1921-1923 EJ Roadster Owner needing assistance

[GJP]

Good day to all you Studebaker owners out there.

I have inherited a 1921 – 1923+ “hybrid” Studebaker Roadster from my father and I am trying to complete its restoration. I say hybrid because the engine S/N is 33980, the chassis S/N is 1,020,078 and the body S/N 100,054.  The body has a cowl vent, side lights on the windshield frames and rectangular holes where the rain shields get installed. It has a Wagner starter (EM356A), Wagner generator (EM-355) but has a Remy coil and Remy 626K (1925?) distributor mounted on a 45347 -2 distributor support bracket with 14/5 tooth igniter gears.

I will be asking members of the forum for assistance in obtaining mechanical parts that I will need for its restoration and for obtaining your input on technical assistance that I will most certainly need.

My more immediate needs would be for mechanical type parts and in particular for ignition/timing components.

While the car does run with the parts it has, I am hoping to find a set of 1923 EM Type 45 timing sprockets with the 15 tooth accessory drive sprocket. (42-21-15) as this would match the current igniter gear ratio of 2.8 to 1. (I understand from the paperwork I obtained that the car current has a 1927 – 15 tooth sprocket installed that has been badly damaged after only about 40 hrs of operation).

Another option I have would be to source the earlier distributor support bracket (43572 or 45183 and igniter gears in a 15/5 configuration compatible with the Remy 626K ) as I do have the original (42-21-14) sprockets and timing chain for the motor (Casting date 91721).

Having said all that does anyone have;

1.       A set of good condition 1923 EM timing sprockets they are willing to part with?

2.       Earlier distributor support bracket and 15/5 igniter gears that they are willing to part with?

Looking forward to any feedback you may have.

Thanks Glen

[rbk]

Where are you located?

I have many parts for these light sixes that Scott brought down from Michigan 

There are quite a few timing chains in these bins.

If you or a friend can come down to Joliet Il. that would make it easier.

It is hard for me to find items because I am old and slow.

Robert Kapteyn

studebaker@mac.com

[GJP]

Hi Robert,

 

Thank you for responding to my post. I live in Calgary Canada and have the car located on a farm about 5 hours drive north from Calgary. The option of going to Joliet later on this summer is a possibility although it makes for quite a round trip from Calgary. Is it possible for you to do a little digging at your own pace of course to see if you have the 42-21-15 sprockets? It would help make the trip more worthwhile from my perspective? 

 

Glen

gpruden@telus.net

 

[Old buicks 2]

GJP,   check with Tom VanMeeteren for all you ignition parts.   From his ad in "parts for sale"   402-359-5762   or tsvanmeet@gmail.com     He as a boat load of obsolete ignition parts

[rbk]

Glen

Do you have a parts book so you can give me part numbers?

a lot of parts in these 20 some totes have part numbers.

I may have some extra parts books if you do not have these.

These cars really fascinate me and I wish to be able to get these parts

to the right people but I need help with this.

I am in a wheelchair most of the time and only can walk a short distance.

I am 82 years old and have this huge warehouse full of parts from 29 Studebaker

dealers that closed their shops in the late 60's

Any volunteers in Northern Illinois? 

Edited April 15, 2019 by rbk (see edit history)

[GJP]

Good morning Robert,

 

I have the 4 Sections of the 1919 to 1922 Parts Manual and the Light Six Service Manual but unfortunately do not have a parts manual for the 1923 EM's which is what I would need for getting numbers for the timing sprockets. The Light Six Service Manual (Insert No 60) indicates that "beginning with the 1923 EM Series cars at S/N 1,084,001 a new chain designated Type 45 was introduced. All sprockets used with the new chain will be stamped "Type 45" on the front face. The new accessory shaft sprocket has 15 teeth instead of the original 14 teeth." 

What I would need is the 42 tooth, 21 tooth and 15 tooth sprockets with "Type 45" stamped on them.

Regards, GLen

[GJP]

Old Buicks 2,

 

Thank you for the contact information. I was in touch with Tom late last year and managed to procure a 626K distributor cap, rotor and condenser from him. He was definitely great to deal with.

Regards, Glen

[studeboy]

The cam shaft sprocket is part number 120006.

The crankshaft sprocket is part number 120011.

The accessory shaft sprocket is part number 120012.

As for the timing chain. According to the parts book the morse chain and all the other types that followed on the standard six , Ge etc. are interchangeable.

[GJP]

Thanks Bryan for looking up the part numbers..

[bluetaxi]

It looks like someone has installed an EM oil pump / distributor / generator setup on your EJ.

[GJP]

Hi Bluetaxi

 

The car as it currently sits does have quite a mix of components. Its one of those rarer versions that comes with two oil filler locations one based on the EJ and one based on an EM as you rightly noted. Its likely going to take me quite some time to rectify the anomalies

 

Regards Glen

[Stude Light]

I have a full set of EJ sprockets along with a 4 lobe distributor drive gear if you can't find what you need and want to revert to the 1920-22 setup if the sprockets you have are messed up. They are all in excellent shape. I also have the distributor support housing with the older drive gear. This all came off a 1922 engine, although it was fitted with a Delco Remy distributor - probably off something from the late 20s. I also have a Wagner coil if you need one.  I know Robert has several Wagner coils.

 

Robert should have a Morse Type 45 crankshaft drive sprocket on the end of a worn out crankshaft I gave him.  I know I didn't give him a cam sprocket but he may have the Type 45 accessory drive sprocket.

Scott

Edited April 16, 2019 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[GJP]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for responding to my post. I am interested in obtaining the distributor support housing with the older drive gear and a distributor gear as I believe I do have original sprockets and chain (I say believe, as neither the sprockets nor the chain have any identifying markings on them) (PS. You are dealing with a novice here who knows very little about old Stude's). Could you send (gpruden@telus.net) or post a couple of pictures so that I can better visualize the components?

 

I am interested in your comment about "4 lobe" drive gear? - did the EJ's have a 12/4 (3.0 ratio) ignitor gear arrangement. (In my original post I mentioned a 15/5 setup which was maybe incorrect).

 

I have sourced a Wagner coil already and am still hoping that Robert has the Type 45 sprockets.

 

Pics of my spare sprockets and chain attached.

[Stude Light]

This is a photo of my engine (early 1923 with aluminum head - s/n EM102190) when I assembled it and the location of the "Type 45" markings on the sprockets.  Note: The marking on the accessory drive sprocket didn't showed up too well but you can see it better on the disassembly photo. This should at least help with identifying the Type 45 parts.

 

I purchased my timing chain from:

Dave Thibeault

13 Nick Lane

Maynard, MA 01754

978-897-3158

Dave may be able to answer questions on the chains.

 

My "pre-Type 45" parts are still rather greasy and tucked away so you'll have to give me some time to dig them out.

Scott

[rbk]

Scott

There are several chain in these totes.

You bought a new chain from Dave.

What are these chains for that are in the totes.

If you have the older setup for Glen , what should I be looking for.

Shall I remove the sprocket from the crank you brought.

I just need more time to sort the totes and inventory these.

I have a complete oil pump and some sprockets from other dealer

inventories and several distributors and generators and starter from

different years.

Bob

[GJP]

Robert,

 

I am hoping you can still find Type 45 sprockets. Studeboy noted above that they should be ;

The cam shaft sprocket is part number 120006.

The crankshaft sprocket is part number 120011.

The accessory shaft sprocket is part number 120012

 

Thanks

Glen

 

[Stude Light]

Bob,

A couple of those chains are tagged but I believe they are all used - may not all be Light Six.

Glen is looking for the 1923/24 sprocket setup that uses a "Type 45" chain. I'm pretty sure the sprocket on the end of that crankshaft should be marked "Type 45" (see photo I posted for locating).  If so, then I suggest removing it.  You should find a couple of other accessory drive sprockets in one of those bins.  If it has 15 teeth it is a "Type 45".  If it only has 14 teeth it goes with the older chain design (1920-1922).  I don't recall a spare cam sprocket in those bins but I may be mistaken.  If you find one just look for the "Type 45" stamp.

Scott

[Stude Light]

13 minutes ago, GJP said:

Robert,

 

I am hoping you can still find Type 45 sprockets. Studeboy noted above that they should be ;

The cam shaft sprocket is part number 120006.

The crankshaft sprocket is part number 120011.

The accessory shaft sprocket is part number 120012

 

Thanks

Glen

 

Glen,

Unfortunately, only a few castings would have part numbers cast in.  The rest of these old parts generally have no markings and are just piled in boxes.  Most people's collections from the 1920s are this way so unless you know exactly what to look for it is hard to identify.  The only usefulness I found for part numbers is to identify which model years and models might be common. Here is a good example...Studebaker right rear fenders.  What year? What model? What body style?  I have no idea, just know it is from a 1920s Studebaker so unless you have something to match it to, it's a crap shoot.

Scott

Edited April 17, 2019 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[rbk]

Scott and Glen

I will remove that sprocket from the crankshaft if Glen found the other parts needed and that sprocket is the last item needed.

I will look through my other light six parts early next week ,wen I go back to my shop.

Right now I am really preoccupied by my wife's pending surgery which is quite risky at her

age (89).

 

[Stude Light]

Bob,

Prayers and best wishes for your wife's surgery and speedy recovery.  At that age just the anesthesia is a risk. Take care of the important stuff.

Scott

[GJP]

Robert,

 

Agree entirely with Scott - family first then hobby/business. I am not in any urgent rush for the three sprockets. Best wishes for your wife's surgery and recovery.

Regards, Glen

[studeboy]

When I worked on the timing chain on my 1924 light six I went through the studebaker parts books. The same sprocket part numbers for the later EM are used all the way up to the end of that family of six cylinder engines. An example, cam shaft sprocket part number 120006 according to the 1928 to 40 six part book was used on: GE, GJ, GL, S1, 53. Older parts books also show this part number for the standard six and EM. The same is true for the other two sprockets. The parts book shows a number of different chains by different manufacturers but the same sprockets were used for at least 10 years. They list each new chain type as superseding the previous one.

 

I ended up removing the hunters link from my chain as per the repair manual. That took care of the slackness issue.

[rbk]

Thanks Studeboy for your contribution.

I am happy that Glen is not in a hurry so we can solicit more contributions.

I have been able to help several people with parts that Scott saved and hopefully I can set up a webpage with pictures of the parts in the 20 or so totes he brought down.

I wonder how many members have experience in working on these Light six engines.

Somewhere in my pile of parts , I have a light six engine that is covered with baked on grease

that I have not been able to find the serial number but has an aluminum accessory bracket.

What years had different accessory brackets and when did they go to cast iron?

As a side note, my wife has always been a Studebaker supporter and never complained about my hobby of saving parts and even was secretary of our local SDC chapter.

Robert Kapteyn

[GJP]

Thank you Studeboy for providing more background information on the sprockets. 

Glen

[Peter R.]

Glen,

The 1922 Studebaker EJ was originally equipped with Remy or Wagner electric:

Generator:  Remy 917-A or Wagner EM355

Starter:  Remy 720-C or Wagner EM356

Distributor:  Remy 606-A and 626-A or Wagner K97

Could help you out with an original Remy or Wagner Distributor as well as with NOS parts such as caps, rotors, points etc.

626-K was originally used on 1925-27 Studebaker Standard Sixes (ER, EU, EY).

Let me know in case I can be of help.

 

Pete

[GJP]

Hi Pete,

 

Thank you for your post and information. While the car currently runs with the Remy 626K, I do have a passing interest in ultimately returning the car to its more original setup. If you have a 626A or K97 I would be interested in obtaining some pictures from you and also knowing what your asking price would be. My Email address is gpruden@telus.net

Regards

Glen

[rbk]

Glen

I found a cam sprocket marked 120006 but I can not find a "45" mark on it.

I also found a N.O.S. whitney chain.

I have not found the accessory sprocket yet and I am still going through the totes to find these.

[Stude Light]

2 hours ago, rbk said:

Glen

I found a cam sprocket marked 120006 but I can not find a "45" mark on it.

I also found a N.O.S. whitney chain.

I have not found the accessory sprocket yet and I am still going through the totes to find these.

Bob,

That sprocket must have "Type 45" stamped on it to be correct.  Look at the location of the arrow in the photo I posted earlier in this thread.....basically on the machined center portion between the bolt holes.

Scott

[GJP]

1 hour ago, Stude Light said:

Bob,

That sprocket must have "Type 45" stamped on it to be correct.  Look at the location of the arrow in the photo I posted earlier in this thread.....basically on the machined center portion between the bolt holes.

Scott

Bob/Scott,

 

Thanks for keeping up the search for the Type 45's. Much appreciated. Glen

 

[studeboy]

If you look in the Studebaker Parts book B for the Standard six on page 202-c there is a note that chains 120007 (Morse), 122205 (link belt) and chain 122050 (Duckworth) are replaced by chain 125718 (Whitney).

All these chains run on the same sprockets. The last chain part number 125718 was used on late standard sixes and continued through GE, GJ, GL, S1, 53. This would indicate that these chains are interchangeable. The parts book does not mention type 45 being stamped on the sprocket only on the front of the outside link of the morse chain.

If Robert has a new chain of any of these types it should work on the later EM sprockets.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by studeboy
added image (see edit history)

[GJP]

1 hour ago, studeboy said:

If you look in the Studebaker Parts book B for the Standard six on page 202-c there is a note that chains 120007 (Morse), 122205 (link belt) and chain 122050 (Duckworth) are replaced by chain 125718 (Whitney).

All these chains run on the same sprockets. The last chain part number 125718 was used on late standard sixes and continued through GE, GJ, GL, S1, 53. This would indicate that these chains are interchangeable. The parts book does not mention type 45 being stamped on the sprocket only on the front of the outside link of the morse chain.

If Robert has a new chain of any of these types it should work on the later EM sprockets.

 

Thank you Bryan for the information provided about the different chains that can be used (I don't have the standard Six manual so didn't know that). Interestingly, it seems that Studebaker must have changed the requirement to have the sprockets stamped with Type 45 in the later years as  the Light Six Service Manual write-up  indicates they would be stamped (have attached a pic from the manual)?

Hopefully Robert can find some, especially the 15 tooth accessory sprocket as this is the one that is chewed up on my car.

[bcw]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:16 AM, rbk said:

Glen

Do you have a parts book so you can give me part numbers?

a lot of parts in these 20 some totes have part numbers.

I may have some extra parts books if you do not have these.

These cars really fascinate me and I wish to be able to get these parts

to the right people but I need help with this.

I am in a wheelchair most of the time and only can walk a short distance.

I am 82 years old and have this huge warehouse full of parts from 29 Studebaker

dealers that closed their shops in the late 60's

Any volunteers in Northern Illinois? 

rbk I am looking for several parts for a 1925 Standard Six.

Here are the part numbers according to the manuals I have:

124284 - Lighting Switch

110605 - Lighting Switch Gear

124220 - Carb Air Cleaner Complete

122436 - Gas Tank

124188 - Gasoline tank outlet pipe assembly

109356 - Lighting switch lever tube gear

122106 - Radiator filler cap (used with motometer)

123963 - Radiator filler cap and disc

Please let me know if you have any of these or any other parts that maybe for a 1925. I would like to keep it as close to original as possible. 

Thank You

Brad

[Stude Light]

On 4/28/2019 at 9:28 PM, studeboy said:

If you look in the Studebaker Parts book B for the Standard six on page 202-c there is a note that chains 120007 (Morse), 122205 (link belt) and chain 122050 (Duckworth) are replaced by chain 125718 (Whitney).

All these chains run on the same sprockets. The last chain part number 125718 was used on late standard sixes and continued through GE, GJ, GL, S1, 53. This would indicate that these chains are interchangeable. The parts book does not mention type 45 being stamped on the sprocket only on the front of the outside link of the morse chain.

If Robert has a new chain of any of these types it should work on the later EM sprockets.

 

My guess is the Type 45 was a new profile that came out in 1923 and runs quieter. This probably became the standard profile and there was no need to further mark the later parts.

 

Now the hard part...can you buy both the new profile and old profile chains based on the sprockets you are running? I've looked in the past - matching up the different parts and didn't really see a difference.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[studeboy]

Robert has a nos whitney chain (125718). If Glen can get the accessory shaft sprocket to match the chain and the other two sprockets are the later type he should be good to go.

[rbk]

On 4/30/2019 at 7:04 PM, bcw said:

rbk I am looking for several parts for a 1925 Standard Six.

Here are the part numbers according to the manuals I have:

124284 - Lighting Switch

110605 - Lighting Switch Gear

124220 - Carb Air Cleaner Complete

122436 - Gas Tank

124188 - Gasoline tank outlet pipe assembly

109356 - Lighting switch lever tube gear

122106 - Radiator filler cap (used with motometer)

123963 - Radiator filler cap and disc

Please let me know if you have any of these or any other parts that maybe for a 1925. I would like to keep it as close to original as possible. 

Thank You

Brad

Brad

I hope that you will have patience.

I am rather preoccupied with my wife's cancer treatment and possibly surgery.

I have been slowly inventorying the 20 bin that Scott gave me.

I had a car accident last october that messed up my right leg and I can not walk very well.

I even have to miss the South Bend meet this weekend.

Bob

[studeboy]

 

This page should help Bob identify the different chains he has. See note by timing chains.

[rbk]

I will try next week to find the accessory sprocket and pull the crank sprocket.

The N.O.S chain I have is 120007 and has Whitney stamped on it,

Bob

[GJP]

Thanks Bob,

 

The sprocket that I need the most is the 15 tooth "Type 45" accessory shaft sprocket (hopefully you can find one in the totes from Scott). If you find the Type 45 cam and crank sprockets even better. The NOS Whitney chain is also of interest to me although from Studeboys post, (scan of his parts manual) it should be 125718?  With Whitney stamped on the chain though the tag must be wrong.

 

Will look forward to hearing from you next week on the results of your search for the sprockets.

PS: on a side note during your search I am also looking for the fuse box cover (P/N 43956) should you come across one.

Glen

[studeboy]

Part 12007 was the part number for the morse chain. They are interchangeable.