Electric cars and Tesla (PLEASE leave politics out of this thread!)

[1912Staver]

Now that is interesting !  Here in often gray Raincouver B.C.  things might take a bit longer to reach the break even point. But long term it definitely would be promising.

 

Greg

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

Chinese built electric sports car rumored to be coming to the US in the near future.  Has solar panels built in the roof.

 

 

 

 

So does (did) Fisker: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?109564-Hey-buddy-how-many-Watts-that-thing-got&highlight=fisker

 

Craig

[countrytravler]

13 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

You might find this interesting. Tesla batteries in an EV conversion.

 

Here is another guy, independent that does the same almost. He buys all the wrecked Teslas and transfers the power plant to any car you want. He is about 30 and from Germany. The place is in NC. Me delivering a wreck Tesla.

[countrytravler]

To jump start a Tesla.

[countrytravler]

[Buffalowed Bill]

The production of electricity in the West has been dominated by hydroelectric sources for around eighty years. Coulee Dam went on line in 1941. That single dam produces 25% of the electricity produced in the US. As I mentioned previously, the state of California has been so successful in coming on line with newly created solar and wind infrastructure, that it no longer has the need for some of the power, it once purchased from the NW's Bonneville power grid. While I believe that it's great what is happening in the SW, I wonder if trading one source or renewable power for another, is going to be a long term solution to our energy needs. 

[countrytravler]

[countrytravler]

[countrytravler]

[countrytravler]

[countrytravler]

2 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Just a thought, but you might want to delete the word TESLA from the heading and that might keep the discussion more civil and fair, and allow the conversation to focus on the important general topic of electric vehicles. 

I haul Teslas for a living.

[zepher]

Currently, the best way to hook up solar panels is to have micro-inverters on each panel.

That way each panel puts out the max it can without affecting the other panels.

Panels connected in series or through a large, central inverter will only collectively produce what the lowest performing panel will produce.

If a single panel is dirty or patially shaded the entire system drops to that that level.

 

If each panel has a micro-inverter then each panel puts out the max it can and it will not be dragged down by another panel that may be operating under less than ideal conditions.

Many homes have panels on more than one area of the roof so all of the panels do not get the same amount of sun load.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by zepher (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

I believe that improved battery technology is the key to greater practicality and market acceptance.

 

Mercedes has an innovative approach for one of their models:

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

2 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Well, it takes 4 days to charge a Tesla from a conventional 120V circuit.  How many solar cells are you going to put on this garage?

We need the rest of this statement. What size battery pack in your Tesla and what is the amperage of a conventional 120 V circuit please? We are 240 V and our circuits are 10 A.

 

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

Like I posted this before, these solar panels are 5 kw. When they were first installed, I saw the meter, showing they were delivering that, and installed correctly.

You can use that to charge your "Power Wall" home battery, during the day. Then the "power wall" transfers the energy to your car at night.

But then, you can buy another car for the cost of the PowerWall and installation.

[billorn]

I think its good to see that the article in the first post says that a electric car could get 40 miles on a charge at 25 MPH and today they get 250 miles at 75 MPH with alot more luxury. People keep saying there are still limitations with electric cars which is probly true but also they have gotten alot better and will keep getting better. We cant forget that technology marches on and that they have already made very big improvments in electric cars. Pretty soon nobody will be able to say that they dont want a electric car because of the compromises because their wont be any!! It used to take overnight to charge them and now they can mostly charge in an hour or two. They will solve that problem soon enough.

[Spinneyhill]

38 minutes ago, zepher said:

Panels connected in series or through a large, central inverter will only collectively produce what the lowest performing panel will produce.

Interesting. Our panels face east and west (two halves if you like). The inverter shows the current coming from each side. In the morning, more comes from the east and in the afternoon, the west. But I will certainly read up on what you say here. I have seen a system set up with a inverter on each panel and didn't really understand what he said about why he did it that way.

 

I am looking forward to the efficiency of solar panels rising way above the current 20% or so. It would be even better if the entire car covering ("paint") would harvest electricity. There are already foldable solar panels.

[TerryB]

41 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

We need the rest of this statement. What size battery pack in your Tesla and what is the amperage of a conventional 120 V circuit please? We are 240 V and our circuits are 10 A.

 

In the US, most 120v ac are good for 20A max assuming the wiring supports that. The 220v home hookup will be higher for things like water heaters, electric cloths dryers, cooking stoves and so forth.  Tesla battery packs can be 60kw, 80kw or 90kw.  A Tesla specific supercharger charger offers the quickest charging.

[mercer09]

d:

Well, it takes 4 days to charge a Tesla from a conventional 120V circuit.

now they can mostly charge in an hour or two

 

which is it? an hour or two or 4 days??????????????????????????????????

[Spinneyhill]

9 minutes ago, TerryB said:

In the US, most 120v ac are good for 20A max assuming the wiring supports that. The 220v home hookup will be higher for things like water heaters, electric cloths dryers, cooking stoves and so forth.  Tesla battery packs can be 60kw, 80kw or 90kw.  A Tesla specific supercharger charger offers the quickest charging.

Thank you. We also have 400 V delivery, but I think everything is 240 V. The hob is a high amperage circuit though.

 

So four days at 2400 VA or W = 230 kW.hrs. Surely a "90 kw" battery is 90 kW.h?

 

What have I got wrong here? Maybe it is not charging at 20 A. If it takes 4 days, maybe it is only charging at about 8 A?

Edited May 2, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[maok]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

Interesting. Our panels face east and west (two halves if you like). The inverter shows the current coming from each side. In the morning, more comes from the east and in the afternoon, the west. But I will certainly read up on what you say here. I have seen a system set up with a inverter on each panel and didn't really understand what he said about why he did it that way.

 

I am looking forward to the efficiency of solar panels rising way above the current 20% or so. It would be even better if the entire car covering ("paint") would harvest electricity. There are already foldable solar panels.

Spinney, you will find that your inverter has two independent inputs, one for the east array and one for the west array.

[KongaMan]

OTOH, a Tesla-specific supercharger likely requires an upgrade to your home wiring to 400A service -- and it slows down the charging rate dramatically well before the battery is full.

 

Let's do basic math: The median price for the purchase and installation of a PowerWall is ~$20,000.  Own the car for 5 years, that's $4000/year.  For that $4000, you can buy 1000 gallons of gas at $4/gallon.  At 25MPG, that's 25,000 miles per year.  Which means that unless you're driving that Tesla more than 25,000 miles per year, it costs you more for fuel than does the IC car.

[Rusty_OToole]

56 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Thank you. We also have 400 V delivery, but I think everything is 240 V. The hob is a high amperage circuit though.

 

So four days at 2400 VA or W = 230 kW.hrs. Surely a "90 kw" battery is 90 kW.h?

 

What have I got wrong here? Maybe it is not charging at 20 A. If it takes 4 days, maybe it is only charging at about 8 A?

Typical home electrical circuit in the US and Canada is single phase 120v 15A. Service to the home is 2 phase 240v. Typical panel size is 125 amp, or 200 amp for large homes or homes with electric heat.

 

So, the basic plug in charger will be 120v and say, 10 or 12 amps. This will maintain or slowly charge a Tesla. You can have a special circuit and plug wired into your panel and out to the garage, allowing you to charge at 240v and 30 or 40 amps. This will cut charging time to overnight.

 

The batteries in a Tesla can't stand freezing. The car has a battery heater built in, that runs off battery power. When power goes too low it shuts off and the batteries freeze. Then you have to tow it to a heated garage to slowly warm up or risk damaging the battery or blowing up the car. The 120v charger avoids this, it provides just enough juice to keep the batteries warm in freezing conditions.

[CarNucopia]

5 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

An interesting statement by the gent doing the Porsche conversion in the video. " you can charge it on solar " . Is this a practical charging method ? How long would this take ? Assuming a solar cell that a less than millionaire's can afford, say an all up cost similar to the cost of the same sort of energy provided by gasoline. Would it take say 200 years of use to amortise the cost of the solar cell ?

 

Greg

 

A typical 65” x 39” solar panel makes @ 320 w/hr. To charge a car with a 100KW battery in four hours, you would need around 78 panels, assuming you are getting full sunlight.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

OTOH, a Tesla-specific supercharger likely requires an upgrade to your home wiring to 400A service -- and it slows down the charging rate dramatically well before the battery is full.

 

Let's do basic math: The median price for the purchase and installation of a PowerWall is ~$20,000.  Own the car for 5 years, that's $4000/year.  For that $4000, you can buy 1000 gallons of gas at $4/gallon.  At 25MPG, that's 25,000 miles per year.  Which means that unless you're driving that Tesla more than 25,000 miles per year, it costs you more for fuel than does the IC car.

 

Plus, don't forget the cost of the electricity itself which will be much more costly than todays KWH as cheap and reliable fossil fuels are outlawed..................Bob

[TerryB]

3 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Plus, don't forget the cost of the electricity itself which will be much more costly than todays KWH as cheap and reliable fossil fuels are outlawed..................Bob

Or it’s possible prices will stay the same or go lower as better non-fossil fuel systems come on line.  It’s a glass is half full / half empty argument when you are speculating on the future.

[ply33]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

We need the rest of this statement. What size battery pack in your Tesla and what is the amperage of a conventional 120 V circuit please? We are 240 V and our circuits are 10 A.

 

 

Typical outlets in the US are on either 15 or 20 amp breakers (depending on wire gauge used). The 110/120 V charger that came with my plug-in hybrid limits itself to 14 amps, so it can provide something like 1,500 to 1,600 watts to the car.. For my car, that works out to about 5 or 6 miles for every hour of charge. That will vary, of course, depending on how many kWh/mile your car gets.

[ply33]

20 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Plus, don't forget the cost of the electricity itself which will be much more costly than todays KWH as cheap and reliable fossil fuels are outlawed..................Bob

 

From what I've been reading, new wind generation including associated storage equipment needed to make the supply "utility grade", is costing less per kWh than new fossil fuel plants. For example: https://meic.org/issues/montana-clean-energy/cost-of-wind-vs-fossil-fuels/

[zepher]

6 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Interesting. Our panels face east and west (two halves if you like). The inverter shows the current coming from each side. In the morning, more comes from the east and in the afternoon, the west. But I will certainly read up on what you say here. I have seen a system set up with a inverter on each panel and didn't really understand what he said about why he did it that way.

 

I am looking forward to the efficiency of solar panels rising way above the current 20% or so. It would be even better if the entire car covering ("paint") would harvest electricity. There are already foldable solar panels.

 

Sounds like your inverter has more than one input leg and monitors them independently.

Most inverters do not because multi input inverters are pricey.

But, the situation would still hold for each section of panels.

That section can only produce what the lowest panel in that array can produce.

If a panel begins to have issues producing, for any reason, the entire array on that leg will be degraded.

For example, if one of the panels in that array went bad, the entire array on that leg goes down.

With micro-inverters, if one panel goes down, the rest of the array will continue to produce power.

 

But I agree, as panels become more and more efficient and the cost drops they will become commonplace.

 

Another often overlooked benefit of rooftop panels is the artificial shade they create.

In places where the sun is especially brutal in the summer the artificial shade can help to lower attic temperatures significantly, thus reducing heat bleed into the living areas of the home.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by zepher
clarification (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Troubles with roof mounted panels are that they introduce holes into the roof and leakage may ensue, and that someone has to walk around a lot to fit it and keep it clean. Our house is terracotta tiles and they are a bit easy to break, so our panels are on the red shed, which is painted zincalume steel. I haven't noticed the shed being any less hot on a summer's day but there is still a fair bit of it exposed to the sun.

 

I have read a bit more on inverters etc. in response to your posts and I can say that when ours fails, it will not be a similar type that replaces it!

 

I used to be able to monitor the output on computer. To get wifi into the shed I used a mains network adapter. But when we changed modem-router, the new one wouldn't allow that. Poot!

Edited May 3, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[TerryB]

The EV supercar in China is called the Qiantu K50 and the US cars are planned to be built near Spokane, Washington.  Price is expected to be $125k.

 

[ply33]

1 hour ago, zepher said:

Another often overlooked benefit of rooftop panels is the artificial shade they create.

In places where the sun is especially brutal in the summer the artificial shade can help to lower attic temperatures significantly, thus reducing heat bleed into the living areas of the home.

 

 

In the SF Bay Area it seems that many parking areas are now being roofed over with solar roofs. That is a bit of a "two for one" as you get both shade for the parked cars and power. Land cost is basically zero and you can often design it so the angle is good for power generation. Amazingly, I don't see that as much in Southern California where it would make more sense to me.

 

And I've seen very little of it in Southern Arizona. I've seen all sorts of shade structures over parking areas in Arizona but little, if any, solar power on them.

 

I guess it comes down a little to local culture and a lot due to local utility rates. PG&E in the SF Bay Area is horrible. SoCal Edison and/or LA DWP are more reasonable on rates. I've not paid a power bill in Arizona so I don't know how bad it is there but my guess is electricity is cheaper there than in California.

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, ply33 said:

 

From what I've been reading, new wind generation including associated storage equipment needed to make the supply "utility grade", is costing less per kWh than new fossil fuel plants. For example: https://meic.org/issues/montana-clean-energy/cost-of-wind-vs-fossil-fuels/

 

The article you cite doesn't mention the storage problems or associated costs. But that and comparative electricity costs are beside the point. I was commenting on the fact that kongaman's post did not include the cost of TODAY's electricity in his calculation. I take no position on the relative merits of wind/solar/tidal schemes over fossil fuel generation. My position of EV vs fossil fuel transportation is that there is a place for EV's but they cannot at this time rationally replace IC vehicles in toto. My position on driverless vehicles is "ditto"................Bob

[maok]

8 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

The article you cite doesn't mention the storage problems or associated costs. But that and comparative electricity costs are beside the point. I was commenting on the fact that kongaman's post did not include the cost of TODAY's electricity in his calculation. I take no position on the relative merits of wind/solar/tidal schemes over fossil fuel generation. My position of EV vs fossil fuel transportation is that there is a place for EV's but they cannot at this time rationally replace IC vehicles in toto. My position on driverless vehicles is "ditto"................Bob

 

Rationally, they can replace IC vehicles, but the political and economical 'will' is not available as yet. Change will occur, it always does, but most likely via economic means, not environmental. Most EV's can meet most peoples driving needs, however, there is small percentage where an EV will not meet some needs of people.

[Frank DuVal]

3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Typical home electrical circuit in the US and Canada is single phase 120v 15A.

 

Minimum circuit is 15 amps. I have not wired a residential or commercial multiple receptacle circuit with 15 amps in over 40 years. 

 

3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Service to the home is 2 phase 240v.

 

 

 

That's single phase 240. I know, this is a very common misconception. But if you look at the oscilloscope trace, it is the same phase, just the amplitude is twice as high at the 240 terminals.

 

Two phase is a really old service only seen in a few places in this country. None in Virginia that I know of. The phases are 90 degrees out of phase with each other.

 

3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

 

Typical panel size is 125 amp, or 200 amp for large homes or homes with electric heat.

 

Well, for the southern states that use electricity for heating and cooling (AC and Heat Pumps), 200 is the minimum and more and more are 400 amp (actual 320 amp) services around here. I have not installed less than a 200 amp meter base since the 1970s! OK, temporary pole services have been less.😉

[alsancle]

7 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

The production of electricity in the West has been dominated by hydroelectric sources for around eighty years. Coulee Dam went on line in 1941. That single dam produces 25% of the electricity produced in the US. 

 

That can’t possibly be true. Do you mean 25% of hydroelectric production?

[Bhigdog]

12 minutes ago, maok said:

 

Rationally, they can replace IC vehicles, but the political and economical 'will' is not available as yet

 

Rationally............sensible, reasonable

 

EV's at present can meet many peoples needs. Some with little or no problems. Some with a certain amount of problems. Some with a great deal of problems. And a great many for whom the problems are a deal breaker not from an economic stand point but from a pure unsuitability for the job at hand problem.

I'm not willing or qualified to speculate on the percentages of folks who fall into which category but I'm guessing that the present EV vehicles would fall far short of being suitable daily drivers for vast swaths of American drivers.............Bob

 

[zepher]

1 hour ago, ply33 said:

 

In the SF Bay Area it seems that many parking areas are now being roofed over with solar roofs. That is a bit of a "two for one" as you get both shade for the parked cars and power. Land cost is basically zero and you can often design it so the angle is good for power generation. Amazingly, I don't see that as much in Southern California where it would make more sense to me.

 

And I've seen very little of it in Southern Arizona. I've seen all sorts of shade structures over parking areas in Arizona but little, if any, solar power on them.

 

I guess it comes down a little to local culture and a lot due to local utility rates. PG&E in the SF Bay Area is horrible. SoCal Edison and/or LA DWP are more reasonable on rates. I've not paid a power bill in Arizona so I don't know how bad it is there but my guess is electricity is cheaper there than in California.

 

Here in So Cal, a lot of Walmart locations have had overhead solar panels installed in parking lot areas providing power and the shade you mentioned.

Also, most local agencies have installed parking lot overhead panels in water district and school parking lots.

Provides power while also providing 'covered' parking for employees and visitors.

[zepher]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Troubles with roof mounted panels are that they introduce holes into the roof and leakage may ensure, and that someone has to walk around a lot to fit it and keep it clean. Our house is terracotta tiles and they are a bit easy to break, so our panels are on the red shed, which is painted zincalume steel. I haven't noticed the shed being any less hot on a summer's day but there is still a fair bit of it exposed to the sun.

 

I have read a bit more on inverters etc. in response to your posts and I can say that when ours fails, it will not be a similar type that replaces it!

 

I used to be able to monitor the output on computer. To get wifi into the shed I used a mains network adapter. But when we changed modem-router, the new one wouldn't allow that. Poot!

 

If work is done correctly, there should be very little increased risk of water intrusion into the roof.

My next door neighbor has panels on a terra cotta roof and he has had zero issues with water intrusion.

He uses a very long extension ladder and a long handled wand to clean his panels.

It seems to work very well for him although he is covered in dirty water residue when he's done.

 

If your shed is not insulated as well as your house and does not have an attic you may not notice the added benefit of the artificial shade from the solar panels.

 

I am glad that you found my posts about inverters useful, many solar installation companies do not properly educate customers on all of the options and the benefits of those options.

Most just want to keep the costs as low as possible and while the lower costs solutions will work they will not perform as well as a higher priced, more robust solution.

 

One more thing to add about using a large, central inverter as opposed to micro-inverters on each panel.

With a single inverter if you want increase the number of panels and increase your total output you will most likely need to purchase a new inverter.

With micro-inverters on each panel you can add or subtract as many panels as you like without the need to replace an inverter.

 

And no, I do not work for or own a solar installation company.  😊

But I was a double E major in college before I switched to IT and I have done quite a bit of research on the subject since I am planning on designing and installing my own system very soon.

 

 

[CarNucopia]

As an alternative to figuring out what renewable source is best, you can do what Tesla does and opt for diesel generators.