nick8086 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 It is all for sale: https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/the-treasures-of-the-tupelo-automobile-museum-are-up-for-auction/ss-BBV0ZhY?li=BBnb4R5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25593/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Interesting collection but their estimated pricing seems to be all over the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 I posted it , Darrin number 22 is for sale .. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25593/lot/499/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I want the Cord and the White- can anyone give me a loan? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) The article left out the 1914 Peerless Model 48-Six Limousine. This is one of only 647 motorcars built by the company in 1914, they having geared up for years of war production. Cost over $6,000 new, with a 137" wheelbase. Coachbuilder: Kimball. This would have been from the very peak of the company's long luxury car tradition. Though Peerless had one model which was more expensive, with the biggest engine ever put in a production car...the 60-Six...this is the most luxurious car in the collection, in my opinion. Unrestored, unfortunately. Almost certainly never shown on the car show circuit, and never on public display in the museum or listed on their online roster of 93 cars(even now). photo by Bonhams, est. 1793 Edited March 27, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans1 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Are the listed Buyer's premiums typical of other auctions? I have recently experienced 20%, but 10% is what I often see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md murray Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 hours ago, jeff_a said: The article left out the 1914 Peerless Model 48-Six Limousine. This is one of only about 400 motorcars built by the company in 1914, they having geared up for 4 years of war production. Coachbuilder: Kimball. Unrestored, almost certainly never shown on the car show circuit, and never on public display in the museum or listed on their online roster of 93 cars. photo by Bonhams, est. 1793 -how bout the engine? is that a plus or a minus? is the theory behind it that they're proposing a plausible one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) I wondered about the engine as 6-year-old photos I had didn't match the Peerless 48(one of the finest powerplants they ever built -- 578 cu. in., rated 48 SAE/ALAM* h.p., but brake h.p. rating would be much more). Did not know about the Ahrens-Fox connection til today. Their theory is plausible, I guess. A fellow would need the Peerless and Ahrens-Fox archives to find out, unless the sellers have some documentation. * As you know, SAE was originally a Royal Automobile Club rating for tax purposes. A Chevrolet 427 V-8 engine would have only 74.8 h.p. using this old rating(smaller bore but more cylinders). Edited March 26, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) Jeff, peerless engine was swapped out, so doubt this car is going to bring big $, though the engine is still magnificent! buyers premiums listed at 12%.................. some great cars-will be interesting to see the final hammer down. Edited March 26, 2019 by mercer09 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) It's all news to me. I hadn't heard it until I read the Auction blurb. They say Period engine swap and possible Ahrens-Fox Co. ownership. Did they order a chassis w/o engine & use their similar t-head engine from new, or was there a swap ten years later? I don't know. The ball would be in their court. It is an enormous motorcar....unfortunately, the view 5 posts up does not show its height relative to people. I'll try to find one. Here is another 48-Six Limousine Wayne Burgess photographed in Murphys, California, a beautifully-restored 1913. Wayne is a long-time AACA Forums member and moderator who took the photo on a Western Divisional Tour about ten years ago. This Peerless won Best-In-Class at Pebble Beach in 2010, owners Dick & Marcia King. Note how normal-sized people only come up to the steering wheel. Edited March 30, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 On 3/26/2019 at 11:39 PM, jeff_a said: It is an enormous motorcar....unfortunately, the view 5 posts up does not show its height relative to people. And, that is why we no longer have early closed cars (ex. electric) - you need a 9 foot garage door and even then have to often lift door up a little and ... Sidenote; Ahrens -Fox is a Cincinnati company and I wonder if it's records survive. A neighbor was an Ahrens and I know they had a room of photos, but he never mentioned records (they all made a good living too making the trucks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Catalog photos of the J Duesenberg sure make it look nicer than the earlier in Museum shots. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) On 3/30/2019 at 11:26 AM, 1937hd45 said: Catalog photos of the J Duesenberg sure make it look nicer than the earlier in Museum shots. Bob It actually a very nice car and given its sill line is very exotic for the time, that being said though it is missing a lot of really expensive parts off of it - I bet a realistic 75K for even the most resourceful of ACD club members. And, Ed is correct - $200K for parts alone just to get car complete to then restore it is not out of the question and if doing an over the top 100 point car I would say even more. Headlights Parking Lamps Taillight (or Taillights if you want to upgrade to a pair) Horns Rear Bumper Luggage Rack Running Board trim Steering Wheel cluster Gear Shift Knob Rear View Mirror Wipers (a new one is $2,750 and you need 2) Dash Lights Idiot lights Spark Control Ignition Switch possibly Brake Adjustment Hardware for dash Oil Pressure Gauge (a new one is $495) Temperature Gauge Amp Gauge (a new one is $540) Altimeter Gauge Fuel Gauge (but car has a marginal substitute) Chronograph (but car has a marginal substitute) Mechanical "Brain" under hood for idiot lights/Bijur/fuel pump, and .... (a new one is $16,500) Intake Manifold is heavily repaired (who knows how that will come out). And reproduction proper exterior door handles too Then you need a ton of things like emblems on .... and ... Edited April 1, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Do you think that is the original interior or was there something more elegant in there when new? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 It’s 200k to make it all correct if you don’t run into a bad engine or head. Radiator is another 15 and none of these numbers include cosmetics. Nice car. It’s going to be interesting to see the hammer on it. I would value it at 350 to 375 for safe money. After that your rolling the dice. Best bet is it sells for 575-650. I’ll call out a number of 560. Interesting sport...... others chime in with your estimate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Someone did post a factory photo of the car, and it looked quite nice, nothing wrong with stately, subdued looks. If we are playing guess the hammer price, I'm in at $447,000. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 There was a 10 page thread on this auction already. It seems the search index has gone bye bye so I can't find it. We went in to detail on almost all the cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, alsancle said: There was a 10 page thread on this auction already. It seems the search index has gone bye bye so I can't find it. We went in to detail on almost all the cars. Thank you! you just saved me untold time searching for that photo. Now if it was some Tesla stuff search that would right up top on the useless search info chart. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 23 hours ago, 1937hd45 said: Do you think that is the original interior or was there something more elegant in there when new? Bob The Duesenburg is reupholstered. I somewhat question the way the back seat rear quarter panels are upholstered (aka the vertical line where upholstery joins), but I guess it is plausible. I also doubt the way the rear seat door pulls are just screwed on (usually in a high end car big screws do not appear in interiors (yes little # 7 nickle plated screws in window trim and yes # 8's and # 10's in door check straps and sill plates, but not too much else). As to more elegant - the Upholstery tends to be what is in many Lincolns and period cars - a grey pinstripe. There may be a photo of the car new out there somewhere. As to elegant as in fancy - plain is modern and fancy is fussy (30's cars are across the board). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 22 hours ago, edinmass said: It’s 200k to make it all correct if you don’t run into a bad engine or head. Radiator is another 15 and none of these numbers include cosmetics. Nice car. It’s going to be interesting to see the hammer on it. I would value it at 350 to 375 for safe money. After that your rolling the dice. Best bet is it sells for 575-650. I’ll call out a number of 560. Interesting sport...... others chime in with your estimate. I recall sitting at the workbench of Fran Roxas shop one day and he showed me a stitch welded crack in a Duesenberg head and said a good 50% of the cars he had restored have had to have some sort of crack repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, edinmass said: It’s 200k to make it all correct if you don’t run into a bad engine or head. Radiator is another 15 and none of these numbers include cosmetics. Nice car. It’s going to be interesting to see the hammer on it. I would value it at 350 to 375 for safe money. After that your rolling the dice. Best bet is it sells for 575-650. I’ll call out a number of 560. Interesting sport...... others chime in with your estimate. It is more attractive (the drop body sill is very unusual for a Duesenberg and a very good look) than the car Judkins Berline recently Worldwide sold - as far as a sedan it is worth putting money into and can be a Concours winner. And, it is supposedly a "matching number" car. The Judkins Berline recently sold at Worldwide (all be it on their website is listed as "still available") was listed as $506,000 sale (http://www.classiccarweekly.net/2018/12/19/duesenberg-j-348/. Ed, I am leaning toward your opinion, all be it maybe a little higher toward it having a value in the 400's and a little lower on the sale price at say $525,000. Edited March 31, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 If the car were yours what would you correct or change first? I'd have the headlights corrected first, just can't stand the look of them. Is the belt line in the hood and cowl some what lower where they meet at the firewall? Is it ok to lower the rear so there isn't so much free travel in the wheel, maybe period correct, but to my eye the wheel filling the fender opening looks better. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: If the car were yours what would you correct or change first? I'd have the headlights corrected first, just can't stand the look of them. Is the belt line in the hood and cowl some what lower where they meet at the firewall? Is it ok to lower the rear so there isn't so much free travel in the wheel, maybe period correct, but to my eye the wheel filling the fender opening looks better. Bob The hood fit issue is caused by the lack of hood lacing. As to height, it probably does not have the proper tire on it, as well as having cosmetic issues. There is also a couple 100lbs of missing parts on the rear matched to a tank of gasoline. If you look real close between current photos and original photos the headlight cross/mounting bar seems mounted in a different place (my guess is the original bar had a much greater bend to it that allowed different mounting). Also, my guess is the car was used as a parts car at one point for an open car. If I wanted a Duesenberg garage queen, I would be buying all the missing parts and the wheels would be at Dayton Wire Wheel to be chromed a day after I received the car and a new set of Firestone Double Whitewalls would be on the UPS truck coming to me. That being said though, the car really should be restored. Here is how is works: If you short sheet the bed, you have just short sheeted the bed. So, if you spent the money on the frontside you can get it back on the sale side and if you do not then you will not. If you dream of owning a Duesenberg at a reasonable price then you can buy it, but it will not be anything more than it is now without properly handling all its problems. Also, pretty easy to tell an original Duesenberg headlight from a reproduction - things like that matter if really doing a car right (a large portion of the reproduction parts are extraordinary and many are super nice by any standard, but a touch off still). Again, the car needs totally restored. Edited March 31, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 This car is not for an entry level Model J person. It is better suited for a deep pockets PB entrant who wants to show up in something that is unique and has never been shown before. I could see it kicking ass in American Closed, after 700 or 800k has been spent on it. Somebody needs to find the original thread on this auction. I don't know where the search index went, but you can't find anything older than 3 weeks right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 My choice would be the "'1964 Great Lesley". A one of a kind car that would be a great regular driver. Looks authentic to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) Thank you for the original photo John. Do you think the aluminum louvers and belt line are buffed out, or is that just a reflection than makes things look that way? Bob Edited April 1, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said: Thank you for the original photo John. Do you think the aluminum louvers and belt line are buffed out is just a reflection than makes things look that way? Bob I never noticed until you mentioned. I am leaning toward "optical allusion" given lighting on original picture verses current pictures. It almost looks like the 3/4" ish wide belt molding could be buffed aluminum/plated, but in reality is not really like that. My original thought was that it it a Black car with a White or Ivory pinstripe on the belt. I doubt the hood louvers are buffed either - that looks to me like a reflection via angle of sun and how it is hitting windshield, tire cover, and .... Edited March 31, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, alsancle said: This car is not for an entry level Model J person. It is better suited for a deep pockets PB entrant who wants to show up in something that is unique and has never been shown before. I could see it kicking ass in American Closed, after 700 or 800k has been spent on it. I agree, the car stands a chance of winning in the Pebble Beach closed class and really every single other Concours closed class on Globe - it is as stunning sedan and sounds to be a one-off (verses many other Duesenberg closed cars are one of a handful, a little too big for their own good, an/or ...). See attached: It reminds me of the Dupont Merrimac Town Car from the Nethercutt Collection when you see that Dupont with the roof on over the front compartment and /or Hollywood Rollston Stutz (which by the way survives and lives in Indianapoliss). Edited March 31, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 42 minutes ago, John_Mereness said: Now there was a missed opportunity. I was going back and forth with who I think was the nephew of the long term owner back about 20 years ago. The car was restored in the 70s and has sat in the garage for at least 10 or 15 years at this point. It eventually sold, and then sold again through RM at Arizona a few years later and I think it still in the Stutz building in Indy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said: My choice would be the "'1964 Great Lesley". A one of a kind car that would be a great regular driver. Looks authentic to me. Personally I would go with the Hannibal Twin Eight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 I went back through the forum manually and found the thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, alsancle said: Now there was a missed opportunity. I was going back and forth with who I think was the nephew of the long term owner back about 20 years ago. The car was restored in the 70s and has sat in the garage for at least 10 or 15 years at this point. It eventually sold, and then sold again through RM at Arizona a few years later and I think it still in the Stutz building in Indy. Correct ! It was first advertised in AACA (I believe) and all of us who like a Close Coupled Sedan and Stutz cars should have just written a check. It was pretty raggy car though that had been very weathered prior to restoration, that was amateur restored (not quite finished either) - inappropriate top material choice/60's nylon faux ribbed bedford cord interior/bronze unplated door hinges/and ..., and that had again fallen on hard times again with such as failing paint. I see it regularly and it has been repeatedly upgraded all be it not really done to standard it deserves. Edited March 31, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 "'1964 Great Lesley" was shown at Lexington Concours about 3 or 4 years ago - it has held up nicely and is worthy of a decent sized check being written for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) My guess someone is there are several people that love with the Nash colors, but I would not be betting much more than a $1.00 to $10.00 on it - maybe $1.00 to $5.00. Rare car though and my best advice is to use it fearlessly for a while and repaint or just repaint immediately. This one RM has coming up is somewhat color challenged too, though definitely a much better look: Edited April 1, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 5 hours ago, John_Mereness said: My guess someone is there are several people that love with the Nash colors, but I would not be betting much more than a $1.00 to $10.00 on it - maybe $1.00 to $5.00. Rare car though and my best advice is to use it fearlessly for a while and repaint or just repaint immediately. This one RM has coming up is somewhat color challenged too, though definitely a much better look (+ it is an Ambassador): I think they are both Advanced Eights. Did they make any on the ambassador chassis? I think The Tom Lester car might be one but can’t search cause I’m stuck on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I guess there were 3 ambassadors for 33, and the Tom Lester car is the only one that still exists. https://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z10994/nash-ambassador-twin-8.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Yes, and Advanced -Eight https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0042-1932-nash-advanced-eight-convertible-sedan-by-seaman/750691 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 The J hammers for 405k......30 k more than I thought it was worth, but less than my selling price guess of 560. Seems not too many people chasing a rare Rollston bodies J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 My guess was this: "Ed, I am leaning toward your opinion, all be it maybe a little higher toward it having a value in the 400's and a little lower on the sale price at say $525,000." Cool car for any CCCA era sedan (and there are many but not that many) - I do hope it finds deep pockets to restore it and we do not see it the same condition 15-20 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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