Locomobile Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 (edited) Grier, Yes, if I recall correctly, those are odd size threads. The common for them, pitchlead is 24. 1/4-24 5/16-24 etc. I've joked that apparently Mason and Locomobile only had one set of change gears for the lathe - 24 tpi. Searles? Yes, I've ran across that persons name doing research on early steamers. I'll look back over some of the books I have and see what I can find. I'm thinking it was in "American Steam car pioneers" by John Bacon. This is really a must read for anyone interested in that era of automobiles. It's most likely out of print, but used copies do show up. Pay close attention to the Hand written letter by Whitney. Another good one is "Floyd Clymer's steam car scrapbook. -Ron Edited March 26, 2020 by Locomobile (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted March 26, 2020 Author Share Posted March 26, 2020 Grier and Ron, I have also ran across that unusual thread pitch on an early American-LaFrance fire engine project. It is certainly a good thing when the SAE group got more things standardized in American Industry! Harrison, It looks like Ron has shared a refernce for a read you should consider.... Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Searles Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Alan Here are some article about him from The Motor Car Journal 1900 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 Nice information for sure. Do you have any "treasures" that have survived from the life of H.N. Searles? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Hello Ron and Grier (others who may need brass Locomobile tags) I have a quote back from a reputable "lost wax" foundry for the three pieces show above. I will get in touch with you, in a PM, to discuss if the project is doable and to what level. The cost of set-up is something that is a consideration but not a project killer. Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grier Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Al, I PM you back and I also posted on our Steam Traction World Forum for anyone that might be interested in the badges. Grier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Hello Grier, I chatted with the Foundry this morning and it will be OK for us to give some time to get others interested in those pieces as shown. Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Searles Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Alan Found this die in my grandfather tool box Harrison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 4, 2020 Author Share Posted April 4, 2020 Hello Harrison, Nice early tool, die handle and dies. If only it could speak it probably has some nice "story" behind it! Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Hello Grier, Send me a PM, regarding the potential casting projects. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grier Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Al, check your pm Grier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hello Grier, I will call you sometime today at your convenience. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougTomb Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Alan, Just saw this thread this morning, from the Steam Traction World site. I built one of their Likamobiles, from the first batch, back when they were Modelworks Inc. I would be interested in a Locomobile data plate you are having cast, as well as the Locomobile step plates (2), if they are still available. Thanks, Doug Tomb, Falls Church, Virginia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 26, 2020 Author Share Posted April 26, 2020 Hello Doug, PM sent..... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 If anyone who frequents this forum, may have a need for any of the three plates shown in picture form on "Locomobile Parts For Sale", contact me and I will include your needs in the current batch of parts being replicated. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durospeed Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 Hello Mike, Thanks for the posting. Many early steam guys visit here. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 Has Covid-10 kept you from enjoying your running steam Locomobile, (if you are lucky enough to own one)? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 27, 2020 Author Share Posted November 27, 2020 Does anyone know what happened to the early Locomobile Cast Brass ID tag that was on EBAY for a couple of days from the UK? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsCato Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Hello. I need some help. I'm writing an article about one of the first cars in Norway. In these pictures the small car in pic #2 is car no 6 to be registered in Norway (1902). The large one in pic #1 and #2 is car no. 11. We know for sure that the small car is a Locomobile, but is the large one also a Locomobile, or might this be a Conrad? The registration protocol does not say the name of the car and so far I have not find any newspaper which print the name. The same question goes for the last picture - what car? The two first pictures is taken during the technical approval of the large vehicle in Norway. The owner is driving. The small car is owned by the Norwegian dealer, Fredrik Hiorth. It is claimed that he is sitting in the car in the last picture. We know for sure that he imported both Locomobiles and Conrads to Norway. Can anybody help, please? Lars Cato 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 Hello Ron, Do you have any thoughts to share about the pictures shared by our friend Lars from Norway? That is certainly a big surrey! Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Popadak Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Wow! Those two big cars are beasts! The automobile is probably as tall as most of those people in the photos. That poor little engine must be giving all it can with six passengers and the car being oversized. They don't have any features that would tell me they are Locomobiles. Those two big cars are certainly from the same family. Maybe one is a rebuild of the other but that would involve so much work I don't believe it would have been justified. I say "two" big cars as the picture on the bottom shows control knobs underneath the front seat, the body is made for passengers in front, passengers in the very back (there is no round chimney getting in the way), and the very back most "wall" is straight up and down. The lower engine in the top two photos show the crankshaft and rods being hidden. I think they are hidden as they have covers but the Toledo had a cast iron lower frame where the rods and crank were hidden and enclosed in an oil bath. As for Conrad, that would be a Roger question but Conrad was a very small producer, which means limited resources and when money is tight, it's usually not thrown at new models and development and those two cars would probably have been a large undertaking Thank you for sharing the photos. Very interesting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 5:18 AM, LarsCato said: Hello. I need some help. I'm writing an article about one of the first cars in Norway. In these pictures the small car in pic #2 is car no 6 to be registered in Norway (1902). The large one in pic #1 and #2 is car no. 11. We know for sure that the small car is a Locomobile, but is the large one also a Locomobile, or might this be a Conrad? The registration protocol does not say the name of the car and so far I have not find any newspaper which print the name. The same question goes for the last picture - what car? The two first pictures is taken during the technical approval of the large vehicle in Norway. The owner is driving. The small car is owned by the Norwegian dealer, Fredrik Hiorth. It is claimed that he is sitting in the car in the last picture. We know for sure that he imported both Locomobiles and Conrads to Norway. Can anybody help, please? Lars Cato Hello, I agree the small stanhope is likely a Locomobile, there is nothing in the pic to indicate otherwise. Pic#2 is definitely a 1902 ish Conrad Surrey. This old clipping from 1902 announces it's introduction. Your #2 pic of the same vehicle on drivers side displays about five distinctively Conrad features. Pic #3 is a different surrey, but I think it is a Conrad as well. The draglink going up the right side to the right front steering knuckle, the L-shaped handles on the sight glass, Supporting the tiller shaft with the step, the squarish swivel joint for the tiller handle are all Conrad features. The front of the body looks to be a Locomobile Stanhope B design. I'll stick with it is a Conrad as well, possible early 1903. Here is a Model 70 Conrad in Denmark: Cool old pictures, thanks for sharing. Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Popadak Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Locomobile Ron is good. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 Nice Conrad over in Denmark. How many Conrad projects/cars are located here in the US and Canada? Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, alsfarms said: Nice Conrad over in Denmark. How many Conrad projects/cars are located here in the US and Canada? Al Al, there are only two model 70 Conrad's one in Denmark, one in Ohio and the one model 65 that I'm working on that I know of. Our meets are very small. 😁 There is allegedly one in the UK, but if the pictures I seen are of the same car, it's doubtful. And I tried to contact the guy and never received a response. It looks as though it's on Locomobile or Grout chassis running gear. Ohio model 70. Conrad mystery car and may be somewhat similar to the Lars mystery car. The pic is labeled Conrad Steamer Edited January 11, 2021 by Locomobile (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsCato Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I can't see my reply has been published - I try again. I want to thank this club and especially Ron for valuable information. These cars have been misinterpreted for Locomobiles in several books in Norway and the Conrad-name has not been mentioned. The steam car guys in Norway have suspected that they probably are Conrads, though. The history of this car (with all the people) ist that it was put into passenger traffic i Norway, but nails from horseshoes made the wheel puncture all the time. The story also tells the problems with the heater made flames rise on the side of the car, scared the costumers. It seems that the car was put out of traffic within a month. Thank you so much this information Lars 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Ron and Lars, Do you happen to know history on the Denmark Conrad? Technically, how does the Conrad compare with the Locomobile of the same vintage? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Conrad logo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 Nice. Is this a step plate for access? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 1:28 AM, LarsCato said: I can't see my reply has been published - I try again. I want to thank this club and especially Ron for valuable information. These cars have been misinterpreted for Locomobiles in several books in Norway and the Conrad-name has not been mentioned. The steam car guys in Norway have suspected that they probably are Conrads, though. The history of this car (with all the people) ist that it was put into passenger traffic i Norway, but nails from horseshoes made the wheel puncture all the time. The story also tells the problems with the heater made flames rise on the side of the car, scared the costumers. It seems that the car was put out of traffic within a month. Thank you so much this information Lars Lars, You are very welcome and I am very happy I could help with your project. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I would like to thank you for sharing additional information about the history of these early Norway vehicles. I enjoy reading any of this early history involving actual steam car usage at that time. If you have any other information about them, I would enjoy reading about it. I will provide a little more info about Conrads in my response to Al as follows. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) On 1/12/2021 at 9:19 AM, alsfarms said: Ron and Lars, Do you happen to know history on the Denmark Conrad? Technically, how does the Conrad compare with the Locomobile of the same vintage? Al Hi Al, How did Locomobile and Conrad compare? The Locomobile was a much more highly polished vehicle, most likely more reliable as it was more refined due to the much higher production numbers. They set many records. First car up Mt Washington, first to drive from Buffalo to New York city 500 miles and many others. All the metal parts were Nickle plated, causing Rudyard Kipling to label them "The Nickel plated fraud" apparently he wasn't fond of the little steamer. Their problems: Too lightly built and easily damaged on the very early rough roads with tree stumps in them. The bodies broke down as the engine and boiler were simply mounted on wood crossmembers. If one looks at the early body it resembles a crate, and I wonder if that is where the slang term for early cars came from "Crate". The Conrads were less polished and from what I can tell more crudely built, but they were built stronger. And heavier. The one feature that made them far superior to the Locomobile was the angle iron subfframe (as pictured) inside the body that the boiler and engine mounted on. This strongly supported that mounting and also supported the wood body along its length to prevent it failing in the middle like Locomobile and others did. There was far less nickle plating and more painted parts. Their problems: Likely less refined as Lars alludes to about fire flaring up the side and scaring the occupants, the burner was likely a poor design and not enough time had been spent resolving issues, and it may have been operator poorly trained as well. The burner is one of the most problematic and critical aspects of these early steam cars. The steering geometry on the Conrads is unusual too and some of the components like the knuckles are too lightly built. If I had to pick one to show off : Locomobile Pick one to drive and rely on: Conrad. The Denmark Conrad is in their transportation museum and I am pals with the curators, we have never discussed the history of this vehicle only many of it's features. I will ask them about it. They have been very helpful with our restoration and we are grateful for that. Ron Edited January 14, 2021 by Locomobile (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 I can see that the Conrad is much more substantial. Nice picture! Have you made first steam yet? Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 minute ago, alsfarms said: I can see that the Conrad is much more substantial. Nice picture! Have you made first steam yet? Al Yes we fired it up and drove it on the initial assembly. Ran really well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 Ron, Are you only working on Locomobile and Conrad, or do you have something else "steam" lurking in the background? Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Here is a link to the huge Locomobile literature collection now held by the Bridgeport Public Library. They are very nice and helpful to deal with. If you need or want anything listed give them a try. The list is extensive!! https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://bportlibrary.org/hc/wp-content/uploads/BHC-MSS-0003-Records-of-the-Locomobile-Company-of-America.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwipp-LMyrTqAhXiWhUIHVFzBakQFjAIegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2Du2pN8iz6j7WGKE73Yuf6 Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 1:42 PM, alsfarms said: Here is a link to the huge Locomobile literature collection now held by the Bridgeport Public Library. They are very nice and helpful to deal with. If you need or want anything listed give them a try. The list is extensive!! https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://bportlibrary.org/hc/wp-content/uploads/BHC-MSS-0003-Records-of-the-Locomobile-Company-of-America.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwipp-LMyrTqAhXiWhUIHVFzBakQFjAIegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2Du2pN8iz6j7WGKE73Yuf6 Al Al, thank you for info Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 Hello Ron, I ran across a small discussion on the AACA "What is It" forum. Here is the lead picture of the top of an early steam engine. Additional pictures are on the other forum. I don't think any of the participants in that discussion are steam guys. Maybe you can help out with the identity here and on the other forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) What ongoing work is currently underway with your Locomobile that will prepare it for spring driving and summer tours? Al Edited February 18, 2021 by alsfarms spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom1356 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 On 4/7/2019 at 11:06 AM, Locomobile said: Overview. Background on Geo Eli Whitney, Boston Tech graduate (MIT), with extensive steam experience designing and building steamboats and steam power plants, incidentally testing one of his boats, he met Sylvester Roper and was hired by same and worked for him for a period of time. George grew up working in his Uncles Amos Whitney's machine shop, uncle Amos went on to form Pratt and Whitney. George as a young teenager built a scale locomotive under his uncles tutelage. He is also the Great grandson of famed inventor Eli Whitney. George had a machine shop in Boston. Probably by inspiration from Roper who built steam cars and steam bikes earlier, George set out to build his own steam vehicles of which he built several, the "Motorette" was his breakthrough design that ran the best and changed everything. While working in his shop he had many folks that would come by and watch his progress, many would hang around all day - every day, including the Stanley twins, one or both. One guy showed up named Charles DP Gibson and had some ideas about building his own car but had no place to build it. "Whit" as people called him, allowed him to build his car there. Gibson was a afraid people were going to steal his ideas, so he curtained off one corner of the shop and wouldn't allow anyone in there. After a few weeks of clanging and banging, he stepped out from behind the curtain wiping his hands and admitted his car would never run and immediately offered to buy Whitney's motorette which was almost completed. Whitney shot him a ridiculous price of $25.000. To Whitney's surprise, Gibson bought it. Whitney helped him to get the car home. Gibson immediately disassembled the car, made drawings and filed for patent on the design of the car, Whitney filed for patent right after and then turned around and sued Gibson for stealing his design. Whitney won the lawsuit as he had many witnesses to corroborate the events. He won the lawsuit and 40,000 , but lost his wife to Gibson's attorney. Then he had to pay her half of the suit he had just been awarded. Whitney took another motorette design that he built for GB Upham , a Boston Attorney to "Mechanics Building, Boston" for an expose'. The Stanley's showed up and while the car was stored in a building, they went in and photographed every aspect of the car (they owned Eastman Kodak and were very familiar with cameras and photography). They went back and immediately began building a steamer from the information they had gleaned. They made some changes like wire winding the boiler for higher pressure, and they patented everything they could, essentially refinements to Whitney's steam system. They showed up to the next show at Charles River park, Boston and with 100 pounds higher steam pressure outran everyone in every aspect, they immediately received 200 orders for their car. They only built two or three reportedly "crude" vehicles that looked almost identical to the Motorette, and had parts for another few hundred when John B Walker showed up and offered to buy their automobile business. They allegedly shot him a price of 250,000 dollars, but Walker didn't have that sort of money, so he put out a plea for investor's which attracted the attention of Anzi Barber, the "Asphalt King", he was paving the streets in cities in the northeast and was a millionaire. They acquired the Stanley's automobile business consisting of a few hundred orders and the parts for around 200 cars and the few patents they had, and Whitney went to work for Locomobile as design consultant and that is when the Locomobile design, refined and polished as we know it today was produced. The Whitney patent was granted in 1901 and they turned around and sued the Stanley's because the Stanleys sold them rights to something they didn't own the dominant patent on the vehicle applied for by and now held by Whitney and themselves. Around 1903 the Stanley's began building steamers again with a car that would get around the Whitney patent, but they used the chain drive with adjustable chain stretcher strut and got sued again and that is how the engine wound up on the rear axle and using gears instead of a chain. Eventually, around 1904 Locomobile transitioned away from steam. Whitney left Locomobile in 1905 and went on to design and patent asphalt paving equipment for Barber. The Stanleys continued on building steamers that avoided the Whitney patents. It's a subject of lore that the Stanleys bought the patents back from Locomobile, but I've never found anything to corroborate that, and logically, why would they? Even Whitney admitted in later years, the Stanley had evolved in to a far superior design. Locomobile at this time had license from Whitney to build the car on his patent, and they proceeded to issue quitclaims to others building on their design or else. Mobile, Milwaukee etc. And why I believe the almost 70 steam car companies closed up shop then or very soon after. Whitney went to England and licensed Brown's to build his steamer over there. This is based on handwritten letters from Whitney that appear in the book "Early steam car pioneers" by John Bacon. And magazine articles in the 1900 - 1903 "Horseless age" and "Motor review". Whitney's obituary states that he sold his steam car business to Locomobile for 250 thousand. If one looks at all the evidence, it's clear to see that the Locomobile was really the Whitney Motorette. I'll post some of the clippings. -Ron This is an amazing history. Thank you so much for posting it. Your car is a gem. Do you have other Whitney related items? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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