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I recall setting the driveline angle on my '63 Riviera years ago. I thought the spec was contained in the chassis manual....perhaps lettered in on one of the large line drawings showing the drivetrain. I remember buying a magnetic protractor/angle gauge from Home Depot or Lowes to do the job. It cost under twenty bucks, and served the purpose quite well. Good luck in nailing the cause of your problem down. John

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The chassis manual contains instructions on how to check and adjust the pinion angle, but I don't know that it specifies an angle.  That is, the testing part requires the use of specific Buick tools to string a marker line from the differential to the engine.  The angle is then checked by taking measurements from that line at different points along the drive shaft. If you assume that the marker line is horizontal (is it?), it should be possible to calculate the angle using the desired measurements and some basic trigonometry.

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4 hours ago, telriv said:

Joe,

   Can you/do you get involved with doing any repairs yourself???

Goggle search pinion angle.  There is nothing that I know of that's mentioned in any Buick chassis manuals.   To check it the car needs to be on a flat surface like a drive on lift, but you need to check the angle of the lift with the car on it then take your readings.

   The '63 was out of phase by 37 1/2*, NOT 63 1/2.   The '65 has two CV joints because the engineers figured it would be needed.

You don't need to bring  the shaft to a shop. You can do it yourself very easily. Do you have a shop manual???  It explains it rather clearly what needs to be done.

Any questions I'm here.  Or send me a PM & we can talk.

 

Tom T.

Thanks so much Tom.  I do have a shop manual.  I'll try to  check it out in the am.  Or by the weekend anyway.  Work tomorrow.

Best Wishes and Thanks Again

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1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

The chassis manual contains instructions on how to check and adjust the pinion angle, but I don't know that it specifies an angle.  That is, the testing part requires the use of specific Buick tools to string a marker line from the differential to the engine.  The angle is then checked by taking measurements from that line at different points along the drive shaft. If you assume that the marker line is horizontal (is it?), it should be possible to calculate the angle using the desired measurements and some basic trigonometry.

I think I was playing hooky in school during Trigonometry.  How did you know how to spell that?  :)  I actually read the part about the tool and the string.  I was hoping someone actually knew the angle so I could just set it up with a gauge.  Do you know if that tool available for purchase anywhere? 

 

Thanks much! 

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3 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Joe,

  Your driveline guy probably doesnt want to use the CV joints because they can be a pain to service and you already have a known rebuilt dshaft with new joints. It is possible for you to achieve acceptable results without them, they are a "finer tune" than may be necessary. Also, to use the `65 shaft you would have to change the diff yoke.

  You definitely need to obtain a shop manual if you do not have one.

  There may be a `65 service bulletin on driveline angle checks. Gee...I wonder why? Do you think it was possible there were considerable customer complaints? Lol......I`ll see if I can dig up the bulletin and post,

Tom M

Thanks Tom You guys are definitely the deal.  I would love to read it.

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Another quick question,  Will I have to get the driveshaft re-balanced each time I adjust the phase?  I'm thinking so but I'm hoping not.  Also after thinking about it I think I'm gonna try the original 63 set up at 37 1/2 first because I don't have any CV joints anywhere on the shaft.  Also I'm going to run the lower 64 and 65 carrier bearing due to the front shaft being shorter on the 700R4 then the Dynaflow or more like the 400 turbo then the Dynaflow.  I think the lower carrier will take some of the angle out of the front shaft.  Just my thoughts.  If any of this doesn't sound like it makes sense please correct me. 

 

Thanks much guy's, have a good night. 

 

Joe 

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5 hours ago, fxrspjc said:

Do you know if that tool available for purchase anywhere? 

As luck would have it, a listing for one of these alignment tool sets ended today on eBay -- unsold.  Check it out.

 

At a minimum, you might shoot the seller a message to ask the length of tool 8973-19.  That's the one you need to set the spacing between the axle and frame, and thus put the pinion at a known reference point.  Everything else can be calculated using measurements from the original driveshaft and the specs in Fig. 6-75 of the manual. But note: all these gyrations will only check the angle of the driveshaft.  The pinion angle is a whole 'nother animal.  

 

As a starting point, you might restore the pinion angle to its original setting and assume that it's the transmission that has changed.  Where is the centerline of the shaft compared to the Dynaflow?  That is, is it higher or lower when sitting on the mount?  You'll want to adjust the transmission to have the same angle as previously. 

 

Or you could just put the Dynaflow back in.

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Here are the Kent Moore tools needed. There is also a `63 service bulletin which changes the factory specs listed in the shop manual.  I will forward to you via a PM later.

  Keep in mind you have changed the trans arrangement so the factory specs for the forward measurements will no longer apply. But if you dial in the driveline at the rear, you can work your way forward and manipulate the front angle through trans shimming and varying the installed height of the center bearing assembly via shimming.

Tom Mooney

kent moore tools.jpg

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Joe,

 

   IF your going to use the shaft W/O the CV joints I myself would use the carrier bearing meant for the '63 & NOT the '64-'65 as your "New" shaft now has no CV joints. & set the rear shaft 37/ 1/2*  degrees out of phase.  There should be NO reason to balance the shaft being out of phase since they are usually balanced separately any way & NOT as a unit.

   IF you end up changing the yoke on the diff. & use the '65 shaft at that point I would use the '65 carrier bearing & set the shafts to be out of phase at 67 1/2*.  The '64-'66 double CV joints was more forgiving than the '63 the reason the engineers added CV joints & diff. phasing.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

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Posted (edited)

Since I caught this post kind of late I would like to add my experience.  I installed a Gear Vendors overdrive behind the turbo 400 in my 64 riveria.  Stock, this car comes with the yoke in the tranny, going to a carrier bearing then the shaft with the two CV joints.  I had no vibrations above 5 mph. but there was a shudder below 5mph under heavy acceleration.  After 3 years of living with this I found this was also a problem with Tacoma 4x4's and the solution was to lower the carrier bearing.  Very hard to do in a Riviera.

 

So last year or two, I did it.  It required cutting the carrier pedestal   (for lack of a better word) out of the frame and lowering it.  Then I used body shims (currently 1/8") to slowly raise the carrier bearing to where I was just getting a barely noticeable vibration at WOT below 5mph.  Moving it there seemed to add slight vibration above 70 mph where I didn't have it before, which I can tolerate.  

 

I guess to sum things up, I would think the double CV's would alleviate a lot of your problems as my transmission assembly is quite a bit longer than your 700r4 and I'm not having any issues to speak of.

 

And the Overdrive is real nice.  I will post a pic. of the drive shaft today as I currently have it out for its annual lube.

Edited by rapom
Correct spelling (see edit history)

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58 minutes ago, telriv said:

Joe,

 

   IF your going to use the shaft W/O the CV joints I myself would use the carrier bearing meant for the '63 & NOT the '64-'65 as your "New" shaft now has no CV joints. & set the rear shaft 37/ 1/2*  degrees out of phase.  There should be NO reason to balance the shaft being out of phase since they are usually balanced separately any way & NOT as a unit.

   IF you end up changing the yoke on the diff. & use the '65 shaft at that point I would use the '65 carrier bearing & set the shafts to be out of phase at 67 1/2*.  The '64-'66 double CV joints was more forgiving than the '63 the reason the engineers added CV joints & diff. phasing.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

It makes a lot of sense to me.  So the rear shaft will be basically set up stock and the trans could be shimmed to make up any difference the longer transmission may have in the drive line.  Tom thanks so much for these points I'll let you know how it all works out as soon as I have the time to give it a shot.

Best Wishes Always,

Joe    

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30 minutes ago, rapom said:

Since I caught this post kind of late I would like to add my experience.  I installed a Gear Vendors overdrive behind the turbo 400 in my 64 riveria.  Stock, this car comes with the yoke in the tranny, going to a carrier bearing then the shaft with the two CV joints.  I had no vibrations above 5 mph. but there was a shudder below 5mph under heavy acceleration.  After 3 years of living with this I found this was also a problem with Tacoma 4x4's and the solution was to lower the carrier bearing.  Very hard to do in a Riviera.

 

So last year or two, I did it.  It required cutting the carrier pedestal   (for lack of a better word) out of the frame and lowering it.  Then I used body shims (currently 1/8") to slowly raise the carrier bearing to where I was just getting a barely noticeable vibration at WOT below 5mph.  Moving it there seemed to add slight vibration above 70 mph where I didn't have it before, which I can tolerate.  

 

I guess to sum things up, I would think the double CV's would alleviate a lot of your problems as my transmission assembly is quite a bit longer than your 700r4 and I'm not having any issues to speak of.

 

And the Overdrive is real nice.  I will post a pic. of the drive shaft today as I currently have it out for its annual lube.

Hey Rapom,

Thanks for getting back to me and sharing your experience.  I have a guy in SWF that takes 1 1/4 inches out of the 63 Carrier to make it 4" total as it is in the 64 & 65.  I let you know how this all works out at the end of the deal.  Thanks again!

Joe  

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33 minutes ago, rapom said:

Since I caught this post kind of late I would like to add my experience.  I installed a Gear Vendors overdrive behind the turbo 400 in my 64 riveria.  Stock, this car comes with the yoke in the tranny, going to a carrier bearing then the shaft with the two CV joints.  I had no vibrations above 5 mph. but there was a shudder below 5mph under heavy acceleration.  After 3 years of living with this I found this was also a problem with Tacoma 4x4's and the solution was to lower the carrier bearing.  Very hard to do in a Riviera.

 

So last year or two, I did it.  It required cutting the carrier pedestal   (for lack of a better word) out of the frame and lowering it.  Then I used body shims (currently 1/8") to slowly raise the carrier bearing to where I was just getting a barely noticeable vibration at WOT below 5mph.  Moving it there seemed to add slight vibration above 70 mph where I didn't have it before, which I can tolerate.  

 

I guess to sum things up, I would think the double CV's would alleviate a lot of your problems as my transmission assembly is quite a bit longer than your 700r4 and I'm not having any issues to speak of.

 

And the Overdrive is real nice.  I will post a pic. of the drive shaft today as I currently have it out for its annual lube.

I would think the joint angles can be changed by shimming at the trans and carrier bearing and in the rear by adjusting the upper rear control arm?

 

`63 d-line checks 1.jpg

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Rapom,

 

   Did you have to do any tunnel mods to fit in the Gear Vendors OD????

 

Tom T.

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24 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

I would think the joint angles can be changed by shimming at the trans and carrier bearing and in the rear by adjusting the upper rear control arm?

 

`63 d-line checks 1.jpg

 

25 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

I would think the joint angles can be changed by shimming at the trans and carrier bearing and in the rear by adjusting the upper rear control arm?

 

`63 d-line checks 1.jpg

Thanks much Tom.

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Interesting information on the shuddering cure.  I knew I had to get my trans mount as high as I could go since I was adding another 18” to the stock location of the yoke.  And since the slope of the stock engine Tranny combo trends downward, I shimmed the trans as high as I could to get the stock angle.   And I was sure I could get close since I moved the tranny tunnel an inch higher.  

 

Here’s a pic of the driveshaft

BFF5A1F9-0102-4AB9-B742-508EF3F669D4.jpeg

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Telriv,  MAJOR mods are needed to add a gearvendors.

 

Trans tunnel was raised an inch which requires cutting an inch out of the shifter bracket so the console fits right.  Also frame was gusseted on the outside before removing part of the inside of the frame to make room for the overdrive.  Lots of pictures on one of my earlier posts.  My car is a daily driver and I would not attempt it on a nice Riviera.

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Joe,

  Ran across this bulletin so I thought I would post it. Apparently some of the first `64 Rivs had the `63 type drivelines in them without the double CV joints. This might be beneficial info for you if you ever did convert to the double CV d-shaft. Note that the bulletin states the addition of the CV joints eliminates any adjustment to the rear pinion angle due to their vibration cancelling effect I as has been described above.

Tom M

 

`64 d-shaft conversion 1.jpg

`64 d-shaft conversion 2.jpg

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A scan from the `63 shop manual....specs phasing of the 4700 (Riviera) d-shaft at 101* degrees??? Mistake?

Tom M

`63 prop shaft phasing.jpg

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1 hour ago, rapom said:

Since I caught this post kind of late I would like to add my experience.  I installed a Gear Vendors overdrive behind the turbo 400 in my 64 riveria.  Stock, this car comes with the yoke in the tranny, going to a carrier bearing then the shaft with the two CV joints.  I had no vibrations above 5 mph. but there was a shudder below 5mph under heavy acceleration.  After 3 years of living with this I found this was also a problem with Tacoma 4x4's and the solution was to lower the carrier bearing.  Very hard to do in a Riviera.

 

So last year or two, I did it.  It required cutting the carrier pedestal   (for lack of a better word) out of the frame and lowering it.  Then I used body shims (currently 1/8") to slowly raise the carrier bearing to where I was just getting a barely noticeable vibration at WOT below 5mph.  Moving it there seemed to add slight vibration above 70 mph where I didn't have it before, which I can tolerate.  

 

I guess to sum things up, I would think the double CV's would alleviate a lot of your problems as my transmission assembly is quite a bit longer than your 700r4 and I'm not having any issues to speak of.

 

And the Overdrive is real nice.  I will post a pic. of the drive shaft today as I currently have it out for its annual lube.

Hey Rapom,

Do you know about Phasing the driveshaft?  It's what I'm working on now thanks to Tom.  Who built your drive shaft and is it set at 67.5 degrees out of phase or is it set up like most shops do them at 0 degrees or straight up.  That's what I think my problem is now.  I have a 63 with a shortened driveshaft for a 700R.  The drive shaft came back at 0 degrees so I'm gonna clock it to 37.5 degrees and see how it goes.  I'll post what is happening as I move along.

Joe 

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14 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

A scan from the `63 shop manual....specs phasing of the 4700 (Riviera) d-shaft at 101* degrees??? Mistake?

Tom M

`63 prop shaft phasing.jpg

I have one in my shop manual that shows 90.  I think I'm just going to lay my original un-messed with shaft next to the new shorter one and set the new one to look just like the original one.

90 Deg.jpg

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I don’t think phasing for the 64 riv driveshaft is required or is possible, because of the 2 cv joints.  4700 series is the riviera.  Picture below is the 64 service book which doesn’t mention 4700 series.

 

Maybe I will do it anyway to see what happens.

F4BA2EA2-538E-4262-9438-B0C78B42BDDE.jpeg

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Looks like a 64 goes on at 0 degrees and you can’t change it.

B08157D4-CBE2-4A01-B079-3E4397CD2085.jpeg

D3670891-B0A1-4AF1-B81D-42F8B0064CA8.jpeg

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Does someone have a picture of a factory 64 riv. driveshaft so I can compare.  My yoke could have been welded on wrong.  

FD0FCF09-F4BC-4782-B462-590D21333533.jpeg

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30 minutes ago, fxrspjc said:

I have one in my shop manual that shows 90.  I think I'm just going to lay my original un-messed with shaft next to the new shorter one and set the new one to look just like the original one.

90 Deg.jpg

Joe,

 That cant be the `63 Riviera because it has a CV joint in it. Are you sure you have the shop manual for the full size models? Can you post a scan of the cover?

Tom M

 

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