CVT TRANS

[broker-len]

I have two old cars and a 73 Honda Motorcycle--------------daily driver is 2008 Rav 4    not great quality     wife drives a 2009 Camry with a 6 cylinder    110000 miles------------------JUST A GREAT CAR          BUT      SHE WANTS A NEW CAR    !!!!!!    looking at Subaru cross trek     only comes in CVT    trans    have tried to educate my self        take a look at these videos             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwRUfFEc5k                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSDw-uyP98                           like to here from members with experience with this technology     and who has the best trans

[TerryB]

Wife drives Subaru 2018 Forrester w CVT, I drove a 2008 Dodge Caliber w/CVT, son drives it now.  I liked the CVT in the Caliber, it was strange not to feel the shift points.  Subaru has a lot of faith in their version, I think it’s a 100k warranty on it.   Some early CVT had issues but I think over time they have been addressed.

[Guest]

A local transmission repair shop that I always took company vehicles to for 35 years says they have no hands on opinion about CVT transmissions, they have never had one in their shop.

A modern version of Variomatic introduced by DAF in 1958 on their DAF 600.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[broker-len]

Terry     the Subaru offers 60000 mile warranty power train         can buy for   100000 miles    look at this video   he mentions  JATCO  TRANSMISSIONS          used in subaru                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZ5-ifYQho

[zepher]

Early CVT transmissions were junk.

Numerous failures and seriously lackluster performance.

 

Newer ones seem to be more reliable but I am still not a fan.

I have driven the Nissan and Subaru versions and the Nissan was miserable to drive.

Even with foot to the floor the trans never 'downshifted' to raise RPM to get into the power band when power was needed going up a freeway onramp.

The RPM just gradually increased as I almost got run over by a big rig.

The Subaru had a much better driving feel but it was still not as responsive as a traditional transmission.

 

I wouldn't own one since I like to keep my cars for at least a decade and I am still not sold on CVT reliability.

I'm sure I would get used to the strange driving dynamics but give me a traditional transmission any day.

[bryankazmer]

the RPM is supposed to just gradually change, that's how it works.  The concept is like a Reeves drive, reducing engine rpm variation.  Some versions (Nissan?) have fake shift point feel programmed in, which I found really odd.  CVT makes some sense with a naturally aspirated engine where the rpm can be kept nearer tom high efficiency, but I don't think they make sense with a turbo where you basically want two operating regions.

 

I think DSG is better technology, and much as it pains me to say it perhaps better than conventional manual, but it is offered on only a few cars.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

4 hours ago, TerryB said:

Wife drives Subaru 2018 Forrester w CVT, I drove a 2008 Dodge Caliber w/CVT, son drives it now.  I liked the CVT in the Caliber, it was strange not to feel the shift points.  Subaru has a lot of faith in their version, I think it’s a 100k warranty on it.   Some early CVT had issues but I think over time they have been addressed.

Subaru was getting such bad press because of their failed CVT rates that the dealers finally threw such a fit that the factory absolutely had to extend their warranty to 100K. My in-laws own two late model Subarus with CVT transmissions. His is brand new and he hates the lag when you press on the gas peddle. I knew when he said that I would never own one. Over the decades I've owned (bought and sold) plenty of cars with that momentary hesitation, usually vacuum advance or throttle pump issues, and sometimes carburetor heat riser tubes, that I wasted no time correcting the problems because that hesitation always bothered me. His wife only drives a few blocks to work and doesn't know the difference. As far as shift points go, that's really another issue. It's been too many years since drove a Buick with a Dynaflow transmission, or a Chevy with a Turboglide transmission, but I don't recall any negative feelings about the lack of shift points. As you read about CVTs further you will come to understand that they are not repairable. When they go, they simply tear themselves apart and leave nothing to fix or rebuild. At $4,000 to $6,000 each for new ones, I simply passed on buying a Outback, even though my wife had her heart set on one. I wasn't going to buy a new Subaru, or anything brand new at all, just something late model enough to please my wife. We drove a lot of cars including a couple of newer Honda CRVs, whose CVTs were similar. We ended up buying a 2015 Toyota Highlander with the six speed automatic which we love. I wish I knew how much better gas economy the CVTs delivered, but if it's a matter of the consumer getting a crappy deal just so manufacturers can meet mpg goals, I'll be really mad.

[hidden_hunter]

Not a fan, we've had it on some of our work cars and I'd take a well sorted automatic over it any day for my daily

[broker-len]

thank you     everyone for the opinion          the dealer we went to only offered 60000 miles     can buy 100000     

[TerryB]

25 minutes ago, broker-len said:

thank you     everyone for the opinion          the dealer we went to only offered 60000 miles     can buy 100000     

We got a letter from Subaru about 2 months ago stating our 2018 has 100k warranty on the CVT.  Your dealer must not be aware of this change.

[broker-len]

I am being told that different models change the warranty limits

[Guest]

I am helping a friend look for a late-model compact car, and found that CVTs are now used in larger cars and some SUVs, they're not exclusively found in the smaller cars anymore.  Before you settle on a car, check these two items first: 1) Does it have a CVT? and 2) What is the repair history of the CVT in that year and model?  Make- and model-specific internet forums exist for nearly everything out there, so do an internet search and see what the posters are saying.  If there's a sticky and/or separate category for the CVT on a given model, I'd be concerned.

 

My trusted transmission shop owner (been in business for nearly 40 years) also advised staying away from CVTs in Nissans and Subarus for the reasons others have noted above.  And then there's the cost, I was told that some of the Subaru CVTs can run several thousand dollars to fix.  The CVTs are pretty much black boxes.  For the most part, there are no internal replacement parts available through either the dealer or aftermarket.  When they fail, you replace the whole transmission, whose only source is the dealer, or perhaps a used one from a wrecking yard, if available.  Subaru's extended warranty is fine, but check on whether it is transferable to new owners (you) should you buy a used car.

 

We were drawn to the Nissans and Subarus as used cars because there are a lot of lower mileage used ones on the market at lower-than-expected prices.  Now we know why.

[TerryB]

I see the 2019 Forester quotes the 60,000 mile power train warranty as standard.  Our 2018 has 10k miles and no issues.  The only oddball issue so far is the key.  We have the standard old fashion key in the lock to start, no remote start or push button start.  The key can get hung up in the lock. It’s so common an issue it’s called out in the owners manual.  You have to wiggle the steering wheel to get the key to move.  This does not happen often for us but it did happen during the first week of ownership.  Seems like it should not happen but the service manager had a long reply on how it can happen and not to panic.  Their suggestion was if we want to avoid this issue we should get a push button start model.  That would be our #1 complaint at this time. 

[Pfeil]

I have been driving cars with CVT for just a little over 20 years. Those first 4 years were all pre production vehicles. From day one to present "yes" there is a pronounced PERCEIVED shift in the transmission when first taking off when in light/moderate  throttle. That is a feature built into the transaxle to get you into a higher ratio for emission purposes. The trans is robust / reliable and it enables cars to have a seamless ratio change. On my current 2012 it allows me to cruise at 70 mph at 2100 rpm and achieve 40 mpg and at 2600 rpm at 100mph at 36mpg.

 Downshifting to a lower ratio is instantaneous and unlike a conventional automatic at wide open throttle ( even a 10 speed A/T ) the engine will put you right at the intersection where horsepower and torque converge which is right where you want to be and it STAYS there  unlike a conventional automatic where it downshifts and runs up to that sweet spot goes over and has to shift again dropping you below the HP and torque peak. In other words a car with a CVT's engine at wide open throttle is always at the most efficient spot of HP and torque. Efficiency at cruise or normal acceleration also always puts the engine rpm exactly where it's needed. The reason you have these 7 or 10 speed automatic cars today is because of CVT, but they cannot ever always be in the engine's sweet spot! - close, but no cigar. 

 

     

[broker-len]

thanks all                   does any one have a 2019   cross track ????

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, broker-len said:

thanks all                   does any one have a 2019   cross track ????

Crosstrek, they are on the sporty side of comfort range.  My wife whose in her early 60s found the Forester was better for seating and visibility.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

6 hours ago, Pfeil said:

I have been driving cars with CVT for just a little over 20 years. Those first 4 years were all pre production vehicles. From day one to present "yes" there is a pronounced PERCEIVED shift in the transmission when first taking off when in light/moderate  throttle. That is a feature built into the transaxle to get you into a higher ratio for emission purposes. The trans is robust / reliable and it enables cars to have a seamless ratio change. On my current 2012 it allows me to cruise at 70 mph at 2100 rpm and achieve 40 mpg and at 2600 rpm at 100mph at 36mpg.

 Downshifting to a lower ratio is instantaneous and unlike a conventional automatic at wide open throttle ( even a 10 speed A/T ) the engine will put you right at the intersection where horsepower and torque converge which is right where you want to be and it STAYS there  unlike a conventional automatic where it downshifts and runs up to that sweet spot goes over and has to shift again dropping you below the HP and torque peak. In other words a car with a CVT's engine at wide open throttle is always at the most efficient spot of HP and torque. Efficiency at cruise or normal acceleration also always puts the engine rpm exactly where it's needed. The reason you have these 7 or 10 speed automatic cars today is because of CVT, but they cannot ever always be in the engine's sweet spot! - close, but no cigar. 

 

     

To the extent that all you say is true, I still get the feeling that all of this "peak performance" business favors the manufacturer's mpg ratings, while the customer has to deal with sluggish  performance and quality issues and punishingly high replacement cost. I, for one, just don't need to squeeze every last few yards out of a gallon of gas. I'm not a cynical man, but if I were I might think that we, the consumer, are being punished for our governments ever stricter fuel mileage requirements.

[Pfeil]

4 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

To the extent that all you say is true, I still get the feeling that all of this "peak performance" business favors the manufacturer's mpg ratings, while the customer has to deal with sluggish  performance and quality issues and punishingly high replacement cost. I, for one, just don't need to squeeze every last few yards out of a gallon of gas. I'm not a cynical man, but if I were I might think that we, the consumer, are being punished for our governments ever stricter fuel mileage requirements.

CVT is a win - win for performance and economy. Think about this; 2100 rpm at 70 mph at 40 mpg. That's performance and economy. Now if I punch the throttle at 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 100 etc..  mph my CVT goes into reduction and it acts like this; the engine at full throttle by way of the transmission ( remember the ECM is not only connected to the engine, but also the transaxle ) revs to where it makes the most peak HP and Torque and stays there ( in my car that would be 6,200 RPM ) and as road speed advances the trans is constantly changing the ratio to keep that 6200 RPM peak HP and torque. There is no other transmission in the world M/T or A/T that can maintain a sweet spot like a CVT and that's performance.

 Remember the advantage of a close ratio transmission in drag racing? We used a close ratio trans to stay as close to peak HP and torque as possible, a CVT beats this hands down.

[bryankazmer]

I agree about the CVT maintaining efficient operation, and this is a good discussion on the technology.  But the OP is asking about application in a transportation appliance type vehicle - check the vehicles being compared.  ( Crosstrek is too sporty - not a word I would ever use to describe a Crosstrek).  I don't think the transmission selection is critical here. Consider what else about the candidate vehicles you like/dislike .

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, bryankazmer said:

I agree about the CVT maintaining efficient operation, and this is a good discussion on the technology.  But the OP is asking about application in a transportation appliance type vehicle - check the vehicles being compared.  ( Crosstrek is too sporty - not a word I would ever use to describe a Crosstrek).  I don't think the transmission selection is critical here. Consider what else about the candidate vehicles you like/dislike .

Of course all cars to me are considered special because I worked in the automotive industry all my life and I love cars, however and with that kind of attachment that I have for cars many non car people would consider the car that I have that I am talking about to be a appliance and or a transportation car. 

[hidden_hunter]

We should go back to steam, no need for any transmission

[Hudsy Wudsy]

7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

CVT is a win - win for performance and economy. Think about this; 2100 rpm at 70 mph at 40 mpg. That's performance and economy. Now if I punch the throttle at 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 100 etc..  mph my CVT goes into reduction and it acts like this; the engine at full throttle by way of the transmission ( remember the ECM is not only connected to the engine, but also the transaxle ) revs to where it makes the most peak HP and Torque and stays there ( in my car that would be 6,200 RPM ) and as road speed advances the trans is constantly changing the ratio to keep that 6200 RPM peak HP and torque. There is no other transmission in the world M/T or A/T that can maintain a sweet spot like a CVT and that's performance.

 Remember the advantage of a close ratio transmission in drag racing? We used a close ratio trans to stay as close to peak HP and torque as possible, a CVT beats this hands down.

Pfeil, I'll defer to your considerable experience and try to keep an open mind about the CVT transmissions.

[broker-len]

All you posts have really help me understand from another view----------------------------On one of Leno's videos        he showed a very early open car with a large lever moving a large friction wheel     riding on a shaft with of varying diameters       to get different speeds       really an old technology

[mercer09]

Nothing wrong with the new cvts- and yes, they get amazing gas mileage. you may get 40 mpg on the highway. Subarus are a bit sluggish off the line, so dont expect much on 0-60.............

also, the crosstrek is a spiffed up Impreza. Only has the 2.o motor and not the 2.5, which the forrester and outback have. You will pay as much for the crosstrek as the other two, because of its higher stance then the impreza.

It is a car that subaru has platformed to bring the college kids in. They even offer it in orange, as most subarus are in very bland color choices and quite limited.

 

they are great cars for the money. Nobody else offers an AWD for that kind of money and Porsche even stole the AWD platform for their 911's years ago.

In Syracuse- Subarus are EVERYWHERE. Almost never see a Jeep.......................

 

good luck with your purchase!

[Fleek]

I have a Jeep Patriot with CVT, and after all the talk is said and done, it boils down to preference and individual needs. It takes some getting used to the feel of the CVT at first but it seems to do the job well. We do not drive hard or fast where we need quick performance, so we are happy with it. I can see where people with different needs may not like it as well.  They have been around several years with many thousands in use. If it was a truly bad idea people would have stopped buying them. They are not for everyone, but I feel they have their place.

[TerryB]

Here in my section of eastern PA the Forester is everywhere.  The Crosstrek is aimed at a younger audience and the seating and view from the driver’s seat reflects that.  Foresters and Outbacks are the most common models I see.  

[broker-len]

thank you all                       I guess  don't have a reason to give my wife for waiting another years before we buy her  a     'NEW CAR '

[DLynskey]

Being a car enthusiast I have never had a "perfect" car, one where I liked everything about it. I doubt anyone makes the perfect car for me and, if they did I couldn't afford it. That said, our one car is a 2017 Subaru Forester, the "Touring" model with all the driving assists -- front collision avoidance, backup and cross traffic warning, speed adaptive cruise control, etc., etc. At my age I really appreciate those features and will have them on whatever I might own in the future. I like the large windows with clear visibility and all wheel drive although I really don't need it in coastal SC.

 

My biggest complaint is the CVT. As has been pointed out, the CVT in theory offers a continuous range of drive ratios. In practice however, Subaru and other makers decided that drivers are accustomed to feeling gears shifting so they program the transmission to provide synthetic shift points that make it feel like it's shifting gears. Unfortunately the Subaru computer program is not well done. Under hard acceleration as with merging into fast traffic the poor little engine works itself to death while the transmission surges back and forth trying to find an optimal ratio. Cruising with slight throttle at lower speeds also leads to annoying surging as the transmission hunts for the correct setting. Most people don't seem to notice it, but it is annoying to me and even my wife, a non-car person complains about it.  I brought it up to the service manager and, without even taking a ride to appease me, said basically "Oh, I get at least one of those complaints a week, There's nothing I can do except take down your name in case Subaru comes up with something. You just have to learn how to drive it."  LEARN HOW TO DRIVE IT? I think not. I've been driving for 60 years, everything from 1920's non-synchromesh to an occasional big truck. Doesn't do much to build confidence in their service department.

 

I like my Forester otherwise so will continue to drive it. My daughter has had several Subarus and loves her 2015 Crosstrek which has a lot of miles on it. She says hers doesn't have that behavior. Several of my friends have various Subarus with the CVT and none of them seem to have noticed the "surging".

 

Bottom line. I don't know if the Crosstrek uses the same program but drive one for a day or two if possible and see how you like it. 

 

Don

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

It appears to be a very sophisticated system. The mechanical engineering effort that went into the design is huge. And you need to integrate that with software and electronic control. How do you make pulleys that change their diameter smoothly and seamlessly? Or do they change their diameters in small increments; so small that it seems continuously variable? I sympathize with the service manager. I suppose he means use of the throttle can be learned to minimize the "hunting." That's the way it was with 3 speed automatics; don't stomp the accelerator so hard that it needs to "kick down."

Aside from any other automatic's torque converter and valve body the CVT is very simple. The one thing you must remember is these pulleys are CONE pulley's and a single belt. the belt size is fixed and it travels between these two cone pulley's changing the ratio. Cones move in or out depending on oil pump pressure.

 How a CVT works! (Animation) - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHWqlfDZnmQ

Edited April 7, 2019 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[intimeold]

I can speak to this post; as we have had 2 Subaru's, with their CVT.  Wife has had 8 new model Subaru's, from the WRX to the Forester. 

 

The first Subaru for us was a 1998, 2.5 RS, the one patterned from the Rally cars; and the first CVT for us was a 2014 Subaru Forester..  I was skeptical, at first; but within minuets of driving that car; I was amazed.  Quicker pickup from a stop (Yes, I said quicker), and the smoothness is unbelievable.  And actually better fuel mileage; than her previous 2010 Forester with conventional automatic transmission. No issues of any kind. 

 

We lave a long driveway,  out in the country, and Snow country.  I never have to plow to get the Subaru out in the winter.  I do put dedicated Winter tires on; because of the amount of snow we do get.  but really those tires look a lot like All-Season tires anyway.      

 

Jump ahead to 2018. She bought a Subaru Crosstrek, loaded up with a lot of goodies and Subaru's Eyesight; and it has the CVT. Smaller engine than the Forester; but lighter car.  This car is equally amazing, coming from a 4 year old car, the 2014.  It is quicker than the 2014; though not a high performance car. The CVT is awesome.  We live in a mountainous area, Allegheny Mountains of PA; hardly any  flat land driving and she gets 34 mpg in the Winter. The Crosstrek  is a smaller car, but very capable for camping or hauling sports equipment, etc.

 

My advice to you is go to any dealer and take a long test ride in whatever Subaru model, that fits your lifestyle.  And again, never had any mechanical problems, with any of those cars.

 

intimeold   

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by intimeold (see edit history)

[padgett]

Problem with CVTs is max toque capability. Being essentially a friction device at some point you overpower the friction.

Second issue is that modern cars have a very wide torque band, 90% of max over a 4000-5000 rpm range. Given that the ability of a CVT to hold a specific engine rpm becomes somewhat irrelevant. Of course given that I do not understand 7 to 10 gear trannies either. My Jeep tow car has a five speed and turns 1900 in lockup at 70. It gets better gas mileage than my modern GM car with the same size engine, much better cdA,  800 lbs lighter, and more gears.

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Problem with CVTs is max toque capability. Being essentially a friction device at some point you overpower the friction.

Second issue is that modern cars have a very wide torque band, 90% of max over a 4000-5000 rpm range. Given that the ability of a CVT to hold a specific engine rpm becomes somewhat irrelevant. Of course given that I do not understand 7 to 10 gear trannies either. My Jeep tow car has a five speed and turns 1900 in lockup at 70. It gets better gas mileage than my modern GM car with the same size engine, much better cdA,  800 lbs lighter, and more gears.

 

First, there are CVT's that can handle high torque and HP. Ever hear of EXTROID CVT? So, that problem has gone away.

Second, 4,000 to 5,000 rpm is not a wide torque band. It's a narrow band, and with most cars having a small displacement engine it is imperative that with these smaller engine cars that the ECM and the engine and trans work together to put the peak HP and the peak torque right at same moment to utilize the best WOT results. That means holding the engine at the rpm those two peaks converge!

 Want to see a wide torque band? My 455 Pontiac makes gobs of torque from 1500-4800 rpm. and at 5200 rpm it's still making twice+ more than the average passenger car engine today,  hence, you don't need all those ratios. But that's 500+ ft. lbs. of torque and it's dinosaur talk. Those cars will never come again.