homes in museums and larger collections and will not be driven much if at all.  And that will be an unfortunate loss for everyone.  

 

 

It seems to me that most car museums are private enterprises calling themselves "museums". They function as museums during the lifetime of whoever originally funded them but very few seem to survive the demise of the founder. They aren't museums in the same sense as the Met or the National Portrait Gallery. Lots of "museum" cars come up for sale - it is a regular topic of discussion here because the seller usually takes that description as meaning something good while the informed buyer has an altogether different view of museum cars. Even the museums that do stay in business are often "deaccessioning" things. This can be a major bone of contention when someone donates dad's beloved automobile to a museum and two years later it appears on the auction block - but that is the reality of the museum world.

 

Cars are really too complicated and require too much maintenance for most museums to take care of properly. If they were really concerned about the artifacts, they ought to be a lot more selective in what they accept - but then, if they can sell them and keep the money why be picky.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

True about the iPhone people , the one week TV "restorations" aren't doing anything about teaching reality. On the other hand, can they fund a car build by staring into that cell phone while typing away?

 

I fund my hobby doing pretty much exactly that, I work in IT and do a lot of my work via my mobile. 

 

Then again, not many people in there 30’s have 97 year old cars 🤔

 

It certainly hasn’t been a quick process, but I’ve learned a lot. I’ve done all of the assembly work at home (machine work I don’t have the equipment for) including new rings, checking all the bearings and replacing a damaged top cover (that holds the Cam)

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On 6/14/2019 at 12:31 PM, 1912Staver said:

 

 But the people willing to devote a large part of their lives to the understanding of many as possible of the numerous aspects of old cars are a truly threatened group.  They are often not part of that top 20% or so whose affluence increases each year.

Usually not wealthy enough to belong to the "arrive and drive"  group, and increasingly not wealthy enough to make the uphill, lifelong journey worthwhile or practical.

 

 

 

In order to have a productive analysis on this topic and determine how to optimize for the future we need to stop using generalizations based on stereotypes.  In this thread I have seen many examples of this such as the next generation Is always on their phone or they are so broke.  They don’t make any money so they could never buy a car.  Here is an interesting piece of info that I just saw today in the Detroit free press:

 

To be sure, many millennials do not fit stereotypes, such as being difficult to manage, impatient and unsatisfied with work.

Not all millennials are wondering how they're going to pay the next cell phone bill, either. 

As a group, millennial households — ages 23 to 38 in 2019 — now earn more than young adults did in nearly any time in the past 50 years, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of new census data. 

The median adjusted income in a household headed by a millennial was $69,000 in 2017, according to the Pew study. That is a higher figure than for nearly every other year on record, apart from around 2000, when households headed by younger people earned $67,600 in inflation-adjusted dollars.

 

so as we see based on actual US data, millennials are earning more than any previous time in the last 50 years except for 2000.  Here is the link to the actual article about a hair dresser making over $200k per year in Detroit. https://www.freep.com/story/money/personal-finance/susan-tompor/2019/06/15/aesthetic-hair-co-alex-pardoe-detroit/1298297001/

 

Now whether they live in a high rent place like California or New York is a factor and who knows if they would be interested in pre war cars, but let’s not assume that the new generation is worse off than previous generations and make hasty generalizations. 

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40 minutes ago, kfle said:

The median adjusted income in a household headed by a millennial was $69,000 in 2017

 

If the argument is that a FAMILY earning $69,000 per year is in a position to cover any but the most basic living expenses I suggest one draw up a mock budget including taxes, food, housing, medical insurance, transportation, clothing etc. etc. etc. Just for laughs throw in the average 1.8 children (The price tag, in today's dollars, for a baby born in 2015: about $233,610 from birth through age 17 for a middle-income family). Note: That's PER CHILD to age 17 and does not include savings towards a secondary education.

I'm curious to know what the amount left over to restore, maintain and show that 19**  Belch Fire 8 might be. Don't forget to include the $100 rubber chicken banquet tickets, $150 per night room cost, road food and the $25 per day trailer parking fee and fuel and tolls. Lets figure on two maybe three shows a year.............Hey.........I'm just sayin.............Bob

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Posted (edited)

I support my family of 5 for less than $69,000 a year.  I can tell you where every penny I make goes.  It can be done if you budget and live in an area with a low cost of living.

 

I just paid cash for a barely used camper yesterday.  Debt free other than the mortgage.

Edited by 39BuickEight (see edit history)
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Cost of living varies greatly from state to state, city to city.

If you make in the low 6 figures in So Cal you can barely afford a decent neighborhood and one collector car.

But move that income to somewhere like Kentucky and you're rolling in the dough.

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What I pay in Property tax every year I could buy a new Full size 4 wheel drive extended cab Pickup every 5 years. 

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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

I'm curious to know what the amount left over to restore, maintain and show that 19**  Belch Fire 8 might be. Don't forget to include the $100 rubber chicken banquet tickets, $150 per night room cost, road food and the $25 per day trailer parking fee and fuel and tolls. Lets figure on two maybe three shows a year.............Hey.........I'm just sayin.............Bob

Skip the shows and put the money in the car.  

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