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1928 Pierce Arrow at Bonham's auction

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

That's interesting because I [usually] have the opposite experience. I try to avoid cars under $20,000 unless the margins are really good. The problem is that they cost just as much for me to market, and the customers for "inexpensive" cars usually use up a disproportionate amount of my time. Like 10 times as much (no joke).

 

Inexpensive car buyers have 20 questions on the first phone call, most of which are answered in the description but he didn't bother reading it. He thinks this is some kind of scam because he found the car online, so he's very skeptical and would never, ever send anyone any money without seeing things in person. So I first have to convince him that I'm not a crook. Then he'll ask for a bunch of photos in addition to the 80-100 photos already posted online that I have to go take (which means pulling the car out of its spot). Then he'll call back and ask a bunch more questions that his buddy thought of that he should ask or about things he read on the internet. If it's a car newer than 1985 or so, he'll ask me to buy him a CarFAX ($30 a shot), which obviously we don't do as a matter of course because most of our cars are older than that. Then he'll hire an inspector (which is always OK) and that guy will use up a bunch of time even though he doesn't know what he's looking at. Then he'll get a report from the inspector and will call again to ask questions about the things the inspector found. Then he'll decide he needs to see it himself (which is always OK). He'll come see it, he'll want it on the lift, and he'll want a test drive, so we tear the shop apart for him and everybody stops what they're doing to help move cars around. After the test drive he'll look around the showroom while he thinks about it. Then he'll go out to lunch with his wife to ask permission. Then he'll come back and say that his wife won't let him buy it at my asking price, would I take sixty cents on the dollar, CASH MONEY? We haggle some more, he goes to talk it over with his wife again, and eventually we come to an agreement. Then we start to do the paperwork and he realizes that he has to pay for the thing and thinks he's going to drive it home after giving us a check, which obviously isn't happening. So we spend a bunch of time trying to talk him out of driving it home that moment and to let us set up shipping for him, but he's convinced himself that a long drive in an unfamiliar old car is the smartest, cheapest way to get it home. So now he needs to go to the bank. When he gets back from the bank, we sit around for a few hours entertaining this guy and his wife in our offices while the wire is processed. He also decides that he needs the title right then and there because he had a bad experience once and seeing my $5 million inventory doesn't do much to convince him that it's not all just an elaborate ruse to steal $12,000 from him. Once the wire hits, we have to get the car ready for a cross-country jaunt (which also means my mechanics have to drop everything else they're doing on other cars). While the guys are doing that, we drive 30 minutes and two towns over to the title office with him to do the title work on the spot instead of doing it online and mailing it to him a few days later. We also have to get him a temporary tag while we're there, so that's another line to wait in. When we get back to the shop, he'll wander over to the T-shirt rack and ask for a few free T-shirts ("You know, so I can advertise your business."). Eventually he drives away after a 6-hour ordeal and everyone is happy(ish). 

 

More expensive cars? They call, they ask a few questions to verify it's what I say it is, they ask me to arrange shipping, they ask me to send them an invoice for the whole shebang, then they pay for everything with a wire transfer the next day. A few days later we put the car in a truck and it leaves. A week later, the title has been processed digitally and we overnight it to the new owner.

 

/What was this thread about again?

 

 

 

Matt, how much of your experience reflects the difference between inexperienced buyers and experienced buyers?  Your example of an inexpensive car buyer sounds like someone who doesn't know what he is doing, perhaps because he hasn't done this before.  Your more expensive buyer sounds like someone who isn't in his first rodeo.   I know that when I was looking for my first classic car,  with about $10,000 to spend, I did or planned to do all sorts of exceedingly dumb things.  For example, I once went to pick up a 60-year-old car that I had never inspected and that had 30 year old tires that I was planning to drive 150 miles at highway speeds back home.  Fortunately I chickened out at the last minute and decided not to buy the car.  Chickening out at the last minute was no doubt an inexperienced buyer thing to do, but it's something I'm glad I did because  at least I lived to tell the tale.  With more experience, and often with more resources saved up over time, comes a less crazy buying process.   Or at least that's a possible explanation: Curious about your thoughts.

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)

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That's interesting because I [usually] have the opposite experience. I try to avoid cars under $20,000 unless the margins are really good. The problem is that they cost just as much for me to market, and the customers for "inexpensive" cars usually use up a disproportionate amount of my time. Like 10 times as much (no joke).

 

 

 

Same with real estate. Does a realtor want to do the the same work for 100k sale as a million sale?  The realtor does exactly the same work in both but makes 10x the commission on the higher sale..........

 

why some realtors only sell expensive homes. First time home buyers can be a nightmare.

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I am reading about the clientele I have to follow in the wake of. About the closest thing to haggling out of me is "Do you have any room on that price if I pay cash and you never see me or the car again." Most frequently my I decide not to buy a car, after a close look, simply because I don't want it, no matter what the price. I know the value of cars and how much money I have. I am not a game player or a dancer.

Only one car was purchased for less than the asking price in the last 8 years in my case. I knew they were fairly priced by a person who put a fair price on them, Why jerk the guy around for some hormone or testosterone satisfaction. Yet, I am lumped in with the buyer examples above. So sometimes I don't even stop to look.

 

I have never actually been a professional car salesman, but I have sold a lot of cars. Project cars for dreamers are my specialty. Probably higher than average price because I want the buyer to make a significant commitment to the project. Then it has a better chance of being saved. I don't want someone to think a lot and the more they spend, the more they think. No steak, lots of sizzle. A couple of times I have been shocked by a repeat buyer, even had a call asking if I had anything for sale from one. It is kind of a sport to me. I would never think of selling a driver car to a person who depended on it to get to work and make a living. These kinds of personal philosophies seem to come at pivotal moments. I remember one evening at dusk when a '39 Caddy Model 75 was leaving my driveway. The front sheetmetal was inside the car. It had no engine or transmission and the front suspension had been removed. The bare front cross member was chained to a truck trailer hitch and four guys were guiding it at a walking pace. Since the car had been delivered on a flatbed I had no idea one of the remaining two wheels on the rear was creeping outward on a loose axle. They were kicking the wheel and axle back into the housing as I watched it roll out of sight. That's when I thought "Yep. I never played baseball or football. This is my sport." Next day I had to start marketing the trade in.

Bernie

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Posted (edited)

Look, I don't want to totally derail this thread (too late?) but I would like to clear a few things up. This is going to be long, but maybe it'll help shed some light on something everyone seems curious about: how I make a living and how this car dealer thing really works.

 

I don't sit at my desk all day waiting for rich idiots to throw money in my lap. I don't sit here and laugh at guys who can't afford high-end cars while lighting my cigars with $100 bills. I work hard for my money and I deserve to make a living for it. My average work week is about 65 hours--is yours? My daily driver is a 9-year-old car I bought used. Until this year, I worked TWO jobs so I could keep this thing floating. My employees always get paid, and I pay them better than the industry standard (Dr. Francini makes more than I do). If there's a problem, I'm reaching into my OWN pocket to solve it. And every penny you feel entitled to shave off the purchase price of a car is a penny you're taking from me and my family--and I let you do it with a smile on my face! Think about that when you want to lay down some elitist nonsense on me.

 

If you look at my inventory, you'll see a variety of stuff at all price levels and make no mistake, I cultivate that inventory; I don't just grab every piece of junk that floats by. I turn away probably 40% of the cars that are offered, expensive and cheap alike. Melanie and I embrace the hobby and think of ourselves as matchmakers rather than car dealers, and we want every single person who walks in (personally or virtually) to have a positive experience with a good car. That really is my only goal. If that sounds like BS it is because you, like most buyers, assume I'm a liar and a thief by definition because I'm a used car dealer. That's fine--you're wrong--but I at least understand.

 

I don't hate guys who buy low-cost cars, but they are a lot more work. That's just a fact. None of this is a money thing. I'm not looking down my nose at people who can only afford $20,000 cars. In fact, I can often make good money on low-cost cars; I can buy nice, low-mileage '70s Lincoln Town Cars for $6-8000 and sell them for $12-14,000 all day long yet I just sold a $50,000 car for a $1000 profit. It's not really about the money.

 

No, the core driving force of my business is avoiding hassles. For ME. I don't like headaches. I don't like angry phone calls. I don't like dealing with threats or lawyers. I don't like guys who are unhappy with their old cars because I know how that heartbreak feels. I want none of that in my life and I like being able to look myself in the mirror and know that I'm not hurting people. It's purely selfish, but it just so happens that this desire to avoid hassles aligns perfectly with what the buyers need and want--a car that doesn't give them headaches. Harwood Motors has processed more than 600 cars since we opened in 2014, and if you scour the internet, you will find zero complaints. ZERO. I've certainly had a few, but they are few and far between and I handle them in a way that reduces my hassles as well--usually by throwing money at them. So the first thing you need to know about me and my business is that I am headache averse, which fortunately means I will work my ass off to avoid giving you one, too.

 

8 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Matt, how much of your experience reflects the difference between inexperienced buyers and experienced buyers? Curious about your thoughts.

 

I have had more than 600 cars pass through my hands since Harwood Motors started (plus all the cars I sold at my previous dealership where I was a partner) and I bet fewer than 5% of those buyers were guys younger than I am (I'm 49). Most buyers aren't young guys who are rookies, these are guys in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who at least have enough life experience to know how things work. And they walk in here expecting that I'm going to rip them off, as if I have some Jedi mind trick I'm going to use on them. Here's a little secret--there are no dealer tricks. None. Zero. Nada. I don't have any special gimmicks to separate you from your money or make you buy a car. My only advantage is that I have already seen all of YOUR tricks (as a buyer). So whatever cleverness you think you have, I've already seen it. The best experience comes from both sides being honest and sincere.

 

My only other advantage is that I don't need any one particular buyer. Someone else will come along, I have 110 other cars, one of those will sell instead. I don't have an end-of-month quota to meet to win a trip to Acapulco or a pizza party. If you piss me off, I'm going to tell you to get lost. Period. Some guys' money just isn't green enough. I don't do it often, my threshold is pretty high, but if you're a jackass, you're gonna get tossed without a car. Too bad. (Again, this is just me avoiding headaches).

 

I do understand that guys who buy low-priced cars are probably investing a greater share of their net worth in it than a high-dollar guy. I get that and respect it. It's a big deal to scrape together every penny you have and buy an old car with it--I wiped out my savings to buy that 1935 Lincoln (I bought that car, not the dealership which are technically two different things). Anyone who buys a car worth more than about $75,000 is doing it with money he has laying around, not his kid's college fund. I understand that low dollar cars represent a bigger chunk of the whole to their buyers. It's why I continue to deal with them, because there's no reason for them to sit out of the game.


HOWEVER, those are the same guys who expect to be taken and treat me like a crook before even one word has been uttered. Fine, that's what life has shown them, it's not really their fault. But is it my fault for finding it frustrating? Is it my fault for preferring to sell a different car to a guy who isn't like that? If two cars have the same $5000 margin, and one costs $18,000 and one costs $60,000, it's going to be quicker and easier to sell the $60,000 car and the cost of marketing it is the same. Which would you choose?

 

Which brings me to another point--quality. The cheaper a car gets, the more the buyers seem to expect from them and the more they expect from me. They nit-pick inexpensive cars far more than others. Every flaw is a lever to move the price (or so they believe). I think David Coco mentioned a buyer who came to see his car and made a list of flaws and assigned a dollar value to each one, deducted it from his asking price, and that was their offer. That's a real thing that happens, although it's not a real thing that works. It's insulting and embarrassing for everyone involved. Don't come into my shop, waste hours of my time, nit-pick a car, and offer me $8000 on a $22,000 asking price, then act like I'm a fool for not taking it. It's really embarrassing.

 

I also understand budgets and I often throw in things that I wouldn't for high-dollar buyers. If you pay full asking price, I'll usually include shipping in the lower 48, which can amount to several thousand dollars in some cases. If you're really a hard-luck case but you're nice and love the car, I'll certainly take less and maybe I'll eat the courier and title fees. I want people to have the cars they want, and that's the honest truth. But I can't operate as a charity, either.

 

Then there's the process, which I mentioned earlier. The right way to do it is to trust me and Melanie to be professionals and to know what we're doing. We are what they call "experts." That means taking our advice about not driving an ancient car home 1200 miles in the winter and not telling Melanie how to fill out a title or explaining to her how banking really works. I don't tell people they should ship their cars home because I make money on the shipping (I don't), I tell them to ship them because I know old cars are inherently unreliable. I only sell good cars, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that they're all ready for a cross-country drive without incident. I have no way to predict that in 300 miles, a front wheel bearing will fail or that the generator will fry itself tomorrow morning. But people expect me to know such things and to somehow be a guarantee against it. Low-cost car buyers seem to look at shipping as a scam, or at least another bite out of their budget, and they resent it. They only see that it will cost $1000 to ship a car home, money they don't want to spend. So they talk themselves into the fact that they'll just drive it home for free, like that old guy and the 1940 Ford (which was a real thing, I assure you). Nobody factors in hotels, food, gas, and they definitely don't think about the car breaking down in the middle of nowhere. My advice on every single car we sell, regardless of price or quality, is to ship it home and get to know it on your home turf rather than on a highway in the middle of the Badlands of South Dakota. It isn't me scamming you, it's me looking out for your best interests because I've been doing this for decades and I know that old cars can be unpredictable. Jesus, you have no idea how it keeps me awake at night when a guy is driving his car home and I haven't heard from him. Again, it's mostly me trying to avoid headaches which include a stranded customer demanding that I solve his problem from 400 miles away. I'm not the sort to tell that guy, "Tough luck," even though that's probably the industry standard response. I always feel obligated to render aid, even if the guy shot himself in the foot. That means reaching into my own pocket. Again.

 

And then there's the simple procedure of buying the car. Low-cost guys want to pay with a check and leave with the car. That doesn't happen, sorry. Even a certified check isn't going to fly (I have a pile of fake ones on my desk for just this occasion). They often get angry when I won't accept a check and let them leave with a car. They are confused and bewildered by the wiring process and think that it involves me reaching into their bank account and stealing their money. Again, they're expecting me to be crooked. When we talk them down and explain how it works, they're usually OK, but they sure don't want to do it that way and they explore every other option they can first.

 

Many of them are also suspicious of the fact that I can't just hand them a title and let them leave. That's what you do when you buy it from a guy in his driveway I guess, but as a licensed Ohio auto dealer, I can't do it that way--it's against the law. "Can't you just sign it and give it to me blank?" is the general request, and yes, I understand that's how it works when you're buying from an individual. I can't do it and I'm not going to risk my dealership so you can go home and either leave it in my name forever or lie about the purchase price to dodge your taxes. I have to process the title and put it in your name, and yes, that involves a power-of-attorney form that includes your SSN. I can't do it any other way. If you want the car, that's the way it has to be done. Nobody freaks out at the new car dealership when they need to do all this stuff. You don't ask the Chevy dealer to just give you the blank title and you'll fill it out later. No, only old car guys expect that when they're buying an old car. It's all about trust; low-cost guys have a hard time finding it.

 

I suppose I don't have to do it this way. I have bought a lot of cars from other dealers, including several notable high-end places that specialize in truly expensive cars. I seem to be unique in the fact that I want the cars to be right and that I make sure the paperwork is correct. Every single car I've ever bought from another dealer has shown up with issues. EVERY SINGLE ONE. My guys know that our goal is for the new owner of one of our cars to be able to get in with his or her spouse the moment it comes off the trailer and drive that car out to dinner. The car has to be ready to go. Nobody else in the industry seems to do that. Nobody. It's why I have a full-time mechanic and a full-time detailer on staff, it's why we spend about an hour going through each car when it arrives and another hour before it leaves, just checking stuff to make sure it works. I probably spend $6,000 a year just on new batteries when most shops seem to jump start the cars to get them in the trailer and let the customer worry about it when it arrives. Cars I've received from other dealers are never road ready, no matter how much I've paid. It's painfully obvious that most don't service their cars and many don't even drive them and have no idea of how they run. Many, including the unnamed large prestigious dealership, flat-out lied and said this particular car was in great shape and ready to drive and when I got it, there was no coolant in the radiator because the bottom tank had rotted out and the fuel system was full of gunk. That car hadn't run in years.

 

None of these other dealerships do their title work, either. You may think it's a hassle to give me power-of-attorney and wait a week for your title, and--gasp--pay your taxes, but I have gotten titles from other dealers that were last signed in 1978 by a dead guy and everyone else has just passed it along without ever doing anything with it. They just pass along whatever paper the previous owner gave them without even looking at it. Mis-matched VINs, previous owners' names on the purchaser line who never transferred title, screwed-up mileage reports, and other hassles. Some people don't care, but a lot of people do actually want to OWN the cars they buy rather than just limping along on some old paper that's as good as worthless. When you buy a car from Harwood Motors, you WILL get a good title in your name, ready to register in all 50 states and with no hassles when you go to sell the car. What's that worth to you? If you say "Nothing," then you haven't bought a car with bad paperwork. But I'd say that 80% of inexpensive car buyers--who, I'll admit are probably on a budget--want me to just sign the title and give it to them. You guys remember how they finally caught Al Capone? Tax evasion. Sorry, I'm not helping you with that, no way, no how.

 

I could do it that way. Feign ignorance on the cars, ship them out the way they arrived--running or not--and let the buyer worry about the paperwork. Apparently most of the industry does it that way without any consequences (are there any consequences for any shady shiat anymore?). I could ignore complaints and tell irate buyers tough luck, buyer beware, as-is where-is, and all that. But instead Melanie and I spend a lot of extra time and money that we apparently don't have to spend making sure people have a good experience and no hassles. Again, my wish to avoid headaches for me only works in the buyer's favor, mostly because I don't want to hear any of his complaints. This is EXACTLY why that guy with the silver GTO pissed me off so badly. That was purely an attempt to grab some money--I told him to put the car on a trailer and send it back and I'll give him his money back. He STFU immediately.

 

And yeah, I hate to say it, but there are more stupid people who can afford low-cost cars than high-dollar cars. A recent exchange on an $18,000 car I sold recently:

 

Me: You'll get a fresh Ohio title in your name in about a week.

Him: I need a Texas title. I live in Texas.

Me: Correct. But we can only issue Ohio titles. You can transfer it at the Texas DMV.

Him: But I don't live in Ohio. Never have.
Me: I know. But you can take that to the Texas DMV and they'll transfer it into your name and give you a Texas title.

Him: They won't give me Texas plates with an Ohio title. I'll have to get Ohio plates somehow.

Me: The Ohio title will have your Texas address on it. This isn't a problem. It's as if you moved there. They do it all the time.

Him: How are you putting a Texas address on an Ohio title? That doesn't make any sense!

Me: Sigh.

 

Just this part of the process took nearly an hour to explain in addition to the other hours I spent with him. See why I get exasperated?

 

This post is way longer than I wanted it to be. I deeply resent people who suggest that I look down on people who can't afford high-end cars or that people on a budget don't deserve to have an old car. You can roll that whiny poor-me attitude up real tight and cram it. What I get frustrated with is being treated as a crook, being told how to do my job, and people constantly trying to reach into my pocket, particularly when I work hard to make sure they have a good experience. Old cars are crap. All of them. You WILL have a problem sooner or later, no matter what you buy, I can guarantee that much. Cheap cars are typically worse than expensive cars, but not necessarily. That isn't my fault. But starting off the relationship with your car on a sour note because you think you have figured out a way to beat the system or you think I'm trying to cheat you or you resent anyone making a living from YOUR hobby will pretty much ensure that you'll never be happy with the car. That kind of bad juju tends to stick around.

 

Be sincere, be honest, and treat me with respect, and you'll find that you get the same. It really is that easy.

 

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Matt, you're excellent with writing.

What you wrote gives us all a sympathetic glimpse

into the work of an antique-car dealer.

Your writing above should become a feature

in some good AACA newsletter or other car publication.

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Matt, I really appreciate your insight to the dealer end of working with old cars and their potential buyers!  I’ve sold a few cars and motorcycles privately over the years which has more than once encouraged me to trade in rather than deal with the general public

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Posted (edited)

I have only told a few people no when they want to buy a car (and usually the key reason is the car is something generic and I think a better one can be found or they are too naive to handle the car's issues).

 

 If you think it was a decent car prior to restoration, then I would say pick a price (add a little to it as it is an auction) and try to obtain.  That being said, you should have a realistic "pool of money" to deal with potential engine issues (you may have them or you may not - just depends, but slim chance you will be able to change the fluids, clean the carb, vacuum tank and gas tank, install a battery,  and then hit the road).  You also need another "pool of money" to address any cosmetic issues you want to address (and I cannot tell you the number of people I know that have lost financially as their car has needed mechanical work and then used their pool of  money and have nothing left to address cosmetics  -  and guess what the car sells for not too much more than what they paid for it to begin with).   

 

My gut opinion is that it is a pretty decent car, I am guessing a 1970's restoration on a car that given red spark plug wires perhaps made it out on tours in the 1960's, I would set aside 30K (40K on safe side - just depends on if you want to go touring or want less use out of the car) slush fund for mechanics, and I would probably end up living with the cosmetics unless I get lucky on mechanics  (my guess is very very minimum it will need a gas tank rebuild/extensive restoration, vacuum tank cleaning, carb cleaning, water pump rebuild, cleaned out water jacket, possibly "un-sticking" of engine, some ignition and/or wiring, battery,  fluids,  tires, and with a drum roll please - a really pricey radiator re-core).  And I would have to play around with Photoshop regarding tire choice  (paint and interior choices are going to haunt it via 1970's dating).

 

As to the comment of Bohnams not being in traditional form - Whether Bonhams sees it or not, they have a nice niche with these type of condition cars and it strikes me they are doing a good job at this in face of timing and ...

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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By the way, do not fool yourself given estimate - sure there are flukes, though decent condition open CCCA cars of late 20's to mid 30's rarely sell for 25K (low estimate) when piles of parts often sell for 25K alone.

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Matt, you may be one of the few completely honest dealers out there and I hop your business grows because of your honesty, not despite it.

 

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Posted (edited)

Matt, this is a great answer -- thanks for it.   You're an excellent writer, by the way: Have you ever thought about having a column in Hemmings, or some similar publication, about the classic car hobby and the market in buying and selling cars?  I would think you can write a column very quickly and it would reach a broader audience than the AACA Forum.  I write for a living, so I don't give out that kind of praise easily.  But you would be an excellent magazine columnist in one of the hobby's prominent magazines.

 

UPDATE: I now see that John_S_in_Penna had the same idea. Consider his idea seconded!

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)

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 Mr Matt, don't take it personal because it sounds like you do. This is all part of this business, you know that and I know that. Don't dig too deep or it will pray on your mind like a caged wild animal. I should know. Imagine my frustration, some of you already know, I have to dispose of 1000+ cars that have been buried in deep storage for 70 years, walled in, full grown trees blocking their exit and so called "possible buyers" who are, for the most part older guys who just want to come in and look around, (which is not going to happen as they could fall down or trip over stuff) expecting me to bust my ass doing all the impossible work (and I'm even younger than you) getting the cars out and then offering 10 cents on the dollar? Selling cars is a hard business. Sometimes, I walk into my building, look at the job in hand and walk right back out, dizzy and with a headache because I don't want to deal with the job. I think it would be easier to be a Rocket Scientist or just about anything else. Not enough serious buyers anymore, for restored cars or projects, at least not in the good old USA. It's not like it used to be. Money or not, this job stinks. 

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I cant say what I am thinking right now.

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If I started a used car lot I always thought "Generally Honest Bernie's Used Cars"  would be the most appropriate name.

 

Blame it on my High School Business class teacher, Tom Burns, I was paying attention the day he talked about discretionary purchases. The intangible products lesson was another memorable day.

 

I'd question the comment on the lack of serious buyers, seems like they are all too serious. Seriousness brings on expectations. A lot of expectations never get met. Then they get all sour and more serious.

 

There were times I bought cars sitting in a bar, sight unseen. I don't have any bad memories of the purchases. It's coming home a 3 AM with six Muscovy ducks that you don't do a second time!

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