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28-29 LINCOLN Info wanted


1937hd45

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It sure looks like Locke or Brunn. From thr windshield frame I will guess Locke, but remember they were factory batch bodies listed in the catalog, thus they are semi custom or factory depending on your opinion. They made lots of Locke bodied touring cars, a few Brunn, and at least one Holbrook survives. Where are all the Lincoln guys?

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Ed you state correctly -  even though Locke may have made the body , it was a multi order deal from Lincoln that was shown in their sales catalogs. It was more economical to have Locke make them  then then to set up a production of these at the factory . Franklin had this with Merrimac for some open bodies in the late 1920s, and Walker with sedan bodies . Were Locke, Merrimac and Walker producing limited run and one of bodies ?- absolutely , But they also had to pay for things and would not turn down a multi batch order of bodies. They could offer a better price for each body if they were ordered in quantity and most often were produced in batches of 5 to 10 at a time. Weyman ( in the USA) did this with Stutz.

Re driving a model L Lincoln as Bob states - my experience was behind the wheel of Austin Clark's 1929 dual cowl phaeton. A well used car ( he drove it out and back across the USA in 1953) and it had an updraft later carburetor and manifold fitted, but it was a real pleasure to drive. Easy to steer , even at low speeds, we even took it into Manhattan at least twice to go listen to jazz at night at Jimmy Ryan's jazz club on West 54th Street.  ( I believe the car that Austin owned is now in Germany and has been restored).

Happy St. Patrick's Day everyone.

Walt on long island.

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I think the car is 1927 or 1928, no earlier. I also believe although most( many) of the open cars had wire wheels , that wood wheels would have been stock factory issue, wire extra cost, but of course in the sales literature etc wire wheels made the cars look sportier so were illustrated and sometimes in very fine print it was noted that the wire wheels were an extra cost. Manufacturers were trying to sell cars - and if an option was on the car that was extra cost , so be it , it made the product more attractive to a perspective customer. I am sure if a customer bought a car that had the wire wheels, and upon showing / bragging to friends they "by the way" mentioned the wire wheels with a big " look at them" smile.

They probably loved the look but when it came for the time to clean them didn't think to much of them for the time it took to do so !

 

I love the look of the wire wheels on my 1930 Packard but disc wheels total would take about an hour to wipe down six of them, the wires - well it takes nearly  45 minutes  or more to get one cleaned off.  The joy of old cars!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Walt G
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Most certainly wire wheels and dual side mounts or double rear spares would have been an extra charge, as well as a mascot, and this early windshield wipers may have been an option, or only driver side standard. I agree with Walt as to the dates, possibly a 26, most likely a 27 or 28. Canvas tire covers, windshield wind wings, and the trunk were also accessories that were additional up charges. The car in the  photo has a single wiper for the driver.

 

After studying the car a bit and remembering a photo I have in my files of a movie still, the round top on the reverse opening door identifies this car as Brunn. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Late 1926 to probably 1928 or until the body supply was used up. The ad is dated 1926. Looks like the wind wings might have been standard.

C37E3468-278C-4AC0-A32C-98C08DC4279E.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Bob

Your last statement - well my friend this can lead to needing a lot of space, an empty wallet with cob webs ( not folding paper with deceased Presidents images on them), but also a lot of fun about defunct car makes, models and companies. But both of us have been at this pursuit of the automotive obscure even before it became as popular as it is now.

Walt

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1 hour ago, Walt G said:

Bob

Your last statement - well my friend this can lead to needing a lot of space, an empty wallet with cob webs ( not folding paper with deceased Presidents images on them), but also a lot of fun about defunct car makes, models and companies. But both of us have been at this pursuit of the automotive obscure even before it became as popular as it is now.

Walt

Free roaming the internet it looks like the photo that started it all is a 1926 Brunn  bodied Sport Touring. Is there a Lincoln vs Packard rivalry like the Ford vs Chevrolet deal? 

s-l1600.jpg

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5 hours ago, Walt G said:

I am sure if a customer bought a car that had the wire wheels, and upon showing / bragging to friends they "by the way" mentioned the wire wheels with a big " look at them" smile.

They probably loved the look but when it came for the time to clean them didn't think to much of them for the time it took to do so !

 

I love the look of the wire wheels on my 1930 Packard but disc wheels total would take about an hour to wipe down six of them, the wires - well it takes nearly  45 minutes  or more to get one cleaned off.  The joy of old cars!!!!!!!!!

Try chrome wire wheels with double whitewalls  matched to sidemounts with covers were you see the inside of the whitewall and a hair of the front side through the edge of cover  - BEEN THERE DONE THAT AND NOT FUN  (Ed has one going too with such)

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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Hi Bob ! I can't speak to the depth of market rivalry between Lincoln and Packard, but the price point would make competition inevitable. The "genetic" rivalry between Lincoln and Cadillac, both being Leland sired, might be very fertile ground for comparison. The Leland Lincoln V8 went to a 60 degree configuration, as you know. Apparently the reason was, the earlier Leland Cadillac 90 degree V8 put the secondary harmonic vibration at around 2000 rpm. That puts it smack dab in the middle of peak torque band. Imposes load and wear on the center main just where maximum force, (BMEP), will be applied to the crankshaft. I have been told that the uneven power pulses of the 60 degree V8 evidently create a resonance which cleverly pushes the max vibration far down in revs. I have driven V8 Cadillacs of the 'teens, and am bothered by their buzzing 2000 rpm vibration. For the 1924 V63, Cadillac mathematicians and engineers had produced the world's first inherently balanced V8. Wonderful engines to drive, particularly if you significantly drop the intake temperature so they perform far better on modern fuel.

 

I keep a casual eye out, looking at mid '20s Lincoln prices. They are a lot of car for the money. Especially for guys like me who love closed cars of the era every bit as much as the open cars. If you can swing it, consider hunting one. I have never driven a 60 degree V8 Lincoln, but would be eager to swap left seat position in my '24 and/or '27 Cads for the experience.    -    Carl 

Edited by C Carl
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John , I hear you. My Packard when restored by someone had new stainless steel polished spokes installed and the rims painted orange, about 40 years ago.  I am very conservative in my color preference, like a authentic "period" look. Well, the wheels I "tolerate," would cost to much to just get them painted a solid dark color,, and to get the stainless scuffed properly to make paint stick and not chip off, would be a real chore.

I have had a fair amount of people ask my opinion over the past 35-40 years as to what colors they should paint their cars - I taught art for 40 years and have a fairly decent archive of original Acme paint color chips ( 2 1/2 x 4 1/4 inches) up thru about 1935 , about 400 of them. My advice has always been to stay a bit conservative because you want to see the lines of the car not the color smacking you in the eyes. 

Edited by Walt G
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1926  123-B  4 passenger Sport Phaeton. Could be a 123-C Sport Phaeton with the aft windshield folded down. I mention this because it has outside door handles and tan canvas and dual sidemounts , nickeled windshield with windwings whereas the 123 A came with no outside door handles and rear spares and black rubberized top and trunk cover , wood wheels, and painted windshield but anything could be ordered as extra including other than black wheels which here are Buffalo wheels which were first offered in 1926 in addition to the previously used Standard Roller Bearing Company Rudge Whitworth wheels which were last used in 1926. The dual cowl was an extra cost item on 123-B sport phaeton.The body is a Brunn design built by American Body company of Buffalo, New York. Production was  147 123 A,  283 123-B sport (including extra cost Dual cowl and extra windshield) and 41 123-C Sport Dual windshield. 1926 is the last year for drum headlamps and Rudge wheels, first year for Buffalo wheels and Folberth W/S wiper and the first year a greyhound could be purchased extra.

 

Edited by rcr
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rcr, Thank you for all that information. I judge all automobiles by their appearance, and that car just has the "Look", short body and room for four people. Mechanically were 1926 Lincolns interchangeable with other years, and did they all have the same wheelbase chassis? 

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)
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There are too many differences between years to mention here but major ones include four wheel brakes standard in 1927 and later although police flyers could have four wheel brakes since 1923. Radiator and shell change 1924 , Fender redesign in 1925, Steering wheel change from "fat man" style in 1926, pointed headlamps starting 1927 plus major instrument panel redesign and air cleaner added in 1927 , larger engine 384.8 C.I.D. up from 357.8 C.I.D. and 20" wheels in 1928 on and on

 

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Interesting information on the American Body Co, so with that information I would consider this a factory body, not a semi custom. Still a good looking car, and an interesting model L. Pierce Arrow was famous for having designs by well known stylists and making the bodies themselves. Pierce bodies were usually better than most of the coach builders, BUT....they often added their own touches which were often not flattering to the car. Thanks for posting the correct detailed information on the car!

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Great additional information to clarify about the American Body Company thank you1  Bob , yes that Lincoln on the card is the one that Austin and I drove in and back to Manhattan at least twice, as well as to a local restaurant/watering hole in Bayville , NY just north of his home in Glen Cove. I was a great driving car, windshield gasket where the windshield mounted to the body leaked like a sieve in the rain (was probably the original one)  , let the rain in and it dripped straight down so it soaked your shoes and ankles. Squish. SO you got your feet and socks washed at the same time. He rarely put the rear windshield up as someone in the cars past ground or filed the bracket so the windshield would lay further back closer to the person riding back there. Well it was ground to much and if you were back there with the windshield up it sat about 1/2 inch away from you nose. .

Austin drove this car to California from where he bought it in Ohio in 1953 for the March of Dimes Rally that was taking place along the route. He also drove it up and down Pikes Peak twice as someone didn't believe even then that he had done it the first time so he wanted to prove he could and did indeed do that. He had a post card made of the car parked next to the sign at the top of Pikes Peak to prove it made it up there. I recall him telling me that story for the first time in his study/tv room while we had a glass of scotch on the rocks. His favorite scotch was Black & White - the one with the two terriers on the label - a Scottie and a Westie.

 

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16 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Is there a Lincoln vs Packard rivalry like the Ford vs Chevrolet deal? 

 

 Packard's competition was often of considered to be Peerless, and Pierce-Arrow at the time. Packard, Peerless, and Pierce-Arrow  were often referred as the 'Three 'P's' when it came to luxury cars. 

 

Craig

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Peerless never recovered from the truck production of WWI and afterwords Peerless was never anywhere near the level of Packard or Pierce. In reality the last "great" Peerless was 1914, and a single unit of 1915. They then went to their V-8 and became the same level of car as Cadillac then, which was the low side of the high end. Cars like Winton, Crane-Simplex, Pierce, and the Packard twin six were the true high end. FYI- they went to Continental engines and became an "assembled" car, and MOST were small sixes.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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22 hours ago, Walt G said:

John , I hear you. My Packard when restored by someone had new stainless steel polished spokes installed and the rims painted orange, about 40 years ago.  I am very conservative in my color preference, like a authentic "period" look. Well, the wheels I "tolerate," would cost to much to just get them painted a solid dark color,, and to get the stainless scuffed properly to make paint stick and not chip off, would be a real chore.

I have had a fair amount of people ask my opinion over the past 35-40 years as to what colors they should paint their cars - I taught art for 40 years and have a fairly decent archive of original Acme paint color chips ( 2 1/2 x 4 1/4 inches) up thru about 1935 , about 400 of them. My advice has always been to stay a bit conservative because you want to see the lines of the car not the color smacking you in the eyes. 

I just replied another post on AACA with someone asking what color to paint wheels and the rule of thumb I was always taught (for driver cars) was to paint wheels Red, Maroon, Brown, or Orange - basically the color of rust.    Brown and the Orange sort of ell out of favor though - the Brown being quite conservative and Orange being 1970'ish.

 

I saw stainless spoke wheels back in the fall on a 1931 Buick 90 Roadster leaving a Concours event  - the rims/hubs where Black and so were the brake drums and I have to say it was pretty stunning seeing them "in action" on the road and bet even more impressive at night under street lights.

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8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Peerless never recovered from the truck production of WWI and afterwords Peerless was never anywhere near the level of Packard or Pierce. In reality the last "great" Peerless was 1914, and a single unit of 1915. They then went to their V-8 and became the same level of car as Cadillac then, which was the low side of the high end. Cars like Winton, Crane-Simplex, Pierce, and the Packard twin six were the true high end. FYI- they went to Continental engines and became an "assembled" car, and MOST were small sixes.

I would agree with Ed.  My impression was Peerless built a very nice car, but post-WWI they were not offering the same level of opulence via the other two of the 3"P's as they were pre-WWI.   Obviously, they did have a few products that really "shined" via a couple models in the 20's, and especially the 1930-1931 Peerless Custom Eight, plus the Peerless V-16 Prototype is something too. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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HAC s' Lincoln is a 1929 163-B Sport Phaeton Body by Locke. It is not a 1928 as it has 42 hood louvres rather than 28 and redesigned front fenders. It also has Ford type welded spoke wheels and 7.00x20 tires. American Body Company had gone out of business at the end of 1926.October 1st 1929 saw the 176  Lincoln built bodies on sport Phaetons which replaced the locke design. 58 of these HAC types were produced in 1929. Not included are the other 163 type bodies and for the other two years as well.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks Bob, John, Ed, Craig, and others for the interesting post. My family had a Leland Lincoln, a Model L 7-Passenger Sedan from 1922-1976, and it remains the most luxurious car I have ridden in. Unfortunately, I don't know who the coachbuilder was. The Lincoln wound up in the late Ed Towe's Deer Lodge, Montana auto museum for about a decade.

 

I appreciate the bringing up of Peerless as a rival to other luxury carmakers. Ed mentioned the early products and John some of the later ones. The dozens of magazine articles and books that mention Peerless focus so heavily on the Green Dragon race cars and the V-16 and V-12 prototypes sometimes that the ones built between 1904 and 1931 get short shrift. Peerless was a ripe plum for stock takeovers, and the influences of G.E. and the General Vehicle Co. got them into building a lot of heavy trucks for war production(Packard and Pierce-Arrow produced WWI trucks, too). In 1921, Peerless was bought outright by the recent President of Cadillac, Richard Collins, and run for two years  by him and a dozen top Cadillac staff. Another was an attempt by Detroit interests, like Continental Motors Co. and investor Alfred Wallace about 1925, to bring the company more into their orbit. That move got a couple of Continental officers on the board of Peerless, and resulted in the partial use of Continental sixes and eights from 1926 to 1929. In 1930 and 1931, all the production Peerless models used Continental Straight 8s.

 

The excellent Peerless V-8 debuted for the 1916 model year and ran through 1928. The excellent 289 cu. in. Superb Six engine arrived with the help of Cadillac/Peerless President Collins, and was used from 1924 through 1929(the year Pierce-Arrow and Peerless first offered straight eight models). Deciding who was competing with or or rivaling whom is difficult in the rich world of American auto-making my grandparents lived in. So many companies! When my two Grandfathers got out of WWI, I think they had a choice of 60 car and truck builders to choose from with their saved wages if they desired a new car in 1918. In point of fact though, this is from the Peerless sales department to their dealers. It is an outline of the customers they were marketing the three main Peerless models to...folks who might otherwise buy the following cars:

 

Standard 8

  • Hupmobile 8
  • Studebaker 8
  • Marmon Mod. 69
  • Nash 8(Mod. 79)

Master 8

  • Packard 726
  • La Salle
  • Marmon 8
  • Studebaker 125
  • Graham

Custom 8

  • Cadillac
  • Marmon 8
  • Packard 745
  • Pierce-Arrow "B"
  • Lincoln

Unfortunately, Peerlesses that have survived to the present are quite rare, so you just will not see many post-WWI Peerless top shelf motorcars like Walter Miller's 1920 Mod. 56 Limousine, a 1924 Mod. 6-70 7-Pass. Sedan(none still exist, TTBOMKnowledge), or Dan Johnson's 1929 Mod. 8-125 7-Pass. Sedan. The Brass Era Peerless cars aren't too common, either.

 

Here is the Peerless introduced in 1930 that John Mereness pointed out as a model that really shined:

 

Image result for 1930 Peerless Custom Eight

 

 

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)
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Nobody else seems to have picked up the lack of front brakes.  This would establish it as 1926 or earlier.   The basic project which I bought from Perry in Idaho some while ago definitely has a 1926 serial number, and a non-brake front axle.  To me it is quite restoreable , but with some difficulties that are not impossible.   Indications are that it was probably set in place as anchorage for a travelling irrigation spray for watering potato crops.  I shall be looking out for a crankcase that has not been corroded away where it was sat on the ground with the front wheels discarded.   Most that was rustable , and some that was not had been comprehensively prayed with probably beef fat.   Perry made a lot of effort to clean it for me,  but it was quarantined at the docks to remove more.    A 1924 Lincoln was the first car that I saw and really wanted to restore in 1960,  but it was never available to me so I bought and rebuilt a 1927 Cadillac instead.   The parts book shows that right hand drive conversion parts were available,  of which the most essential are the left side exit exhaust manifold set-up.   I will probably need to make what I need,  before I get my feet tangled in my beard.

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On 4/24/2019 at 10:32 PM, Ivan Saxton said:

Nobody else seems to have picked up the lack of front brakes.  This would establish it as 1926 or earlier.   The basic project which I bought from Perry in Idaho some while ago definitely has a 1926 serial number, and a non-brake front axle.  To me it is quite restoreable , but with some difficulties that are not impossible.   Indications are that it was probably set in place as anchorage for a travelling irrigation spray for watering potato crops.  I shall be looking out for a crankcase that has not been corroded away where it was sat on the ground with the front wheels discarded.   Most that was rustable , and some that was not had been comprehensively prayed with probably beef fat.   Perry made a lot of effort to clean it for me,  but it was quarantined at the docks to remove more.    A 1924 Lincoln was the first car that I saw and really wanted to restore in 1960,  but it was never available to me so I bought and rebuilt a 1927 Cadillac instead.   The parts book shows that right hand drive conversion parts were available,  of which the most essential are the left side exit exhaust manifold set-up.   I will probably need to make what I need,  before I get my feet tangled in my beard.

Perhaps you failed to see my post from 17 march:     1926  123-B  4 passenger Sport Phaeton. Could be a 123-C Sport Phaeton with the aft windshield folded down. I mention this because it has outside door handles and tan canvas and dual sidemounts , nickeled windshield with windwings whereas the 123 A came with no outside door handles and rear spares and black rubberized top and trunk cover , wood wheels, and painted windshield but anything could be ordered as extra including other than black wheels which here are Buffalo wheels which were first offered in 1926 in addition to the previously used Standard Roller Bearing Company Rudge Whitworth wheels which were last used in 1926. The dual cowl was an extra cost item on 123-B sport phaeton.The body is a Brunn design built by American Body company of Buffalo, New York. Production was  147 123 A,  283 123-B sport (including extra cost Dual cowl and extra windshield) and 41 123-C Sport Dual windshield. 1926 is the last year for drum headlamps and Rudge wheels, first year for Buffalo wheels and Folberth W/S wiper and the first year a greyhound could be purchased extra.

Edited by rcr (see edit history)
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