ryan95

Please help me with these oddball 1923 lug bolts

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I am posting this here to try and gain some leads and knowledge from all of you forum members. One of the more difficult parts left to source for the 1923 Moon 6-40 that I am restoring are the wheel lug bolts. The situation is that there are supposed to be 23 total lug bolts on the car, 5 per tire and 3 for the spare. I have 22 currently. Of those 22, some of them have worn or stripped threads. The picture is of one of the better ones. For safety, I at least need to replace the worn out ones. For show purposes, I need to come up with enough to make a complete set. Ideally, I would like to find a way to get a whole set of 23 made for a reasonable price. Old black and white pictures hint that they were nickel plated, and the pits and nicks would show through the plating for sure. What makes these difficult to locate are the flat instead of tapered seat, since they are hub centered rims instead of lug centered. They are more similar to a typical hex head bolt than they are to a traditional lug bolt. The big difference is the length of the head. My local machine shop told me they can make them for 40 a piece, but that is a little steep for me unless it is the only option. Specs are the following, 9/16-18 threads, a little over an inch of threads, flat seat, 3/4" hex head, 1/2" head length. I can take other measurements if needed. My big question is do any of you know of any reasonable custom bolt manufacturers, or know of another vehicle that used similar bolts, or have any other ideas? Moon was an assembled car, so I don't doubt that other 1920's cars with early disc wheels used similar or the same bolts. I also don't doubt that I am the first antique car restorer who needed to replace 100 year old lug bolts. What are my options?

1463957298_MoonLugBolt.thumb.JPG.4d6441b9e49abff64d173dcccbeb2ca3.JPG

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As you say, similar lug bolts with tapered seats were once common, Chrysler products used them up to 1970. Could you not chuck such bolts in a lathe and turn down the tapered area to make them flat?

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Thanks Jan, I will consider those. We can talk about them over the phone sometime.

Rusty, That sounds like a good option if I can find some the right size. Can you think of any specific applications to look into?

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I do not think rusty"s idea would work I do not recall the studs on my 60s chrysler products were that fat.they were more like 7/16-1/2 area not sure my 59s had that style either(stud) more like rest of industry.but I am afflicted with CRS😉

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The quote from my machine shop was for them to turn it on a lathe from hex stock. I think their quote is reasonable even if it is more than I will pay. There has to be someone out there on the internet that makes custom fasteners at a lower cost by by using CNC or some other more efficient process. I just haven't found them yet.

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On re reading your post it seems you want identical parts for show purposes,  not just functional replacements. Sorry I have no new ideas. There is a good possibility someone has new old stock parts but how to find them. Maybe you could advertise in Hemmings.

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You need some advice from a metallurgist, I think they need to be hardened. Bob 

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I agree on hardened of some sort and that it isn't something to guess on. I'll look into Hemmings to see if anything looks promising. My guess on why they are so hard to find is that they just look like an odd shaped bolt without the typical taper on them. Like many vintage parts, once the application is lost, it is useless, not easy to sell, and becomes junked or stored with other random unknown items.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ryan95 said:

The quote from my machine shop was for them to turn it on a lathe from hex stock. I think their quote is reasonable even if it is more than I will pay. There has to be someone out there on the internet that makes custom fasteners at a lower cost by by using CNC or some other more efficient process. I just haven't found them yet.

 

Just as a heads up, the shop would likely use 12L14 steel and cut the threads. The originals likely were a forged alloy steel and the threads were rolled not cut. Both mean far greater strength. Shop made might be fine for driving from the trailer to the field, not sure I'd tour with them.  I'm just sayin.............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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This is all good to consider. Thank you. It sounds like all the more reason to either find originals or have a custom fastener manufacturer make them if I have to. 

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Try the Horseless Carriage Specialty Shoppe. They have made special wheel bolts for our Stanley at a very reasonable price. the quality was very good

Ken

 

Horseless Shoppe brochure.jpg

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You should be able to have new ones turned down in stainless and be quite delighted with results for show, driving, and ..., plus a nice long-term solution. 

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Posted (edited)

This Forum is USELESS if you want to do the search and post the link to ANY source. You are own your own type in 1928 Packard Wheel bolts and the makers name and photos of the product turn up. 5/8 x 18 so you may have to drill your wheels and retap the hubs. Bob 

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

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Ryan95, I can help you. My name is Ralph and I am a semi-retired tool & model maker for over fifty years and have a home shop in North Florida. I have made  specialty parts for many antique cars and other equipment in recent years. I would use 4140 hex stock, commonly known as chrome/molly. Stainless, although it would look good and not rust, tends to stretch. After machining, I can send them out to a reliable plater for nickel plating.  12L14 contains lead for free machining  but would likely  not be strong enough for wheel studs  There is truth to rolled threads being stronger, but these would be single point cut to the correct size and I am certain would be plenty strong enough. 4140 is a tough material. Hardening is for wear. hardened threads would be brittle and break.

In order to make them, I would need you to send me the best one you have so I could get the correct measurements. I have been active with AACA National for about 7 years in judging and in other areas and know virtually all of the current and past directors as well as headquarters personnel, so I have plenty of references. I am attaching a photo of specialty carriage bolts and nuts I made for a 1930's Packard which holds the headlight bar to the fenders.

To help you and for the sake of getting the car going,  I will make them for about half the 40 quote you got, including plating and return freight. 

Let me know if I can help and how to contact you direct.  Ralph

Packard bolts.JPG

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Thank you for all of the ideas. The Packard ones are interesting, but they are 5/8 instead of 9/16.

 

Ralph, I will save your information Incase things fall through with Michael Bernard. He is giving me a quote tomorrow. It looks like you do some nice work. Michael is a half hour drive from me though, which is convenient. Do you do any casting by chance or have other useful restoration skills?

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Ryan, I do not do any casting work, or have a lot of restoration experience, especially on vintage vehicles, but I can help with most any machine shop work that is small enough for me to handle. I would not recommend drilling and tapping the present hubs, especially by hand, as you could easily mess them up.  The  5/8 Packard bolts look similar,  but they would not be authentic if a judge knew the difference. Mike's suggestion could work, but be sure to get grade 8 stud material. Grade 8 is 4140, heat treated to around RC 30 for toughness. Best wishes with the project.

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Thanks Ralph. I will use your recommendations when the new ones are designed.

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I have 2 exactly as you need 1 1/4 from under head to end and 8 that are 1 1/2  and 6 that are 1"   e mail me for more info

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