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GregLaR

Color Change Effect on Value?

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Type in Tupelo Mississippi Car Museum Auction in google. Do t know how to post a link. Ed

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1 hour ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Ed, can you provide a link to the auction?

It would be interesting, at least, to view the lots on-line.

 

John,


There are at least two different threads in General talking about this auction.

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Back in the 60s and 70s you had the stock colors for cars and interiors but in reality you could special order any color or combination in the inventory. I ordered a 70 Buick and a 72 Pontiac both in a deep green with saddle interior. Not in the catalog was not a problem back then.

 

Also I have not seen the positional quality noted. Growing up on Florida's Gold Coast bright colors were common.

 

Personally do not care for black cars, currently have two each red, white, and blue (not intentional just worked out that way).

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Posted (edited)

There are certainly bad choices possible using the factory ordering system. When the C5 Corvette first came out, we were given an allotment of 12 early production cars (we were the GM skunkwerks at the time). We could order them in any combination we wanted. At the time the C5s were very much in demand and selling for well over sticker, but we were keeping them for our upgrade package rather than simply selling them stock. In an attempt to build an "instant collectible" one of our guys ordered up a green one with a red interior. Yep.

 

Better yet, Fairway Green was discontinued after 1997, making it the lowest production of all colors and a one-year-only option until a different green showed up in 2000 or 2001. 

 

I'm guessing that we had the only green-on-red C5 Corvette ever built, we converted it to one of our hot rod versions, and it's probably still out there as a one-of-one. Unlikely that it's any more valuable than any other, and possibly considerably less valuable simply because it looked ridiculous. But it was definitely rare.

 

PS: We accidentally discovered Pewter with a red leather interior was drop-dead gorgeous and sold a few of those, too, even though it sounds awful on paper.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Green on red, ugh!

Reminds me of this oddball 1970 Eldorado that pops up every now and then.

Finished in Nottingham Green Firemist which, when ordered with the white leather interior, is absolutely stunning.

 

nottingham1.jpg

 

However, somebody decided to to order the same Nottingham Green Firemist with red leather interior. It couldn't be worse.

 

nottingham2.jpg

Edited by GregLaR (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

True, oddly brg on red was popular on many Brit cars, the MG T series comes to mind.  Like those first fwd Eldos, kid from grade school whose dad was mobbed up had one in wisteria.  Of course we did not know proper name for the color then, but I guess those mob guys really all do drive Caddys, or did anyway. 😊

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)
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What a coincidence that a lot of these bright colors date back to the 70s.  I wonder what could explain it....

 

1309272188_ScreenShot2019-04-26at12_53_36PM.png.1d3c4bd80d1120720db3d538f34747b6.png

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Posted (edited)
On 4/25/2019 at 3:42 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

Ed, can you provide a link to the auction?

It would be interesting, at least, to view the lots on-line.

Here is the link

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25593/

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25593/live/

 

Sidenote:  Auction is heavy in memorabilia so it is easier to start on the last page and work toward the first page. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

By the way, except for things incredibly well restored (not just pretty w/great cosmetics, but truly well and authentically restored with incredible care to every aspect of the restoration), certain sports car, certain muscle cars, plenty of convertibles, and cars suited for Concours events, there is plenty of talk that we are already in an antique automobile sales recession whether or not people know or acknowledge it yet. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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On 4/25/2019 at 3:56 PM, 1935Packard said:

Here's an example of a slightly "out there" color that is also correct and original to the car -- my 1949 Cadillac in chartreuse.  In 1949, Cadillac only offered the color on convertibles, and after a few months they dropped the color offering because few people wanted a color that bright. I think it looks really cool, and my sense is that the market actually gives the chartreuse convertibles a slight boost if they are original to the car (color code 21).  And if not, at least it's not a demerit.  But I get a lot of questions about the color, and it's not to everyone's taste.

 

1397943692_ScreenShot2019-04-25at12_50_01PM.png.b115cbc3c0c52c8c8b215d80600d786e.png

 

I think it looks really sharp. I'm reminded of Corvette Chartreuse from the 1977 model year—supposedly only 1 out of 49,213 were built with that color.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, j3studio said:

 

I think it looks really sharp. I'm reminded of Corvette Chartreuse from the 1977 model year—supposedly only 1 out of 49,213 were built with that color.

Kind of different, great marque matched to great year, and top goes down - that being said my experience selling antique cars is you take a hit with green and even those who like/love green skill play "hard to get" and ask for a discount. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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15 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

By the way, except for things incredibly well restored (not just pretty w/great cosmetics, but truly well and authentically restored with incredible car to every aspect of the restoration), certain sports car, certain muscle cars, plenty of convertibles, and cars suited for Concours events, there is plenty of talk that we are already in an antique automobile sales recession whether or not people know or acknowledge it yet. 

 

I'm frequently asked if "the market" is strong. I find that to be an impossible question to answer, just as I would wonder whether there's an actual "sales recession" at any point. Some segments of the hobby remain strong while others are shrinking and maybe looking like a recession. I don't think any of these are a reliable barometer for the health of the hobby as a whole any more than looking at just automaker stocks can summarize the condition of the stock market. Rich people will always be rich and will always buy cars because they can afford it. They aren't foolish, but they don't stop buying cars when everyone else is suffering (mostly because they're not). However, people with finite resources absolutely do stop buying cars when the economy shivers and I am the very first one to see it happening in real. Nobody needs what I'm selling and if things get skittish and their future is uncertain, people buying sub-$100,000 cars using home equity loans completely vanish.

 

We've discussed this many times, and it remains that popular cars are popular and unpopular cars are unpopular. Always have been, always will be. With a shrinking cross-section of hobbyists, whether through attrition or age, there are inevitably going to be more seats than butts, no matter what the old adage says about a butt for every seat. There are no longer sufficient numbers of hobbyists to support all the 1928 Oldsmobile sedans and 1931 Graham project cars that need to find homes. The aging of the hobby is surely a significant factor demonstrated by nothing so significantly as the contracting values on 55-57 Chevys. Once a blue-chip "investment" they are now seeing shrinking values and even the best cars struggle to bring six figures today and they'll all fall below that threshold not too long from now. Does that mean the hobby in general is suffering? No. It means that the people who feel an emotional connection to 1957 Chevys are no longer buying those cars. They (or their heirs) are selling them instead, and there aren't as many people coming along to buy them--my father is 81 but his first new car was a 1962 Chevy so those with an emotional tie to even something as recent as 1957 are becoming fewer. The people with a connection to that particular car are disappearing and the next generation does not have that emotional link so they're simply not interested. But that doesn't mean they aren't interested in anything at all--why are 1978 Pontiac Trans Ams bringing $75,000? The bogey has moved, but it isn't dead.

 

In any segment where there are more sellers than buyers, things might look pretty bleak. I don't care what you paid, how much you spent to restore it, or what your father claimed it was worth before he died, if your car lives in a buyer's market, you're gonna think everything is tanking. Meanwhile, Cord L29s have doubled in value in the last 5 years, Enzo-era Ferraris seem to have no downward curve to their values, and even relatively common machines like early 1970s Porsche 911s are scalding hot. There is still a very healthy market and a healthy hobby out there, it's just in a different place than it was 10 years ago. And it'll be in a different place 10 years from now. I think the only reason we're noticing is because we have so much more access to information than we did before the internet.

 

Desirable, valuable, and pedigreed cars will never see a recession. All the others, sooner or later, will have the wheel of interest roll right past them.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with MOST of what Matt said.....Porsche market has started to slide already. Since I have never owned, worked on, or intend to buy one I make this observation from close friends who make their living in this small segment.  BUT the junk is sliding, the great stuff is still great......which is what always happens. 57 T Birds have been steady since the mid 80’s unless it something very special. Lower prices across the board are fine..........if you don’t have a bunch of your net worth in the garage............he’ll, if the entire market goes south, that means I will be able to afford a few cars I want. For the last twenty five years I have owned between 8 and 20 cars, three years ago I got down to three........the final three I intend to keep till they put me under. Just my choice of timing........no other reason, not trying to time the market. The cars  I work on every day are still on fire.......and gaining. The top .0005 percent of the market is just fine.........and I can confirm that several times over the last ten weeks. Watch the Tupelo auction today and tomorrow, the equipment went for middle of the road as expected prices, signs were stronger than I expected......but my guess is there were a handful of dealers pushing them up to mid to high wholesale, some looked like retail to me. Hopefully the cars do as well tomorrow. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Desirable, valuable, and pedigreed cars will never see a recession. All the others, sooner or later, will have the wheel of interest roll right past them.

 

Dead on.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

even relatively common machines like early 1970s Porsche 911s are scalding hot.

If you call and say that you are looking to buy your "first" car and you have never been in an antique or collector car, there are a lot of questions to be asked.  If you are "green" to the hobby I fairly often suggest trying a Porsche 356, 911, or a Mercedes 280 SL (perhaps also a 230 or 250), they tend to be fun cars and at least around the Indiana and Southern Ohio (plus for customers in such as Los Angeles) areas you have solid handfulls of people that can repair one, vibrant club activity, and also they can substitute for a summer daily driver.  As to price - it is pure market and you gain or suffer per market, how you maintain your car, and ....  And, if I put you in a really nice one then no matter what it's issue are a year or even 5+ years later, if you tire of it and want to move it along to get something else then I can sell it in often a day (we rarely have ever had one in inventory more than two full weeks and car after car from parts cars to 100 pointers trade hands per year without ever seeing the website - surprisingly as to color even the green painted one sell quick, but the white ones still take a little more work to find new owners). 

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

By the way,  this green car  "knocked my socks off" in how stunning the car looked in person (and I am not a fan of green cars) - color is "Stanhope Green" and is a custom order color per the car's original build sheet . 

003LC.jpg

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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And the J tanked also.....400k. I posted a 375 estimate. 

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6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

And the J tanked also.....400k. I posted a 375 estimate. 

 

Not that I would turn it down, but that was a pretty homely J with unknown mechanicals. There are plenty of scary things to do in this world, but buying a Duesenberg with an unknown engine state is among the most terrifying.

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I have a hard time with non-correct color choices growing up with a fine point restorer for a father. My biggest grip is the when a color is chosen that takes away from the coach-build or detracts from the lines of the body. Some of the example pictures have contrasting reveals and pinstripe which help but no... 

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Posted (edited)

I would argue that the Duesenberg Rollston Sedan is far from homely (close coupled, unusual dropped sill line, and ...) in potential (obviously the car just needs close to everything at this point in time) - I truly hope if found a buyer who will restore it well. 

1026123816_J-547-2527rollstonprinceofwales.thumb.jpg.4134d3b7ba5f40a2ae19b290bf7ac52f.jpg

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

There are plenty of scary things to do in this world, but buying a Duesenberg with an unknown engine state is among the most terrifying.

I was standing at the workbench at Fran Roxas' shop and he was showing me a stitch weld crack repair in a Duesenberg cylinder head - and he made the alarming comment that he sees via his shop about 50% needing some sort of crack repair (he  mentioned though casually and did not seem alarmed and I did not give it much thought either until speaking with someone who did have an unrepairable one).  Good news is stitch welding looks like a really solid solution, but bad news is when a head or .. would be so bad that there is no solution. 

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The heads crack way more often than the blocks.............rolling the dice on a J engine is major league gambling. 75 -125k and possibly more. That being said, I suspect it went to a good home if my grapevine is correct. The Nash was very cheap........color, condition, and color. 

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