Pinion Angle

[rapom]

Interesting information on the shuddering cure.  I knew I had to get my trans mount as high as I could go since I was adding another 18” to the stock location of the yoke.  And since the slope of the stock engine Tranny combo trends downward, I shimmed the trans as high as I could to get the stock angle.   And I was sure I could get close since I moved the tranny tunnel an inch higher.  

 

Here’s a pic of the driveshaft

[rapom]

Telriv,  MAJOR mods are needed to add a gearvendors.

 

Trans tunnel was raised an inch which requires cutting an inch out of the shifter bracket so the console fits right.  Also frame was gusseted on the outside before removing part of the inside of the frame to make room for the overdrive.  Lots of pictures on one of my earlier posts.  My car is a daily driver and I would not attempt it on a nice Riviera.

[1965rivgs]

Joe,

  Ran across this bulletin so I thought I would post it. Apparently some of the first `64 Rivs had the `63 type drivelines in them without the double CV joints. This might be beneficial info for you if you ever did convert to the double CV d-shaft. Note that the bulletin states the addition of the CV joints eliminates any adjustment to the rear pinion angle due to their vibration cancelling effect I as has been described above.

Tom M

 

[1965rivgs]

A scan from the `63 shop manual....specs phasing of the 4700 (Riviera) d-shaft at 101* degrees??? Mistake?

Tom M

[fxrspjc]

1 hour ago, rapom said:

Since I caught this post kind of late I would like to add my experience.  I installed a Gear Vendors overdrive behind the turbo 400 in my 64 riveria.  Stock, this car comes with the yoke in the tranny, going to a carrier bearing then the shaft with the two CV joints.  I had no vibrations above 5 mph. but there was a shudder below 5mph under heavy acceleration.  After 3 years of living with this I found this was also a problem with Tacoma 4x4's and the solution was to lower the carrier bearing.  Very hard to do in a Riviera.

 

So last year or two, I did it.  It required cutting the carrier pedestal   (for lack of a better word) out of the frame and lowering it.  Then I used body shims (currently 1/8") to slowly raise the carrier bearing to where I was just getting a barely noticeable vibration at WOT below 5mph.  Moving it there seemed to add slight vibration above 70 mph where I didn't have it before, which I can tolerate.  

 

I guess to sum things up, I would think the double CV's would alleviate a lot of your problems as my transmission assembly is quite a bit longer than your 700r4 and I'm not having any issues to speak of.

 

And the Overdrive is real nice.  I will post a pic. of the drive shaft today as I currently have it out for its annual lube.

Hey Rapom,

Do you know about Phasing the driveshaft?  It's what I'm working on now thanks to Tom.  Who built your drive shaft and is it set at 67.5 degrees out of phase or is it set up like most shops do them at 0 degrees or straight up.  That's what I think my problem is now.  I have a 63 with a shortened driveshaft for a 700R.  The drive shaft came back at 0 degrees so I'm gonna clock it to 37.5 degrees and see how it goes.  I'll post what is happening as I move along.

Joe 

[fxrspjc]

14 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

A scan from the `63 shop manual....specs phasing of the 4700 (Riviera) d-shaft at 101* degrees??? Mistake?

Tom M

I have one in my shop manual that shows 90.  I think I'm just going to lay my original un-messed with shaft next to the new shorter one and set the new one to look just like the original one.

[rapom]

I don’t think phasing for the 64 riv driveshaft is required or is possible, because of the 2 cv joints.  4700 series is the riviera.  Picture below is the 64 service book which doesn’t mention 4700 series.

 

Maybe I will do it anyway to see what happens.

[rapom]

Looks like a 64 goes on at 0 degrees and you can’t change it.

[rapom]

Does someone have a picture of a factory 64 riv. driveshaft so I can compare.  My yoke could have been welded on wrong.  

[1965rivgs]

30 minutes ago, fxrspjc said:

I have one in my shop manual that shows 90.  I think I'm just going to lay my original un-messed with shaft next to the new shorter one and set the new one to look just like the original one.

Joe,

 That cant be the `63 Riviera because it has a CV joint in it. Are you sure you have the shop manual for the full size models? Can you post a scan of the cover?

Tom M

 

[60FlatTop]

I don't like the looks of that driveshaft. No calculations or deep analysis, just a foreboding feeling.

 

If it was mine I would lengthen the front section and locate the carrier a few inches from the rear of the X-frame. Then get rid of the CV joints and run the driveshaft Chevy X-frame style with single joints. Just looks like too much "stuff" in there.

 

There is a possibility that the cross modifications and all that stuff rotating could be turning the rear of the frame into a big tuning fork. A gusseted crossmember at the rear kick up might be a worthwhile morning's work.

 

[rapom]

I just looked at an earlier post by telriv which answers my question.  Looks like I have to do some grinding.  

[rapom]

Driveshaft your commenting on runs smooth till 70mph.  I'm thinking if I phase it right it will work perfect.

[telriv]

Rapon,

 

     1964 out of phase by 67 1/2*.. See that double groove where it is missing one spline on the female side????  Well that would have matched up with the "Pin" in the male spline, if it was still there, which doesn't look like it is,  & would have been located 67 1/2* diff. between the front & rear shafts. NOW you need to calculate 67 1/2*.

 

Tom T.

[rapom]

If you look real close at the 12 o’clock position between the splines, there is a pin, which I intend to grind out.

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, telriv said:

Rapon,

 

     1964 out of phase by 67 1/2*.. See that double groove where it is missing one spline on the female side????  Well that would have matched up with the "Pin" in the male spline, if it was still there, which doesn't look like it is,  & would have been located 67 1/2* diff. between the front & rear shafts. NOW you need to calculate 67 1/2*.

 

Tom T.

Clock it 3 grooves

Tom M

[rapom]

Thanks👍!

[telriv]

Now that I look closer I see the pin.

Use a hammer & a punch & knock it out & reposition it. 

[fxrspjc]

21 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Joe,

 That cant be the `63 Riviera because it has a CV joint in it. Are you sure you have the shop manual for the full size models? Can you post a scan of the cover?

Tom M

 

Tom,

 

Looks like your right.  The previous owner gave this manual to me when I bought the car.  Guess he didn't have the right one and now neither do I. 

[rapom]

I will see if that is possible.  Got to clean it up first to see what’s what.

[KongaMan]

Here's another idea: use the rear half of the 65 shaft (with the two CV joints).  Fab a new, shorter front shaft.  Then, as the 64 manual says, "because of the constant velocity joints at the center and rear of the 4700 propeller shaft, the car is not sensitive to pinion angle adjustments."

Edited April 5, 2019 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[fxrspjc]

On 4/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, telriv said:

The '63 DynaFlow shaft from the factory is supposed to be approx. 37 1/2* out of phase That's why the joints on the front & rear shafts DO NOT line up.  IF you try to line them up you will have a vibration.

The '64/'65 &'66 shafts all have two CV (constant velocity) joints. These shafts from the factory were 67 1/2* out of phase. Designed that way. One of the MANY mistakes made/taken by most driveshaft re-builders. It happens all the time. They call & tell their customer  the shaft is out of phase & if you try to tell them ANYTHING diff. you don't know what your talking about.

I take that you need to use the shorter shaft because the 700R4 is longer then the DynaFlow & you ALSO have an adapter behind the "Nail" that ALSO adds to the length. SO, bottom line is too phase it correctly to mimic the original '63 shaft & you should then be good to go.

 

 

Tom T.

Hey Tom's,

So guy's I'm getting ready to re-phase the drive shaft for my 63 with the 700r4 that is now set at 0 deg.  I believe the 63 Riviera is a 4700 series.  Based on the figure 6-69 on page 6-33 of the 63 shop manual shows it 101 deg for a 4700 series.  Although throughout the thread I believe everyone is in agreement with the shaft being phased at 37.5.  So my question is where did the 37.5 come from if not the service manual.  I see 2 basic possibilities.  Set it at 37.5, or set it at 101 which is set it like the one is set that was originally in my car with the Dynaflow and didn't vibrate at any speed. ( Please see the picture above of my original shaft on the right.)  Sure looks much more like 101 than 37.5.  Am I looking at this correctly? Please see my drawing. The people at the driveshaft shop think I'm out of my mind and I'm beginning to wonder myself.  I know you told me about the tool on e-bay to set up the pinion angle but when I went to purchase (The Same Day) it it was already sold.  That my friend is the story of my life. Please look at the drawing I did.  Is this right?  Do I have this right?  Incidentally the one that I have on the left side with the 2 CV joints is a 65 unit that looks like the 67.5 doesn't it? 

[fxrspjc]

5 minutes ago, fxrspjc said:

Hey Tom's,

So guy's I'm getting ready to re-phase the drive shaft for my 63 with the 700r4 that is now set at 0 deg.  I believe the 63 Riviera is a 4700 series.  Based on the figure 6-69 on page 6-33 of the 63 shop manual shows it 101 deg for a 4700 series.  Although throughout the thread I believe everyone is in agreement with the shaft being phased at 37.5.  So my question is where did the 37.5 come from if not the service manual.  I see 2 basic possibilities.  Set it at 37.5, or set it at 101 which is set it like the one is set that was originally in my car with the Dynaflow and didn't vibrate at any speed. ( Please see the picture above of my original shaft on the right.)  Sure looks much more like 101 than 37.5.  Am I looking at this correctly? Please see my drawing. The people at the driveshaft shop think I'm out of my mind and I'm beginning to wonder myself.  I know you told me about the tool on e-bay to set up the pinion angle but when I went to purchase (The Same Day) it it was already sold.  That my friend is the story of my life. Please look at the drawing I did.  Is this right?  Do I have this right?  Incidentally the one that I have on the left side with the 2 CV joints is a 65 unit that looks like the 67.5 doesn't it? 

Sorry, the picture of my shaft is on the first page of this thread not above, sorry.

On 4/4/2019 at 3:10 PM, 1965rivgs said:

A scan from the `63 shop manual....specs phasing of the 4700 (Riviera) d-shaft at 101* degrees??? Mistake?

Tom M

 

[1965rivgs]

Joe,

  You have a bit of a hodge podge going on here in that you have deviated from stock with the front driveshaft (who knows if they welded the yoke with the same phasing relative to the grooves?) and have changed the length of the original transmission and therefore the position (up or down), relative to the frame, of the front yoke of the driveshaft. You have also changed the length of the front shaft and POSSIBLY the relationship between the position of the front yoke relative to the splines which index front and rear shafts to each other. I note these things not to be critical but to make the point that maybe the original specs are not applicable at this stage.

  I think what I would do is place the front yoke of the driveshaft at the factory height, relative to the frame, making adjustments for the increased length of the trans, by shimming the trans mount. Use the year appropriate factory center bearing and as a starting point use the phasing from your original `63 driveshaft. As a second option try the 67 and 1/2 phasing. If that proves unsatisfactory try moving the front to rear shaft relationship by one groove at a time until you find the phasing that works best. I know this requires quite a bit of back and forth but sometimes that`s the way "custom" changes work out...and how we learn.

  I know you dont want to incur the cost of rebuilding the rear half of the `65 driveline but adding the CV joints will help to take the rear pinion angle out of the equation.

Tom Mooney

[fxrspjc]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

Joe,

  You have a bit of a hodge podge going on here in that you have deviated from stock with the front driveshaft (who knows if they welded the yoke with the same phasing relative to the grooves?) and have changed the length of the original transmission and therefore the position (up or down), relative to the frame, of the front yoke of the driveshaft. You have also changed the length of the front shaft and POSSIBLY the relationship between the position of the front yoke relative to the splines which index front and rear shafts to each other. I note these things not to be critical but to make the point that maybe the original specs are not applicable at this stage.

  I think what I would do is place the front yoke of the driveshaft at the factory height, relative to the frame, making adjustments for the increased length of the trans, by shimming the trans mount. Use the year appropriate factory center bearing and as a starting point use the phasing from your original `63 driveshaft. As a second option try the 67 and 1/2 phasing. If that proves unsatisfactory try moving the front to rear shaft relationship by one groove at a time until you find the phasing that works best. I know this requires quite a bit of back and forth but sometimes that`s the way "custom" changes work out...and how we learn.

  I know you dont want to incur the cost of rebuilding the rear half of the `65 driveline but adding the CV joints will help to take the rear pinion angle out of the equation.

Tom Mooney

Hodge Podge to say the least.  I think what you are saying about the trans height and shimming it is right on point.  I will use that as a starting point.  I'll measure the difference in height from the bottom of the trans mount to the center of the output shaft on both the Dynaflow and the 700r4 and try and determine where the trans should sit on the cross member in relationship to height. Then I'll try to make up the difference with trans shims or carrier bearing shims.  Hope if anything has to be shimmed it's the trans as not to disturb the rear shaft angle. I will also set up the phasing of the shaft as a copy of the original shaft which I still have that no one has ever messed with and has no vibration.  It looks like it's at 101 and that is where I'm going to start from.  I'll also use the carrier bearing from the 63 which is the taller of the two at about 5 1/4 inches.  Man I hope that if the trans has to be moved it's up and not down.  Do you have any idea of where I could buy new CV joints for the rear half of a 65 shaft?  I found rebuilding kits, but if I do a rear half shaft with CV joints I would like to buy them new if possible.  Thanks again for your time Tom.  I'm sorry to keep bothering you

[rapom]

Just wanted to update anyone that's interested.  I tried several times, after removing pin on splines to see if all vibrations would be eliminated moving the to the factory spec. location.  Unfortunetly, the way my shaft was welded, the spline spacing was about 43 degrees and 27 degrees.  (I couldn't get it near the 33 or 37 degrees.)   Both of which enhanced vibrations in the 40-45mph area and 60mph on up.  So I ended up putting it back at 0 degrees and my vibrations went away.  Except for above 70mph which isn't really that bad.  This is on a gear vendors, overdrived 64 riviera with a shortened driveshaft.

[joe c]

I have a 65 Riv with a stock drive line and i'm experiencing the same vibration through the center of the car after 40 mph and up. The drive shaft was taken out and inspected by a drive line shop, all was good with the drive shaft.

 

After reading all of the forums on this issue I've decided to replace the hanger and bearing and re phase at 67-1/2 degrees which didn't make any difference.

I've had the shaft out a few times to try phasing at different angles just to see any difference...sometimes worse but nothing better for vibration.

 

any suggestions?

Thanks

[1965rivgs]

4 minutes ago, joe c said:

I have a 65 Riv with a stock drive line and i'm experiencing the same vibration through the center of the car after 40 mph and up. The drive shaft was taken out and inspected by a drive line shop, all was good with the drive shaft.

 

After reading all of the forums on this issue I've decided to replace the hanger and bearing and re phase at 67-1/2 degrees which didn't make any difference.

I've had the shaft out a few times to try phasing at different angles just to see any difference...sometimes worse but nothing better for vibration.

 

any suggestions?

Thanks

  If you run the engine RPM from idle to 3000 RPM AT A STAND STILL is there vibration?

  Did you check your trans mount to be sure it is not collapsed and therefore changing ujoint angle?

Tom

[joe c]

Thanks Tom for you're input,

The engine mounts and tranny mount was changed in 1986... they look solid, i guess it wouldn't hurt to replace them anyway.

I've ran the car on the hoist at 40-50 mph and the vibration is still there.

 

Thanks, Joe 

[joe c]

no vibration at a stand still in park running the engine at a high rpm

[KongaMan]

Try rotating your tires or swapping them out one at a time with the spare.

[joe c]

Yes, my mechanic suggested that until he drove the car and said the vibration wasn't from the tires or rims, it wouldn't hurt to try it.

I'm taking the car to a reputable drive train shop tomorrow after work so they can drive it and get their opinion.

 

thanks for you're input... i'm stumped

[fxrspjc]

Hey There JC,

 

I put a 700R in mine have now own at least a half a dozen driveshafts.  I still have the vibration and am now working in the Phasing stage.  I don't live in the same state as the car is in so I don't get to work on it often.  This has been, if not the worst, at least in the top three of the most discouraging things I have ever addressed in my life.  Some mechanics say I'm just gonna have to learn to live with it.  Seems everything I try just moves the location of the vibration up or down the speed range or makes it worse.  I was trying to preserve the motor.  Mine has the original optioned 425 which from what I understand is supposed to be a pretty big deal in a 63.  The sad part for me is that having the car in FL. most of the traveling I do with it is up and down RT 75.  Man if you can't run at 70 + mph you had better stay on the porch.  That is why I did away with my trouble free Dynaflow.  Anyway if you need to vent to save your sanity feel free to e-mail me and I'll send you my phone #.  If your car is all stock and this started the first thing I would do is replace the center carrier bearing.   Maybe the rear bushings.  If you altered anything like me " Change Trans" good luck.  Seems once you change the configuration of the geometrics of the original design all hell breaks loose.  My biggest question is, how are the people that bag these cars able to continue to drive them?  

 

Best Wishes,

Joe

fxrspjc@verizon.net

[KongaMan]

Seems that the vibration occurs only when the rear wheels are rotating.  If that's correct, try dropping the drive shaft and running the engine//transmission up to speed.  If you've got the vibration, look forward.  If not, concentrate on the rear end and axles.  You might also closely inspect the rear control arm bushings and track bar bushings.  Loose parts can manifest themselves in strange ways with different resonant frequencies and what-not.  And look carefully for parts that might be rubbing on the frame.  If you've got the guts ( ), go under the car when it's running and the vibration is present and start grabbing stuff (although probably not the wheels or driveshaft) to see if you can feel where it's coming from.  

[joe c]

Hey Joe,

 

Good point about the guys that bag these cars... yes my car is all original and what I mean, nothing modified but in the mid 80's when I rebuilt the car everything was replaced with original parts driveshaft hanger and u joints. As mentioned in earlier opinions there has been a lot of hands on these cars over the years even though I'm only the third owner. With the help of the internet and the shop manual I'm checking things off my list but this one has me going nuts..

I too have the 425 engine and just recently changed the hanger bearing to see if that helped and actually seemed worse when I drove the car. I've re-phased as per Buick specs 67-1/2 degrees and the car seemed a little smoother from the start but once you hit 40 mph the vibration through the center of the console and back of the front seats is annoying. I've also tried balancing as per the shop manual with two gear clamps but that didn't help either.

 I agree with you, the 40-70 mph is normal driving speeds and who wants to feel vibration then?

 

 There is a guy in my town who has the same year Riv and he let me drive his car and no vibration at all... his car is all original... I mean from 65...

 

  After reading all the input about your troubles I feel your pain and aggravation, maybe a little less on my issue... I hope the drive line shop can help tomorrow afternoon

I might change the motor mounts and tranny mount just to see what happens... if anything

 

My email is jcamisa@cogeco.ca it would be good to talk 

 

Thanks for your help!

 

[KongaMan]

3 minutes ago, joe c said:

There is a guy in my town who has the same year Riv and he let me drive his car and no vibration at all... his car is all original... I mean from 65...

 

If you know this guy well and can sweet talk him, put his drive shaft in your car and go for a spin.

[joe c]

Yes that's a good point, I'll get it back to my mechanic on Saturday and try your advice. I've already been underneath while running but looking more at the driveshaft and wheels and not the other stuff involved.

there's defiantly nothing hitting...like driveshaft to frame etc...while on the hoist anyway that I can see

 

Thanks, Joe

[joe c]

Ya that might be a stretch for that one... I sort of hinted but he didn't comment back 

[fxrspjc]

Honestly don't think I'm nuts, but you may want to try and work out some kind of deal with the guy that let you drive his car to borrow his complete shaft just to try it.  If the problem is still there at least you could save yourself a lot of aggravation knowing it has nothing to do with your shaft. Then you could move on to other things.  Mine being a shorter length makes it impossible for me to try someone's stock unit.  Also if he agrees take many pictures of his out of the car so you can mimic the one you own.  Also just for shits and grins check the phasing on his shaft while its out.  Speak soon on my way to work.

 

Joe

[fxrspjc]

Dam I didn't see the other post!