Pinion Angle

[joe c]

definitely I would like to see how his drive shaft is phased.

one question i thought of when reading through the forums on this topic was if the driveshaft  weights should be on the same side when phasing the front and rear shafts together. I'm going to take a closer look at mine on the spline where there is supposed to be a pin? for correct phasing position. that would answer my question.

 

Joe

[joe c]

Well...finally an update, I just received a call from the drive line shop turns out the rear CV ball and socket is worn out, scored and out of round.

I guess you really can't see this without taking the cardon joint apart. Originally the shop said this part was a little worn when I had the shaft there the first time so it makes sense but they said it wasn't that bad either... I should have this back in the car on Friday evening and hopefully put an end to this issue. I will update you guys next week after I road test the car.

 

Thank you all for you're help!

 

Joe

 

[joe c]

Hi everyone...well...here's an update, my issues continue... it's been a month long headache. the last time I posted I was waiting for the local drive line shop to install the CV kit in the rear cardon joint, this was completed along with balancing the shaft and the car returned to me.The car still vibrates at 40 mph and up no better and a little worse so it seems as speed increases. I asked for the shop to replace the front CV kit too might as well replace everything and start fresh,  but I had to supply this kit as they exhausted their supplier. When I received the kit, they refused to do any more work on the shaft as they didn't want to deal with this anymore. I can honestly say I'm not pleased with this supposedly reputable shop. I changed the CV kit myself including the u joints, all 5 of them now are new along with the hanger bearing and support. We just had a dumping of snow last night so I couldn't road test the car I will do this as soon as I can. 

Any thoughts from anyone?

 

Thanks, Joe 

[Zimm63]

On 4/4/2019 at 1:00 PM, telriv said:

Joe,

 

   IF your going to use the shaft W/O the CV joints I myself would use the carrier bearing meant for the '63 & NOT the '64-'65 as your "New" shaft now has no CV joints. & set the rear shaft 37/ 1/2*  degrees out of phase.  There should be NO reason to balance the shaft being out of phase since they are usually balanced separately any way & NOT as a unit.

   IF you end up changing the yoke on the diff. & use the '65 shaft at that point I would use the '65 carrier bearing & set the shafts to be out of phase at 67 1/2*.  The '64-'66 double CV joints was more forgiving than the '63 the reason the engineers added CV joints & diff. phasing.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

This thread is interesting in that I am working through vibration issues on my 63, although without modifications to the transmission or driveshaft, save replacing a yoke.   

 

Tom- your observation that the two halves are balanced separately makes me wonder how to give information to my driveshaft guy.  His set up will balance the entire shaft.  Should he be balancing the two halves separately?  Could that be why vibration increased after he re balanced things?  

 

 

[telriv]

Sorry but it's hard to say.

[joe c]

I road tested the car in a 50 mph zone then down the highway home. At 40 mph the vibration starts again and continues through highway speeds, no better no worse.

I'm now going to look at the rear end and bearings.

 

I'll keep updating as I go.

 

Thanks, Joe

 

[Zimm63]

13 hours ago, telriv said:

Sorry but it's hard to say.

Hard to say as in "not sure if it will make a ddiffference" or hard to say as in "the explanation is too long and involved to key in using a phone" ?

 

Balancing separately has some logic to my simple mind as the bearing in the middle would isolate they tow halves, even though they are connected?

 

[telriv]

Joe,

 

   Rear end or bearings aren't going to give you the vibrations your talking about. So in my eyes DON'T WASTE YOUR $$$$$. Pretty sure it still has to do with your driveshaft.

 

[telriv]

Zimm,

 

   Why not buy the shaft from the guy who said it was smooth with the DynaFlow trans.  Since he's using something completely different he no longer has a need for his original.  Unless he gets completely disgusted & puts the DynaFlow back in.

Just a thought.

[joe c]

Yeah... I hear you and i'm just scrambling for some solution. I should put it out there if anyone knows where to get a good used driveshaft, let me know.

 

[joe c]

i didn't know he had an original dshaft available, i though he cut it up to modify...

[joe c]

You're right i went back in the forum and found the pictures of the three dshafts and sent him a message.

 

Thanks!

[Zimm63]

Cripes, we got too many guys on this thread.    Its hard to track who has what not working and why.

 

Zimm

 

[fxrspjc]

Hey Guy's,

 

I'm still living in my own HELL.  Seems everything I do makes my situation worse.  I do have a friend in Sellersville PA that has a bunch of Riviera's  different years.  I'm pretty sure he will have a complete 65 set up for you.  It will have to be completely rebuilt before installing it, as any driveshaft would need rebuilding being over 50 years old.  His name is James his number is 215.767.0845.  Tell him Joe Cannizzaro from Staten Island with the white 63 gave you his contact info.  Good Luck!  I just got back down to FL where I keep my car.  I'm in the Phasing Stage right now but I can't say at this point if my last move made a difference yet.  I just went from 0* to 101* as per my original 63 shaft and the shop manual,  but I think they screwed up the carrier bearing yoke or whatever you want to call that piece.  Anyway keep posting as I will also and give Jim a call.  Best Wishes.

 

Joe Cannizzaro

917.582.1471

[joe c]

I’ve purchased a few parts from James in the past and not long ago I spoke with him he said the only dshaft he has for 65 was really pitted. 

 

Joe

[joe c]

Hey Guys,

 

It's been a while since posting any results but I just found a good driveshaft and after being told again by two local shops that I still have driveshaft issue I figured I should find one and see what happens,  I installed it this weekend...and I still have the same vibration problem. 

I'm keep thinking rear end but others tell me I wouldn't get that vibration from there?

 

Hey Joe Cannizzaro how are you making out with your vibration?

 

Thanks, Joe Camisa

[RivNut]

You may already be aware of this but there are a couple of other situations that would give you harmonic vibrations at certain road speeds that are not driveshaft issues. One would be that your flex plate is not correctly installed on your crankshaft; there's a 7th hole in the flexplate that aligns with a dimple in the crank hub.  A second problem could be that you harmonic balancer ring has slipped on the balancer itself. 

[Zimm63]

The 63 manual describes a test to isolate driveline vibration from engine related vibration.   Check, but I think this is it.  Determine the speed at which vibration is noted.  Divide that speed by 1.8.  For example- 60 mph / 1.8 = 34 mph.  Drive the car in low range at 34 mph.  If you have the same vibration, look at engine related issues as Ed described.  If no vibration, look at the driveline.  

 

Since you have changed out the dynaflow, figure out the rpm where it vibrates in drive, then run it at that speed in a lower gear.

 

 

[fxrspjc]

Hey Joe,  

Sorry to hear that your still vibrating.  I actually just finished up yesterday.  So I'm finally done.  No vibrating at any speed and I mean I cruised it for over 10 miles at 75 to 85 mph on Rt 75 in FL last night.  It was bad ass.  With the 323 I was running 2K at 80 with the torque converter locked up.  This ride flies.  No vibration anywhere at the lower speeds eather.  I'm gonna start a class on this in September if anyone would be interested in attending.  It will be titled "The Proper DynaFlow to 700R4 Transplant".  No actually what I found is that all of the problems I experienced were from bad parts.  I purchased all of the conversion parts from a gentleman from up near Tinton Falls FL.  He had them installed in a 63 and he said he hated it and was ripping it all out to convert back to the DynaFlow.  At the time I didn't understand why he would give up, but now I do. I just went through a year of hell because of those parts.  I saved about $800.00 and drove myself nuts.  First off was the Bellhousing adaptor.  It had a hairline crack in it at the top of the 2:00 bolt hole, so I had the same area on on each side reinforced by a aluminum welder in Cape Coral.  He platted both sides inner and outer.  That my friend will never crack again and I strongly recommend and considering doing this swap does this reinforcement before the install.  Next problem was the flywheel.  The one I got as part of the conversion parts had a washed welded on it.   My partner in crime Gene said Joe don't use that flywheel someone messed with  it and I said Gene it came off a 401 nailhead my 425 is the same exact thing.  It must have been balanced with the washer because of the conversion kit. Well I used it, Gene was right, I was wrong.  When I started the car I thought the rearview mirror was gonna fly off and hit me in the head for being so stupid.  So I ended up buying a brand new flywheel from Bendtsen being they produced the original kit.  That was the end of that problem.  Next up the infamous driveshaft. At this point I would like to recommend that anyone thinking about this conversion go with a 200 R instead of the 700R.  The main reason is the dimensions of the transmission.  The 200 R is not as long therefore you don't have to wack off as much of the front shaft as the you do with the 700r.  This in itself allows for a much shallower operating angle of the trans universal which becomes more important as we progress.  So one of the problems of the driveshaft was balancing but much more important for me was the phasing of the shaft.  Do to the fact that the driveshaft I purchased as part of the used parts package was phased at zero degrees there was a vibration.  But who knew.  My major problem was that I knew nothing about phasing and every one of the 4 driveshaft shops I went to all insisted all driveshafts are phased at zero degrees.  So now I know nothing about phasing driveshafts and through suggestions and the fact that the carrier bearing that I purchased as part of the drive shaft in the kit was a inch and a quarter shorter I moved to changing the angle of the rear end, carrier bearing and trans mount.  This was the beginning of the end for me.    At one point the vibration was so bad the dashboard was shaken.  The best I could get it was a vibration either between 20 and 25 MPH with the lower carries bearing (64 & 65) or between 40 and 45 with the taller bearing (63). I swear I was at the point where I bought a fresh bottle of Jack Daniels and a new box of Wilkinsons and I was heading for the bathtub. Then someone told me about the shop manual and drive shaft phasing.  I also had to learn the concept of how a universal joint actually functions.  I explained what I was trying to accomplish to a tech at Spicer and he told me to throw out the shop manual because due to the change in trans length and carrier bearing height nothing was going to work as described in the manual anyway.  Well anything but the phasing.  He told me the main thing was that no working angle should be more then 3 degrees and that no opposing u-joint should be more the 1/2 degree in drifference.  This deal is a course by itself.  But I learned it all, I now understand it all, and I understand how to figure the working angles and to be able to get it into the proper operating spects. It all works great but guess what?   I still had the vibration but much less severe. On to phasing.  Now I know my flywheel is good,  my drive line angles are ALL CORRECT all I have left at this point was the phasing. I  went back to a shop that worked on the shaft before.  I'm not gonna mention the name of the shop but it's not good.  First off they didn't want to phase it to 101 degrees they said I was nuts.  So I showed them the shop manual and they reluctantly agreed to do it.  After I installed it was much better but no quite perfect.  I pulled it out and checked the phasing myself with a digital gage which I now own because of setting up all the drive line angles.  Turns out he was off by 3 degrees.  I brought it back to him and he went nuts and threw me out of the shop and said I was wasting his time.  Said even if that was the problem 3 degrees wouldn't matter.  So off I go to another shop in another town.  This shop "Specialty Parts" of Charlotte Harbor FL. set it at a perfect 101 degrees rebalanced it and brother I'm done.  I have never lived through any type of Sh&t like this in my life.  This has been going on for over year.  This was one of the biggest PITA I have ever dealt with and I'm so glad it's over.  What I will say at this point is that it's a different car.  It's so much more fun to drive. The 700 R has a super low 1st gear and a real tall OD.  This thing really rips and 70 mph is 18 to 19 hundreds RPM's.  Can't wait to check the highway MPG.  My next project is to go from the 323's to a set of 356's.  What problems will I manage to create during this change.  Stay tuned for upcoming disasters.  Stay warm my friends.  If anyone would like to discuss any parts of this feel free to give me a call.  Best to everyone always and thank you to everyone that helped with information and basic knowledge of these cars.  I could have never ever accomplished this with out this site.  Thank you all again!!!!!!

 

Joe Cannizzaro

917.582.1471

[Zimm63]

Which carrier bearing did you end up using?  

 

 

[joe c]

Joe... I love your story...glad to hear your vibration is history.

 

Ed, I have read before about the harmonic balancer slipping and I've looked at it and it seems fine but I'll do a through inspection just to be sure.

The fly wheel is another sore spot but this raises the question of it's location. When I had the engine rebuilt in 86 the guys helping me install the engine bolted the flywheel on wrong and the car shook like crazy. No one could figure this out until it went to a local performance shop and a thousand bucks later...ouch...so I'm wondering if the flywheel could be out slightly...one hole off center. You'd figure this guy was very well know in the local hot rod community and knows his stuff...but you never know...

 

Zimm63, I've done the low gear test and I still get vibration. 

 

Thanks, Joe Camisa

[1965rivgs]

40 minutes ago, joe c said:

Joe... I love your story...glad to hear your vibration is history.

 

Ed, I have read before about the harmonic balancer slipping and I've looked at it and it seems fine but I'll do a through inspection just to be sure.

The fly wheel is another sore spot but this raises the question of it's location. When I had the engine rebuilt in 86 the guys helping me install the engine bolted the flywheel on wrong and the car shook like crazy. No one could figure this out until it went to a local performance shop and a thousand bucks later...ouch...so I'm wondering if the flywheel could be out slightly...one hole off center. You'd figure this guy was very well know in the local hot rod community and knows his stuff...but you never know...

 

Zimm63, I've done the low gear test and I still get vibration. 

 

Thanks, Joe Camisa

Joe,

  If you have doubts as to whether the flexplate is installed properly you can barely get up into that area with an inspection mirror and confirm the extra hole in the flexplate is aligned with the drilling in the back of the crank. You may need to unbolt the converter and slide it back toward the trans to get a good look.

  If you suspect there may be an engine vibration run the engine from idle speed up through 4  thousand RPM and check for any vibration while the car is standing still. A glass of water on top of the dash may help with detecting vibration. If you do have any vibration it would be best to look into the engine before moving on to the driveline. Make sure you evaluate the health of the engine, as in each cylinder, by doing a compression/leak down test and/or cylinder balance test and then move on to any belt driven accessories that could be presenting the vibration.

Tom Mooney

 

[joe c]

Thanks guys for your input, 

 

Tom I'm wondering again about looking forward at the engine rather than backward at the rear end, and I will inspect both the balancer and the flywheel as soon as I get it back to the shop, weather permitting. One thing that puzzles me is this vibration was present with my original driveshaft but not a real bad

vibration...that's why I left it for so long and focused on other things I wanted to do and needed. So why now the vibration is worse than before I rebuilt the original shaft and or replaced the shaft with a used one...

I've had the engine gradually rev up in RPM and there is a vibration while the car is sitting still...not a big vibration but it is there, and belt driven accessories are fairly new but I can remove the fan belts and run the engine.

 

Joe Camisa

[RivNut]

You might also jack up the engine, pull the pan and look for parts of a broken piston.  While you have it jacked up, put in some new motor mounts.  

[joe c]

I’ve put in both new motor mounts just last month from reading all the forums and advice to try, I’ve never thought of broken piston and I’d be very surprised if it was something like that but you never know.

 

 Thanks Rivnut appreciate the help...

 

I’m going to inspect the flywheel position and harmonic balancer as it is original I really hope it’s one or the other and nothing internal to the engine. 

 

Thanks, Joe Camisa

[joe c]

One more point Id like to add, like I mentioned earlier, I don’t get why the vibration is now worse than it was before I rebuilt and balanced and tried a different drive shaft. How could that come back to an engine issue. Right now I’m open to anything. 

 

thanks Joe

[fxrspjc]

I used the 64, 65 Carrier Bearing.  It's about 1 1/2 inches or so lower in height.  I purchased a new bearing and housing then cut it up so that it was the exact same height as the 64, 65.  I didn't want to have to redrill the frame so I reworked the housing.  It came out mint.

[fxrspjc]

[TKRIV]

Hi All, Here is my absolutely frustrating story of a very mild vibration my Riv had.

First off my 401 was rebuild to 425 by a Buick trained Canadian mechanic 30 years ago just before I bought it.

The mechanic was a well respected (he died 10 years ago)

Yes, he once told me about the problems you can have going from 401 to 425 but after checking the block

and heads he proceeded. Nailhead worked fine until about 6 years ago I got a very mild vibration but progressively got worse.  

Vibration was almost non-existent when starting from cold. But after 60 to 90 secs it would appear.

 

Here is the story:

• Rebalanced the drive shaft, new carrier bering and joints. No Change
• Disconnected Trans from Motor. No Change
• New Engine mounts: No Change
• Replaced entire ignition system. No Change
• Swapped over to a known good carburettor: No Change
• Removed all belts. No change.
• Pulled and inspected Harm Balancer. No Change.

 

Now we had to go inside the nailhead. (motor only did 40K miles from rebuild)

Full rebuild -New Pistons, Rings... but nothing seen to suggestion vibration issue.

Everything was double checked and balanced.

Motor back in Riv and still the vibration was there just like before !!!

 

The engine builder (old school) told me that there is nothing wrong with the engine but the owner of the firm

said that he stands by his customers and pulled the engine again and it was all good!

 

Now the engine builder remembered a job (many years ago) where the intake manifold was producing a rough idle and thorough the revs.

 

He pulled the intake manifold and blocked the holes for the exhaust cross-over passages that heat the carby.

Result - VIBRATION GONE.

Somehow exhaust gases where getting into the intake path.

 

Yes I know you all think I am crazy. I still can't believe this story myself, everything stated here is true.

Photos of the engine builder and the plates that block the exhaust gases.

Love to see any comments about my vibration nightmare.

 

Tom Kunek

 

[joe c]

Hi Tom, 

thanks for the information, I’ve read your post earlier and i’m amazed like others are too, that you found this and corrected this vibration issue. My car is all stock 425 engine and transmission. I’m waiting for a dry day to get my car to my mechanics shop so I can inspect the flywheel and harmonic balancer. Your fix is going to be next one I try if these others check out fine. 

My vibration has become very frustrating to me and always on my mind trying to figure out something else to try. It really wasn’t that bad prior to that and it was just one of those things I’d get around to whenever I had time. 

 I hope to solve this mystery soon, 

any thoughts is appreciated. 

 

Thanks, Joe Camisa 

[RivNut]

Read a little about plugging those ports.  There are two ways of doing it.  In the head, as shown, or at the ports in the intake manifold right where the carb bolts to the manifold.  Research the advantages/disadvantages of each.

[joe c]

Good point Ed, I’m not sure exactly where to look but I’ll search for it. Maybe I should block both of them?

 

Thanks Joe 

[telriv]

   Let me make a note to EVERYONE, DO NOT BLOCK THE EXHAUST using block off plates, freeze plugs or ANYTHING else resulting in blocking the exhaust in the manifold.  Reason being is we need the heat in the manifold to help flash the cat pee we run for gasoline today.  It will leave the manifold TOO COLD & you will most likely have a hesitation problem you can't figure out.  You get your carb. rebuilt many times & have the same situation.  More $$$$ wasted & all the frustrations it manifests.

   The better, more proper way to do this is block the passages in the manifold where the exhaust circulates under the carb.  IF you have any cold running problems it will only last, at most, the 1st. couple minutes of running.

   Now you don't have to use the metal plate between the manifold or car.  ANOTHER MAJOR PROBLEM is the wrong carb. gasket.  Most repair shops or parts places don't have the proper numbers.

   Hope this helps some of you.

 

Tom T.

[TKRIV]

One thing I forgot to mention is that when my nailhead was rebuilt 30 years ago the passage was blocked under the Carb.

Vibration stop when the inlet was blocked at the heads.

Again I know that my story is way out in left field but my nailhead stopped vibrating only after being blocked off at the heads.

So somewhere deep in the inlet there must be a passage letting small amount exhaust gases into the manifold.

Can't see any other explanation.

Now my nailhead runs nice and sweet.

Tom K

[carbking]

So far (there is always tomorrow  ), absolutely the DUMBEST trick I have ever pulled in 59 years of working on my own cars was blocking the exhaust crossover on a Pontiac V-8!

 

The ONLY way to get it to run in city traffic without stalling at EVERY stop sign/stop light was to install a carburetor with a manual choke! And mine has a 4-speed stick transmission. I cannot imagine how bad it would be with an automatic. After 30 minutes or so, everything is fine, and it will idle perfectly without choke.

 

Would not consider doing this again on a street engine.

 

But the above is my opinion, others may differ.

 

Jon.

Edited December 15, 2019 by carbking (see edit history)

[joe c]

Thanks for your input Tom T, Tom K, Jon 

 

I did change the carb last year with a matching carb and no difference was felt either way, I had no idea then about exhaust ports and vibrations going hand in hand sort of...

 

I’ll mention this to my mechanic friend helping me with this issue that we’re both looking for advice which is very much appreciated. 

 

Thanks guys!

Joe Camisa 

[RivNut]

You could probably give your engine a trial run by putting the stainless "gasket" directly on the manifold, and put an square bore gasket that does not have the horseshoe cutout in it under the carb.  That would temporarily block the exhaust gasses and you could check the driveability.   No change?  Go back to the correct gaskets and stacking and look elsewhere for your problem. 

 

Maybe the base of your carb is corroded and you have internal gas an/or vacuum leaks. 

[joe c]

Thanks for your input Tom T, Tom K, Jon 

 

I did change the carb last year with a matching carb and no difference was felt either way, I had no idea then about exhaust ports and vibrations going hand in hand sort of...

 

I’ll mention this to my mechanic friend helping me with this issue that we’re both looking for advice which is very much appreciated. 

 

Thanks guys!

Joe Camisa 

[joe c]

Sorry I sent the last post again 

 

Thanks a good idea Ed, I’ll try that. The carb was brand new last year so it wouldn’t be corroded. 

 

Thanks Joe

[telriv]

    In that case I would almost guarantee one intake manifold gasket, OR both, were put on incorrectly causing a vacuum leak.  I've seen this MANY times.   

    IF you or someone was not aware that the gasket could be put on wrong then it's a very good possibility they were installed incorrectly & the reason it took care of the vibration because it had a vacuum leak...